Talk:Marriage bed of Henry VII

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 15:38, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

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• ... that the marriage bed of Henry VII, valued at £20 million, lay dismantled for a while in a hotel car park? "It was found dismantled in the car park of the Chester Redlands Hotel " from: Payne, Samantha (20 March 2015). "Henry VIII bed: Royal treasure dumped in Chester car park is where Tudor king was conceived". International Business Times. Retrieved 2 February 2020.
  • ALT1:... that Henry VII of England may have helped to design his own marriage bed? "Foyle ... conjectures that Henry had some agency in the bed's design" from: Morgan, Hollie L. S. (2017). Beds and Chambers in Late Medieval England: Readings, Representations and Realities. Boydell & Brewer. p. 7. ISBN 978-1-903153-71-0.
  • ALT2:... that carvings on the marriage bed of Henry VII show the Red Rose of Lancaster and the White Rose of York as well as fertility and religious symbols?": Both the red rose of Lancaster and white rose of York appear in the carvings ... Depictions of Adam and Eve in the headboard’s central panel mirror early portraits of the royal couple, and fertility symbols surrounding the biblical first man and woman speak to the urgency of securing the Tudors’ dynastic legacy by producing a rapid succession of male heirs." from: Solly, Meilan (13 February 2019). "Henry VII's Marriage Bed May Have Spent 15 Years in a British Hotel's Honeymoon Suite". Smithsonian Magazine. Retrieved 2 February 2020.
  • ALT3:... that the marriage bed of Henry VII, purchased for £2,200 in 2010, may now be worth £20 million?"The 500-year-old relic is now believed to be England's only surviving medieval royal state bed and is worth an estimated £20m ($29.7m). It was found dismantled in the car park of the Chester Redlands Hotel and was later bought at auction by Ian Coulson in 2010 for just £2,200 as a "Victorian Bed"." from: Payne, Samantha (20 March 2015). "Henry VIII bed: Royal treasure dumped in Chester car park is where Tudor king was conceived". International Business Times. Retrieved 2 February 2020.
  • ALT4:... that the marriage bed of Henry VII was later used in a hotel honeymoon suite in Chester, England?"nearly ended up in the trash after spending 15 years masquerading as a Victorian poster bed in a Chester hotel’s wood-paneled honeymoon suite." from:Solly, Meilan (13 February 2019). "Henry VII's Marriage Bed May Have Spent 15 Years in a British Hotel's Honeymoon Suite". Smithsonian Magazine. Retrieved 2 February 2020.

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/French ironclad Hoche

Moved to mainspace by Dumelow (talk). Self-nominated at 15:55, 6 April 2020 (UTC).

Review

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: The first hook seems best. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:43, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

This bed and the publicity around it should be treated with great caution. The story of the Henry VII bed has been generated almost entirely by press coverage and not from verifiable sources. The hypothesis of the 'Henry VII bed' has not been published in a peer reviewed journal and is not accepted by any person or organisation with specialist knowledge in this field. Since its re-emergence in 2010 bed has been rejected as a 19th century pastiche by dealers, auctioneers, museum curators and furniture historians. None of the putative history of the bed before 2010, as presented in this Wikipedia entry, has been or can be substantiated as fact. Scientific evidence which conclusively demonstrates that the bed cannot be medieval has been supressed in all press coverage. The wood of the bed has been tested by both dendrochronological and Carbon 14 analysis and both tests confirm that the wood is not medieval but 19th century. The symposium at the V&A was not organised or sanctioned by the V&A: the lecture theatre was merely hired for the day and used for the publicity. The proposed BBC 4 programme was never made because, having consulted specialists in the field, the BBC realised the story did not stand scrutiny. Please consider doing likewise and either modifying or withdrawing this page. Woodforde (talk) 10:28, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the info Woodforde, do you have any sources (papers, articles etc.)? We need WP:RELIABLESOURCES to support any changes - Dumelow (talk) 17:59, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

The conjectural history of the bed has been created by Dr Jonathan Foyle, and he is responsible for generating the misleading press publicity about it. He has published one quasi-academic article about the bed: J. Foyle, ‘George Shaw and his Unwitting Discovery of Henry VII’s Bed’, Saddleworth Historical Society Bulletin, 47, no. 1 (2017), 1-5. No article has appeared in any peer reviewed journal because Foyle's claims have been rejected by every knowledgeable authority - dealers, auction houses, museum curators and furniture historians. The V&A Department of Furniture Textiles and Fashion has a large file on the bed which includes dendrochronology and carbon 14 dating reports and a surface analysis. However, Foyle has rejected the dating evidence, despite the fact that the laboratories involved are confident of their results. Two other beds of this design are known to exist and both are 19th century. One was made for the Duke of Northumberland in 1847 and the other for an unknown patron at about the same date. The maker was George Shaw of Saddleworth (1810-76), who in the 1840s faked a large quantity of 'Tudor' and other furniture for aristocratic clients. He later became a respectable Gothic revival architect. You can find out about George Shaw in the following sources: G. B. Howcroft, 'George Shaw of St Chad’s Saddleworth 1810-1876. Architect and Church Furnisher (Saddleworth, 1972), 3-5; M. Hyde and A. Petford, ‘George Shaw of St Chad’s: The Making of a Provincial Architect’, Transactions of the Lancashire and Cheshire Antiquarian Society, 102 (2006), 36-52; A. Petford & M. Buckley, ‘George Shaw and the Duke of Northumberland’, Saddleworth Historical Society Bulletin, 47, no. 1 (2017), 6-18; A. Bowett, ‘Antiquarianism in Early Victorian Rochdale: The Trinity Chapel at St Chad’s’, Regional Furniture, 34 (2020), 143-162. The latter mentions the 'Henry VII' bed in passing but does not directly address its authenticity. You can also find information about Shaw here: https://bifmo.history.ac.uk/entry/shaw-george-1810-1876. Hope this helps Woodforde (talk) 09:41, 4 February 2021 (UTC)