Talk:Marsh Arabs

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==Marsh Arabs are living Sumerians


Ancient Sumerian culture preserved in the marshes.

http://www.laputanlogic.com/articles/2004/01/24-0001.html

http://www.laputanlogic.com/articles/2004/01/28-0002.html

http://www.laputanlogic.com/articles/2004/04/14-0001.html

"In the veins of the Ahwar Arabs there runs Sumerian blood more than that in the veins of any other Arabian tribe. Only those Ahwar Arabs are the grandchildren of the ancient civilization." - World-renowned Norwegian explorer and archaeologist Thor Heyerdahl.[1]

Suggested merger[edit]

User:Evanemak argues that since Madan (people) and Marsh Arabs cover the same topic, the two articles should be merged. I have reformatted it from a move request to a merger request. --Stemonitis 11:39, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Link to Sumerians[edit]

The cited article by Hamid K. Ahmed draws a very vague line between the ancient Sumerians and the Marsh Arabs. He writes: Some theorize the Ma'dan might be the descendants of the Sumerians, due to similarities they share in their primitive way of life.

However, this is an extremely speculative statement, without hard evidence. Ahmed writes: In his film Cradle of Civilisation, Michael Wood describes some recognizable designs that are seen in Sumerian carvings 5000 years ago. This is anything but scientific evidence.

Claiming Sumerian ancestry has been fashionable among many peoples. It is usually motivated by the desire to extend ones own glorious history into the depth of millennia, but, no, it cannot be taken serious and should not be presented as factual in an encyclopaedia.

The Sumerian language has been extinct for almost 4 millennia. Already around 2600 BC - more than 4600 years ago(!), they lost their dominance of Mesopotamia to the Akkadians.

Therefore the phrase "it is believed" should be replaced by much more cautious language (if not stripped altogether), the above wording "some theorise" probably being a good choice. --Johannes Rohr 21:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are many sources which show the links between Marsh Arabs and ancient indigenous inhabitants of Mesopotamia, which is an issue for anthropologists, not scientists (we are talking about humans and civilisation here, not test tubes) and you can do a Google search to find them. Also there are two sources there, and I can put many more if needed. Marsh Arabs are not "motivated by the desire to extend ones own glorious history into the depth of millennia" as you would like to claim. In fact they are the least nationalistic of peoples in Iraq (in fact they have never even been very politically organised) and have been one of the most persecuted groups there, having been permanently displaced from their natural habitat by Saddam. Khorshid 22:36, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I went through most of the links you provided (some where unavailable for various reasons). Most were non-scientific. And there was not a single study among them, that specifically supports your case. They use language like "it is thought", "it is believed" or "The culture of the Marsh Arabs as we now know it is, in a sense, the heir and descendant of the Sumerian culture." etc. This is all extremely vague and by no means the same as biological descent, as the phrase "direct descendants suggests. I firmly believe that it is virtually impossible to proof descent from a society which has been gone for almost four millennia. Please provide hard facts: Is there any specific reputable scientific source, that supports this extremely bold claim? --Johannes Rohr 22:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I added some data from the United Nations Environmental Programme that seems to suggest the Marshes have experiences significant improvements since 2003

http://www.grid.unep.ch/product/poster/images/iraqi_marshlandsb

Assessment[edit]

I have expanded this article very substantially over the past few days with referenced material, added an infobox, restructured it, etc. - hopefully it will be a bit closer to B-class now. Svejk74 (talk) 21:56, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

'Sumerian' links[edit]

This is, as commented above, a fringe theory at best - much like Heyerdahl's similarly speculative writings about Easter Island. We need to balance this view with the corresponding (and indeed, probably mainstream) view as represented by Thesiger, noting the heavy Bedouin influence on the Marsh Arabs. Their customs are fundamentally those of the desert nomads - not those of Sumeria, although there are possibke links in terms of housebuilding.Svejk74 (talk) 11:26, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • This is just your personal opinion that you're pushing, and it's based on a lack of knowledge. You simply haven't done the kind of research that Heyerdahl did on the Madan. It doesn't make a difference if they have adopted some bedouin influences over the millenia. Izzedine 07:19, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's not my "personal opinion" that I'm pushing: the 'links' between the Madan and Sumerian culture have never been proven, or for that matter appeared in any reputable scientific source. We cannot give undue weight to such theories. Ghareeb, after all (in the reference given) states that there is no concrete evidence that there are any links between the Marsh Arabs and Sumeria. Custom and language, on the other hand, show that there are at least some clear and provable links between the marsh tribes and desert nomads.
    • As for Heyerdahl, he is in no way a credible source on history - his theories on Easter Island, for example, show a reliance on pseudo-history and speculation of the worst kind. We need a balancing viewpoint. Svejk74 (talk) 10:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • You'll note, incidentally, that I haven't even removed the Heyerdahl reference; I haven't even drawn attention to the fact that it's based on pure speculation. I've simply given equal weight to another academic viewpoint. Svejk74 (talk) 10:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Allow me to reiterate my concerns:

  • There are no proven links between the Madan and Sumeria.
  • Heyerdahl can be cited as a source of this opinion, but he doesn't have the final say on the matter; he is not an academic historian, and his other theories remain somewhat fringe. I am unaware of any academic who has done any more than posit a possible link. Does Heyerdahl offer any concrete proof for his assertion?
  • The Madan speak a dialect of Arabic, and their placenames are in Arabic.
  • Their social customs, in many respects, are derived from those of the Bedouin.
  • Many of their tribal names indicate Bedouin origins.
  • Their legends and oral traditions, as pointed out by Thesiger (who spent far more time living among them than Heyerdahl did, I suspect, and spoke excellent Arabic) refer to the desert, not to Sumeria.

