Talk:Martin Luther/archive 2005 Sept 19

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Recant at Diet of Worms

Dear Someone Else:

...Even before the Diet, a demand is not made that Luther recant. The question was: do you stand by what you taught in these books or do you reject them..... CTSWyneken 14:58 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

that is, he was asked to recant, and his speech, as he himself wrote it down for posterity, is a refusal to recant, not a defense. -- Someone else 20:59 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Someone Else -- IIRC, he wrote down the speech later. Recant implies that the meeting was in some way a formal heresy trial -- it wasn't, at least not in the sense of those of reformers like Hus. But it's an imperial Diet -- not an ecclesiastical one. The fact that Luther wrote down his speech as a refusal to recant doesn't mean that he was asked to do so -- Luther was very belligerent, after all, and the record as mentioned above is perhaps less biased. Boots

He did indeed record his speech later, but there's no conflicting account. He was asked two questions: are these your books, and do you recant them. There was no opportunity given for "defense" of the books, though I'm sure he, and the princes who supported him, would have liked one. Worms was not a trial, as Luther was already excommunicated: it was a chance for him to recant and avoid the penalty, which was to be enforced by the Emperor. I really don't understand why one would use the word "defense": it's not justified by any account of the events at the Diet. -- Someone else 00:09 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)
It is justified by the accounts of the principle reports by Justus Jonas, Luther's friend and Nuncio Aleander, the pope's emissary. It is summarized in the currently most respected of Luther biographies, Martin Brecht's three volume work.
I'm afraid you have the questions wrong. They were, according to the papal nuncio, Aleander, "First, do you acknowledge that these books here (a bundle of his books and writings in Latin and German was shown him) now named publically to you one by one, which are published with your name as author, are yours? Do you recognize them or not? Next. do you wish to retract and recall them and their contents or to cling to them henceforth and to insist on them?" [Luther's Works, vol. 32, p. 124] In fact, quite a bit of time was given for him to defend the works.
It was likely that Charles V wanted the Diet to condemn Luther and was using it as a way to please the princes that insisted that Luther had been condemned without being heard out and answered. The summons was cast in that form. Luther had every right to expect to be heard. The nuncio was angered that Luther was given this opportunity. In the end, the Reichtag did not render its opinion, pleading for time. Charles ended up issuing the edict on his own authority and did not insist on its implementation by all princes. In short, Luther was intended to identify his work, and to state which he would stand by and which he would retract and why. He had hoped for an all out debate, which was not to be. The nuncio and emperor had hoped for a renunciation or condemnation, which was not to be.
On these facts, I believe that "defend" is quite appropriate, but not a perfect phrase. "testify" works, although it doesn't say about what. CTSWyneken 22:06 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I believe my summary of the questions is accurate, and my only difficulty with the section as it now stands is the hand-waving about whether he said "Here I stand, etc." -- I think it would be better to remove

Because Melanchthon was close to the reformer, he may well be reporting the story as Luther told it. However, we have no way of knowing for sure these words were ever spoken. Of course it is quite plausible that he may have said them to himself, rather than out loud. This might present a natural explanation why such eminently quotable words were not recorded contemporaneusly.

as it's suppositional, conversational, and non-encyclopedic in tone. (And needs to spell "contemporaneously" better). But as I've removed it before and it's been restored, I won't persist. If you feel it improves the article, I won't play with it. -- Someone else 23:25 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Tone of Article

Since the parts you probably would consign conversational, suppositional, non-encyclopaedic etc. in tone and poorly spelled as well, are most likely from my keyboard; let me just say that I have no personal fondness for them at all. Just trying to find a weasel-worded solution, when the alternative seemed to be to recount just the supporting fact that it was actually written down a whole (woohoo!) 50 years after. If there were a way to just say that he did not in fact probably say the words at all, that would accord perfectly with my sense of what can be justified historically. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 00:11 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Well, yes, I was suggesting that less "weasel" would be better<g>, however well-intentioned. I had originally thought that, just as you say, simply indicating that the words were first "recorded" 50 years after they were supposedly uttered would be acceptable, but apparently they are hard words for some people to give up... very much like "Nevertheless, it does move".... -- Someone else 01:32 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

On "Here I Stand..."

On the "Here I stand quote..." 400 years of tradition are really hard to fight! Tell folks Bogie never said: "Play it again, Sam!" After just a few decades! The trouble with discussing debates about such things is fairness does not allow for brevity in what should be a general article. I feel the same about the nailed-or-mailed debate, which is more-or-less still going on, with the majority settling around both. Say that briefly! 8-)
I'm inclined to take most of it into the Wiki-equivalent of a content note... another short article. That way the scholarly debate can be discussed for those who love trivia, but keep the narrative clean. CTSWyneken 01:42 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Peasants' War

Boots:

re: Peasant's war: nicely done! Some minor tweaking may help (Luther tried to mediate between the Lords and Peasants first, with uncharacteristically mild language, but, in his view, got for his efforts a peasantry that twisted his words, thus his Against the Murdering, Raping Hordes of Peasants Otherwise, very good work.

re: the excommunication, I think this event needs its own section. The intro does help the section on the Diet, as the article now stands. CTSWyneken 22:13 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Lightning-strike legend

Hi,
I'm curious about what documented basis there may be for the lightning-strike ("Help, St. Anne..") legend? I see it is described as a legend at http://www.luther.de/en/legenden.html
I've read that a more likely explanation was that Luther became a monk to escape (and offend) his abusive parents, and that the lightning legend was created later. Harris7 20:44, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Answer

Dear Harris7:
According to Brecht, the account comes from Crotus Rubianus, a friend of Luther from the days before his entry into the monastery, in letter 213, 16 October 1519. WA br 1:543, line 105ff. CTSWyneken 12:21, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)
...and further on, from Luther himself: WA 8:573, Lines 20ff, WA TR no. 116, WA TR 4 no. 4414, WA TR 4 no. 4704, WA TR 5 no. 5373, WA BR 2:384, Line 80. The text fro TR 4 nol 4704 says, it part: "On the 16th July (1539), St. Alexis Day, Luther observed: "Today is the anniversary of my entrance into the monastery at Erfurt." Then he began to relate how he made the vow. Two weeks earlier while travelling near Stotternheim, not far from Erfurt, he was so frightened by a flash of lightening that he exclaimed in terror: "Help me, St. Anne, I will become a monk!" [Hillerbrand, p. 23] CTSWyneken 14:42, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

"crude" statements?

From the article: "Luther's work contains a number of statements that modern readers would consider rather crude."

Then just below are some nasty racists remarks, attributed to him unless I misread the article, which appear to advocate burning down the houses and driving the Jews into poverty and exile, and advocate that robbers should be allowed to set upon them on the highways.

Are these what is meant by "crude"? If so, "crude" seems a bit euphemistic, for what I might term "racist almost to being genocidal".

The article still needs quite a bit of work, and this section is one of them. Luther lived five centuries ago and his language is quite a bit different than we expect of educated folk today. There are passages which talk about bathroom activities and such which we do not quote here, nor do I think we should. I'm leaning towards streamlining and generalizing most of it, taking tangents, as I believe this is, into side articles, or leaving them out altogether. This is, after all, an encyclopedia, not a full-blown biography.--CTSWyneken 20:27, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
My point was that the article says "rather crude", and then displays appallingly nasty comments, as I said, appearing racist nearly to genocidal characteristic. I'm not sure whether you are arguing that we should consider these nasty comments only "rather crude" because everyone was crude then (not only don't I believe that, but I don't follow the logic; it says modern readers, so you should express modern judgement, not some smoothed over euphemism).