While it's an interesting point that their boatbuilding techniques, for example, show some similarities to the Sumerians (although it should be pointed out that many of these techniques were actually practised by Sabaean craftsmen, who worked as boatbuilders in the Marshes) the link between the Marsh Arab culture and the city-states of Sumeria is very tenuous. There may be some genetic link, but none has ever been proven, and in any case it seems probable that much of the Madan's descent is from tribes who moved eastward into the area long after Sumeria existed. Their cultural traditions and language certainly indicate such a provenance. Svejk74 (talk) 11:35, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Pseudo-science; this is a typical time anacronism and not reality..! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.71.123.63 (talk) 22:01, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

3rd opinion[edit]

It looks to me taht the addition of correctly sourced material by Svejk74 is perfectly proper and its reversion by Izzedine is not justified and in fact is edit warring. Articles shoudl be build by consensus, not by reverting things that you do not agree with. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:28, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Autonomy[edit]

What about Autonomy for Marsh Arabs?--Kaiyr (talk) 11:06, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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"Genetics" useless unless interpretation included[edit]

A long list of cryptic data is useless in an encyclopedia for the wider public. Add explanations and interpretations, or else remove it.

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Shroogs are also referred as southerners[edit]

Shroogs are people from indian origin and came from the east and populated not only the marshlands but all of southern Iraq and some parts of the capital They were hated for years especially under baathists and abbasids They are seen mostly as Ignorant traitorous brown people And there population was about 25% under baathism but went up to nearly 50% After 2003 They are hated by the rest of the population of Iraq and only a few of southerners are actually seen as good people 37.239.193.14 (talk) 09:53, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]


lol this is the dumbest thing I've ever read, they are hated for a sectarian reason (being shia), not for Ignorant traitorous brown people

If they are hated for being ignorant, it is because of persecution by sunni regimes and depriving them of education

if they are hated for being traitorous then iraq is a made up state why should they fight for a country made by european colonialism?

if they hated for being brown then all iraqis are brown. white people only exist in europe and north america not in iraq and the middle east.

If they are of Indian origin, why don't they have a haplogroups like R1a, R1b, H, L, J2?

what are some words borrowed from Hindi in their dialect?

are there migrations from India to southern Iraq have been recorded historically?

Marsh Arabs are descended from the Nabataeans of Iraq many arab historians mentioned them for being (((the people who inhabiting the marshes and speak the Aramaic))). this is proof that they are the the native inhabitants of Iraq. while sunni arabs of iraq are new arrivals in Iraq, Tribes such as Shammar, Anza, Dulaim and Zabid have been in Iraq only since the 19th century as nomads!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.238.22.23 (talk) 20:21, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Marsh Arabs" vs "Ma'dan"[edit]

It seems odd that "Ma'dan" is identified as a pejorative exonym several places in the article but is used throughout as the standard word for these people. In the absence of contrary information, I suggest replacing it with "Marsh Arab". 2001:569:BF0E:A900:B8D6:2C4F:26C7:E693 (talk) 15:01, 2 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article picture has nothing to do with marsh arabs[edit]

The main photo used in this article is irrelevant and does not depict marsh arabs, their style of dress, or their lifestyle. The old photo of a girl infront of a straw house was much better. 170.223.207.1 (talk) 15:31, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ma'dan is their actual name[edit]

Please change the article to Maadan because it is their actual name and the Marsh Arabs are an Orientalist name by some Westerners. DoingTheNeedful (talk) 18:57, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reuben Levy (1924). "A Note on the Madan of Lower Iraq". Journal of the American Oriental Society. Vol.44 (1924), pp. 130. Quote: "I had occasion to spend six months in the marsh lands south of ancient Babylon. In the great series of swamps and shallow lakes (the best known being the Hammar Lake) that have for centuries covered many hundred square miles of once fertile land, are harboured a number of tribes who are for the sake of convenience called Marsh Arabs by us, though the Bedawin Arabs, and even town Arabs, refuse to recognise them as fellow Arabs and cognate with themselves." — Preceding unsigned comment added by DoingTheNeedful (talk • contribs) 20:02, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Marsh Arabs just Arabs[edit]

Note that Marsh Arabs have no relation to Zut, Gypsies, Kawliya, or South East Asia. Those are just baseless claims made with sectarian and racist agendas. The biggest two tribes in the governorate of Maysan are Albu-Muhammed and Bani-Lam. 1- Albu-Muhammed are descendants of Sheik Mohammad Al-Azawi who emigrated from the governorate of Diyala to Maysan in the year 1741 AD. Source: "موجز تاريخ عشائر العمارة" by Muhammad Baqer Al-Jalali P.58. 2. Bani-Lam are descendants of Sheik Barak who emigrated from Mount Amil to Iraq, Maysan. Source Source: "موجز تاريخ عشائر العمارة" by Muhammad Baqer Al-Jalali P.11. It is also worth noting that many genetic studies have proven that Marsh Arabs have the highest concentration of haplogroup J1 in the world. J1 is the Arabian haplogroup and it is not present in India. So how can Marsh Arabs be of indian decent when they have been proven to be pure Arabs?! Source: Al-Zahery, N., Pala, M., Battaglia, V. et al. In search of the genetic footprints of Sumerians: a survey of Y-chromosome and mtDNA variation in the Marsh Arabs of Iraq. BMC Evol Biol 11, 288 (2011). https://doi.org/10.1186/1471-2148-11-288 Ya'rub98M (talk) 13:00, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php/article/13793
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