Streamlining sounds like a euphemism for bowdlerizing. Instead of removing information, why not add information to keep the whole in balance? Information should be removed if it's wrong or repeats something said better elsewhere in the entry. We have to deal with the realities of life and history at Wikipedia. There is no length limit on entries. Martin Luther might be even as long as Britney Spears. Longer even. Wetman 20:34, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I think there's a balance somewhere between provide a lot of good information and writing something so long and confusing that no one will read it. In fact, the irony is I just got finished lengthening the section on the Diet of Worms!
On the other hand, I, for one, hate scrolling to read long articles and often don't bother to fish through or print them. I'm sure a lot of folk out there feel the same way. No, I'm also not for "bowelderizing." What I mean by streamlining is keeping something flowing in a straight line. For example, stopping to explain why some folk feel Luther nailed the theses, others that he mailed them and most folk that he did both, distracts from getting a clear understanding of how things happened in 1517. So, I've opened a short article on the 95 theses and put the info there. When I get a chance, I will take the sentences out of the Luther article and link to it. I think other areas can benefit from it. As elsewhere on the web... want more? Just click.--CTSWyneken 20:55, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The "Martin Luther and Judaism" section seems to be exceptionally NPOV and well written to me at present, and I don't see a current need for it to be either added to or taken away from. On the other hand, Wiki is not paper, and I would generally like to see a massive amount more content added to every article, and for the number of articles to multiply exponentially as well ;) Sam Spade 07:28, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Government position?

I speak from ignorance, but I thought that Luther held some sort of governing position. Actually, I thought I'd read that he was some sort of religious despot, or dictatorial church tyrant--but I'm not sure if that is anti-Lutheran sentiment that I've seen disguised as history. In fact, this is why I read the article, but I saw no mention of any such.


Luther never held a position in government, nor would his theology permit such. He was the first to advocate the notion of separation of church and state, although his concept was very different from ours. He felt a government had a duty to God to promote Christianity, fight its enemies and punish blasphemy. His role -- and that of anyone in the church -- was to advise the government as to God's will. Luther's style was quite polemic, like the most partisan of our politicians on steriods. When read out of context and century, he can sound very extreme. What most people fail to realize is that everyone wrote that way in the sixteenth century. This is the day of Vlad the Impaler, Sueleman (sp.?) the Great of the Ottoman Empire, the Spanish Inquisition and the Conquestadors, Aztec sacrifices of the beating hearts of their enemies on the high altars of Mexico. Not a very gentle age.
You have a point, though, about anti-Luther propaganda. Very often it is disguised as history. Of course, NPOV, the reverse was often true! --CTSWyneken 20:45, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Marriage

His marriage, on June 13, 1525, to Katharina von Bora, a former nun, began the tradition of clerical marriage within several Christian traditions. More accurately "revived a long-abandoned tradition" Would anyone object to that? It's not a minor point after all Wetman 04:00, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Neither seems right, I think because Luther's marriage was arguably both an abandonment of one tradition and either a return to or independent institution of another. How about His marriage, on June 13, 1525, to Katharina von Bora, a former nun, was a departure from then-current practice, requiring priestly celibacy, and established the practice of priestly marriage in several Christian traditions. Though the Christian traditions hadn't yet been formed at the time of his marriage, that's a bit backwards. - Nunh-huh 04:14, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I see the point here and perhaps we need to rework the statement. I'd argue, though, that we want to keep the first paragraph very short and summarizing. We will want to do a whole section on Luther's marriage and family life, and Nunh-huh's words would be great there. Can we rework the phrase without making it a few paragraphs? --CTSWyneken 21:01, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
"His marriage on June 13, 1525 to Katharina von Bora began the tradition of clerical marriage within several Christian traditions" is patently false. Priestly marriage had been the norm throughout until the 4th Lateran council, and has always been practiced by Eastern rite Catholic/ Eastern Orthodox priests. Furthermore, clerical marriage has always been practiced, even in Western Catholicism, by permanent deacons. Began should be replaced with revived, but then what about clerical? As Luther stopped regarding the priesthood as being sacramental, calling it "priestly" marriage seems inaccurate. Would referring to his marriage as breaking his vows be acceptable? --Jroberts548

Translation

The phrase ... added several principles to the art of translation sets up the reader but doesn't enlarge on this statement. I'd be interested. Wetman 18:01, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I plan to do so, but haven't gotten that far. (real life has a way of getting in the way of Wiki... 8-) ) Last summer, I got as far as the 95 theses. Working on our Luther exhibit (with actual first printings of many of Luther's works in it) has brought me back into the picture again. --CTSWyneken 21:04, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Online Essay on the Life of Luther

If anyone is interested, the Schaaf-Herzog article on Luther is online at: [1] It is public domain, so if someone wants to cut-and-paste, we can really expand our article rapidly and accurately. It's considered a rare, more or less POV, article written in the 19th Century. --CTSWyneken 21:09, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Great page!

I have been studying Martin Luther most of my life, and I want to compliment you all on a fine page. The fact that I see little need for me to make changes or additions is striking in and of itself, and the joy I have been taking in re-reading it is a special compliment from me to each of you. Keep up the good work! Sam Spade 07:31, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Another item to literature section?

The book "Young Man Luther" by Erik H. Erikson (W. W. Norton & co., 1962) may be worthy to be referred among books on Luther. Its author was professor of psychoanalysis and human development and he wrote an analysis of Luther's struggles from the psychoanalytical (post-Freudian) point of view. However, he is by any means bashing Luther as crazy and the book gives a huge insight into Luther's struggle before and after his conversion. User:Matej

I recently added a bunch of rather controversial edits. I thought many of these were interesting points to make, but I understand that some of them might be disputed or considered POV. If anyone sees a problem, reply to this post (or edit a dissenting opinion into the article, perhaps). Brutannica 06:55, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Luther and the cloaca

Many scholars dispute the fact that Luther made his theological discoveries in the privy. For copyright reasons, I cannot quote the sources in Wikipedia, but if anyone is interested, they could look at the most thorough biography of Luther, the one by Martin Brecht: Martin Luther Vol. 1, p. 122, 227. For this reason, I'm deleting the comment. CTSWyneken 16 November 2004


Expanding from Schaaf-Herzog

I've begun adding text from the 19th century Schaaf-Herzog Encyclopedia. It solid, but a bit old. Feel free to edit it. I just want to get more of the story told quickly. --CTSWyneken 20:30, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Leipzig Debates

If anyone can find the text of either the Obelisci, the Asterisci, or the proceedings of Luther's and Karlstadt's debates with Eck, it would be a fine contribution to the article.

--jrcagle 23:47, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

when was the last time these articles were updated?

Martin Luther as a Heretic

Is there any dispute that Martin Luther was labelled a heretic at some point in time? If not, then his inclusion in the category "Heretic" only serves to report this. It does not define him as a heretic. - Tεxτurε 19:56, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well if the criterion for being in the "heretic" category is "person x was once labelled a heretic by some group of people at some point in the past", then every pope in the past five centuries (at least) could be placed under the "heretic" category too, as it is also indisputable that Protestants in the past who have called the pope a heretic.
If the criterion for being in the heretic category is "The Roman Catholic Church once labelled person x a heretic", then that is obviously "pov pushing". It would be sort of like somebody creating a category called "False Religions" and adding every religion on Earth to that category except Islam, and to back up what they did they would point to an Islamic "scholar" who said that Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Judaism etc. are all false religions and Islam is not. BSveen 22:02, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)

Jurist?

I thought Martin Luther was a jurist to start with. Then he used his text-analyzing skills to analyze the bible, finding lots of strange things in his contemporary church, and first much later becoming a priest/monk.

I find this incoherent with the article (not that I've read it or anything ;). Am I wrong?


Luther was a law student before he entered the monastery, but never practiced law at any level. His Biblical method arose out of his formal Biblical studies, his reading of the writings from the early church, especially St. Augustine, and his commitment to several principles of humanism, especially Ad fontes to the source.--CTSWyneken 11:42, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

luther on women

why is there absolutely nothing in this article that reflects Luther's views of women? where are the quotes like "If [women] become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth - that is why they are there."

Try wikiquote [2]. This page is an encyclopedia article, not a place for quotes. A section on his views may be applicable, if written neutrally. Sam Spade 13:00, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
Yes... it's very easy to pull quotes out of the massive volume of writing Luther did in his lifetime. Any discussion of his view on women would need to include the tremendous esteem and affection he held for his own "Lord Katie," the personal risks he took in assisting her and other nuns in breaking their monastic vows, etc, as well as the quotes described. Luther the human being is seldom reducible to a small collection of hand-picked soundbites. -- Bob Schaefer 16:55, 14 May 2005 (UTC)


A lot can be said about Luther and his view of women, which was quite remarkable for his time. What must be remembered about Luther's "writings" is that just about every word he said in the presence of others was written down from 1520 to his death in 1546. Even the scribbles he wrote on a piece of paper found in his belongings when he died was published. Haven't you said something stupid when having a bad day? Luther repeatedly said how much he wished all of this had been burned. Even though we would miss a lot of Luther's work had it been destroyed. Luther himself would not. He only valued a handful of his works.
That being said, he said much about women -- especially in his formal writings -- which exalts the simple acts of love of an ordinary mother above all the priests, monks and clerics in the world. They obeyed direct commands from God, which the professionals made up great works for themselves to do. God would reward those women who obeyed him more than those who obeyed themselves, he often said.
When it comes to quotes, please cite your sources. I spend a lot of time reading and answering questions about Luther, but have never heard this particular one... --CTSWyneken 11:53, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Luther and witchcraft

Is there a specific statement Luther made encouraging the suppression of witchcraft that we could add? If not, the section seems a bit vauge. Luther surely did oppose witchcraft, but I'm not so he did so in an hisorically significant way. If the section can't be made more specific perhaps just remove it?

After reviewing all the citations for "witchcraft" and "witch" in the American Edition of Luther's Works (55 volumes), I find very little remarkable about Luther's views on the matter - certainly nothing that merits the strongly worded section on "Luther and the persecution of witches". Typical of Luther's thoughts on witchcraft is the following (LW v.24, p.74):
"It is true that the devil can torment people and lay them low; or he can blind them temporarily or lame a member, as he often did through his witches and devilish whores, and then heal them again. Not that these people were really blind or lame, for to such he could not restore sight or a member; but he bewitches the people and dupes their five senses, so that they do not know better and are willing to swear an oath that it is real."
Luther understood witches to be cheats or deceivers, in keeping with the biblical depiction of Satan as a misleader. Their power, such as it may be, is primarily the power of deception, and it is at any rate completely subject to divine will. Witches, like the devil, only operate to the degree that God allows, and no more.
In this position, Luther strikes me as, if anything, more moderate than many of his contemporaries in his approach to witches and their activities. Yes, he atttributed many misfortunes to witchcraft, including his own frequent illnesses. Yes, Luther (like any other Christian who takes scripture as the Word of God) wrestled with the meaning of passages like the cited Exodus 22:18. However, linking Luther in this manner to the Salem witch hunts seems quite a stretch to me. In reality, Luther's Works does not contain a single reference to this scipture that appears to advocate killing witches, and the Lutheran Confessions do not cite Ex. 22:18 at all. Of all the things that fired Luther's passion, witchcraft does not seem to rank high among them.
This section in the Wikipedia article strikes me at best as an effort to thrust modern sensibilities onto a midieval man. With no evidence from the historical record, it ties Luther to a movement that he may well have denounced as hysteria inspired (ironically enough) by the trickery of the devil and of actual witches.
I am in favor of deleting the section unless/until it is better researched and written from a NPOV.
--Bob Schaefer 00:51, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. Sam Spade 09:02, 23 May 2005 (UTC)


Indeed! Leave it out... --CTSWyneken 11:54, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Date of complete Bible translation

An inline comment in the article questions the date of Luther's first publication of his complete Bible translation into German. This is indeed listed as 1534 according to The Bible Through the Ages, Reader's Digest Assoc., 1996, ISBN 0895778726, an outstanding text regrettably now out of print. --Blainster 23:06, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Luther and the Counter-Reformation

The latest editing change for the first section of this article is an improvement: "His call to the Church to return to the teachings of the Bible spawned new traditions within Christianity and his teachings affected the Counter-Reformation in the Roman Catholic Church." However, I would submit, "His call to the Church to return to the teachings of the Bible spawned new traditions within Christianity, which, in turn, promted the Counter Reformation as the Roman Catholic reaction" would be a more accurate statement here. drboisclair 19:34, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Good. Done. Bbpen 20:08, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Pro-Luther. POV

I think this article is very Pro-Luther in some parts.

There is an advantage in it being pro-Luther because readers are invited to look at the subject "from the inside." I do agree that objectivity is to be a goal; however, there has been so much negative press on Luther in recent years. drboisclair 20:10, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Removal of "Roman" from before "Catholic" in this article

An editor removed "Roman" from before "Catholic" in Luther's Legacy section of this article. This would imply that Protestants in general and Lutherans in particular were not catholic. Protestants are not eo ipso (simply by being "Protestant") non-catholic. I made what I felt were necessary emendations. drboisclair 16:14, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

If the term "Catholic Church" is used instead of "Roman Catholic Church" it is still both ambiguous and anachronistic in that those Christian churches, which remain and have remained under obedience to the pope, have been historically known or referred to as the "Roman Catholic Church" or the "Catholic Church." The Eastern Orthodox Church as well as the Evangelical Lutheran Church and some other Protestant denominations consider themselves no less "catholic" than the "Roman Catholic Church." drboisclair 18:19, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Recent Massive Changes

Friends:

I dropped by and noticed massive changes in the text of this article. I'm not sure why, since, ironically, it was in areas we had edited together quite a bit and not in the ones that needed a lot of work (and still do) May I request a moritorium on these changes until we can absorb what's here now and see if they are truly improvements?

--CTSWyneken 02:08, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Changes that I made to this article were corrections of grammar and factual information. For example, "The Castle Church" is not the "town church" of Wittenberg. There were two churches in Wittenberg: All Saints and St. Mary's: the Castle Church and the City Church. There were links that implied that Martin Luther was a "Reformed Theologian," which is an error. Another problem was the one I listed above that by an editor removing "Roman" from before "Catholic Church." drboisclair 14:23, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Commentary on Recent Changes

In the first paragraph, we used to use the word "tradition" to describe "Lutheran and Protestant." This is the term used currently in scholarly circles for sets of denominations, organizations, etc. that share basic theological and cultural features that distinguish them from other traditions within the same religion. "Lutheran," "Anglican," "Reformed," "Pentecostal" are such traditions within Christianity. Denomination is used in scholarly circles for a specific organization, with rosters, rules, buildings and budgets. So, Christianity = Religion, Lutheran = Tradition, Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod = denomination, and, while we're at it, St. Peter Lutheran Church of Fort Wayne, Indiana = a congregation. If no one objects, I'll revert the term.

--CTSWyneken 10:16, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

It might be clearer to add "ecclesial" before "tradition(s)" for more accuracy; however, the first paragraph has been well improved. drboisclair 18:31, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

The next change I will make, unless someone objects, is to add "and culture" after doctrines in the first paragraph. --CTSWyneken 09:49, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Luther's Doctor in Biblia degree

A correction that removed Doctor in Biblia from the Martin Luther article here alleged that it was an historical error. On the contrary, according to at least two professors from a prestigious Lutheran seminary, the specific title of Luther's doctorate was Doctor in Biblia. Luther's own testimony confirms this: "I was forced and driven into this position in the first place, when I had to become Doctor of Holy Scripture against my will" [Luther's Works, vol. 13, St. Louis: CPH, p. 66; emphasis added]. Footnote 41 on this page reads: "As a doctor of the Sacred Scriptures he had the responsibility to teach and defend Biblical doctrine; and he maintained that this was just what he was doing" (Emphasis added). We read this in the "Introduction to Volume 10" of Luther's Works (10:1-2; emphasis added): "Johann von Staupitz had persuaded Luther to pursue advanced studies to qualify for the degree of Doctor in Biblia and had moved Frederick the Wise to provide funds for promoting Luther’s doctorate on the promise that Luther would be a great asset to the University of Wittenberg as lecturer on the Bible." His position at the University of Wittenberg was: Lectura in Biblia (cf. Heiko A. Oberman, Luther: Man between God and the Devil, New Haven: Yale, p. 143). QED drboisclair 00:30, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying your position here. I think we need to clarify a few things on this particular point.
First, the work of Brecht very clearly suggests that the title of the degree was Doctor of Theology. I've never seen any argument to the contrary prior to this. So I naturally will have to do a little spade work to see whether primary sources support the contention that the title of the degee itself is Doctor of the Bible or Doctor of Theology.
Second, I cannot verify, naturally, the statement you make about "a prestigious Lutheran seminary," since I do not know who these professors are and so have no way of evaluating their opinion. Such a statement is not helpful at determining the facts of the matter.
Third, the statement you quote from Luther does not necessarily refer to the title of his degree. I have understand him previously to be referring to his chair at the University of Wittenberg. Here he does not identify his call as the of "Teacher of the Bible," but "Teacher of the Holy Scripture." The footnote adds no new evidence to what the title of the doctorate was, since it explains the very same phrase.
Fourth, the only reference that your cite that gets at our question is the Oberman passage. I'll check that when I get to work tomorrow at the seminary library. Even at that, some of Oberman might actually support what I'm suggesting.
Why is this important? Luther understood himself as called to teach the whole church. He did not restrict himself to Biblical interpretation. He may have been accused -- then or now -- of overreaching his authority. In the controversy that followed the 95 Theses, his discussions ranged across all of Christian doctrine. He saw himself as called by God through the church to do this. So we must be sure of what the title was.
What I suggest is we drop the the "Doctor in Biblia" statement until we can verify from primary sources that this was the title of the degree. We can add at this point or near it that Luther was called to the position of "Lecturer on the Bible." (I prefer to use a few latin forms as possible).

The Doctor in Biblia degree is a doctorate in theology. Since the entire university system is a child of the Christian Church, it is often pointed out in academia that the doctorate in theology is the grandfather of all doctorates. It is not an "either, or" situation but a "both, and." I believe that leaving the data in this article gives the readers the benefit of further information on Martin Luther, whom I as a theological scholar admire and continue to study with great interest. drboisclair 06:41, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not arguing whether or not a Doctorate in the Bible is a theological degree (It most certainly would be), but what, historically, the actual title of the degree was. In other words, if Luther's diploma is extant, does it say "Doctor of Theology" or "Doctor in the Bible." So far, I've only seen the former employed, including now in the Oberman volume. on page 143, Oberman says: "Luther received his doctoral degree in theology and was accepted into the university senate three days later. Now the time had come to take over the task for which Staupitz had so long groomed him: the Lectura in Biblia, the chair of Biblical Theology, which Luther was to hold until his death." This seems to confirm what I've understood to be the case: awarded the degree Doctor of Theology, Luther was called to the position of Teacher of the Bible, i.e. Doctor in Biblia. Oberman does not provide a source at this point, but, if you wish, I'll see if I can't find something in primary source to establish my contention.

--CTSWyneken 20:50, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

More on Luther's degree

Thank you for looking in to this. Perhaps it is a technicality that means something to people attending seminaries and graduate schools. If you judge it to be best for the article, it might be best to go back to the general "Doctor of Theology": the German sources online have it as Th.D., but theological doctorate or doctor of theology is what the degree is called in Brecht, Schwiebert, and even Oberman. I agree about the Latin and German. As you can see in the Martin Chemnitz article, I have translated all the non-English words. --drboisclair 00:29, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

My credentials

Rev. Smith, as you see from the title page of this online source, these articles may be "edited by anyone." The "prestigious" Lutheran institution is Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, and the professors in question are the Rev. Dr. H. Richard Klann, Ph.D. and the Rev. Dr. Norman E. Nagel, Ph.D., whom I have had the pleasure of studying under. Perhaps, you'd like to check their credentials. Of all the professors that I have studied under I do not know any that knows Luther better in the LCMS. Excepting, of course, the sainted Rev. Dr. Heino Kadai, who used to teach at your institution, Concordia Theological Seminary, Ft. Wayne. As I said, I have taken numerous graduate courses on Luther. I know that you have an M.S. in L.S. and an M.Div. from the St. Louis Seminary, and you are blessed to be the librarian of a prestigious Lutheran institution and on the faculty--the librarian is on the faculty I take it. I respect your credentials, and I am disappointed that you see fit to delete data, which are historically accurate. You need to point out in this article that Luther was a biblical exegete. By just saying that he was a "doctor of theology" does not give the reader all the information. Why didn't you edit some of the inaccuracies in the paragraph on the 1520 treatises, e.g.? All of us have a right to edit this article. In my case I will not put anything into it that cannot be supported. Have you checked out the LW 10:1-2? Isn't it better if we add information that is original from our own study as experts in our field? Philip Schaff was a celebrated church historian; perhaps his citations from the History of the Christian Church should be referenced, so that we can be more respectful of his words. In short I would request the same respect for my input as a fellow Lutheran scholar. Cordially and fraternally, Rev. David R. Boisclair, M.Div., S.T.M., St. Louis, Missouri. drboisclair 04:17, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Dear Pastor Boisclair:

Thank you for providing this data. I knew Klann quite well. He was a professor of mine. I know Dr. Nagel even better, having studied under him at two institutions. I was at at Dr. Kadai's funeral as well. Knowing that gives weight to the argument you're making. My point for asking is, on the internet, anyone can say anything. If a person is not identified, it is impossible to tell whether or not their opinions carry any weight at all. Prior to your comments today, I had no way of knowing if you were an eminent Luther scholar, or someone with a high school degree who was playing with the text (if you've seen some of the vandalism we've corrected recently, you'll see what I mean) Because I have a lot of work in this and a half-dozen articles, I watch what I've gotten to very closely. Any time a change is made in those sections, I notice it in the history and see what has been done. If I can live with it, I leave it alone.

I deleted this datum from the article because the work I consulted did not have that title at all. Please note I have not re-deleted the data, since I now have some reason to believe it to be accurate. I will follow up to see if I can verify it. If I can, I'll be content to leave it, but will likely suggest translating it to an English form. One of the continuing problems with this and other articles is using vocubulary unfamiliar to casual readers. Avoiding unneeded latin is one thing I believe we should do. My point is to be sure we are as accurate in the details we choose as we can be.

I'm not saying you have no right to edit the article. In fact, I'd welcome the help. The reason why I went for this detail is it is in a section that I and others have worked over for years. I simply have not had the time to do this with the whole article. When we started, this was very bad indeed. In fact, it should be very clear in reading the article before you began editing, where we had left off, where Schaaf was quoted verbatum and where no work had been done at all.

What I'm asking for is for you not to wade in and make dozens of changes at once, without at least warning us here of your intent a day or so in advance, so that I do not have to check each one of them, which is very time consuming in a tight schedule here. --CTSWyneken 11:16, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate your work, and I would like to help. I will follow this courtesy protocol: it is only fair. I am sorry if I have deleted material from the Schaaf-Herzog Encyclopedia. I am glad that we are able to use that material. I would imagine that we cannot use resources that are copyrighted like The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church. Please call on my help if you think it appropriate. I would appreciate it if you took a look at and put the Martin Chemnitz on your "watch list." drboisclair 16:13, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

At this time, with all the editing that has recently been done, it will be quite a chore to add citations to Schaaf back in. My point in bringing it up was to show that we have not just made up a lot of this material. We've often copied it verbatum from sources in the public domain.--CTSWyneken 11:16, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps some of the Schaaf-Herzog material could be retro replaced by using the "history page". I could try to restore it if you desire. Perhaps it would be better if one had the entry in Schaaf-Herzog to consult and simply enter the information at the appropriate places. Will not take this on unless it is agreed. drboisclair 16:13, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm content to leave things as they are at the moment and work together on this article. Schaaf is online and linked at the bottom of the article, so we can go out there to harvest material. It is perfectly fine to adjust it. Now that I'm sure who you are and know that you'll discuss here any major revisions, I'll assume the changes made without checking to be limited to minor ones. I'd suggest the best way to proceed would be to have Stan archive the current talk page (I never got the hang of how to do this) and have us begin by each reading the article as it is now. Let's then see where improvement can be made and see if a general plan can emerge. (like where to shuffle explanitory text off to little side pages) If I remember correctly, not much has been done by trustworthy authors on the later parts of Luther's life. I'd be very happy to have Pastor Boisclair author new text for these and have us discuss and adjust the text. We would also want to invite others out there lurking to join our happy throng.

--CTSWyneken 21:03, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Do not make massive changes without disscussion please

In the spirit of the wikipedia, I do not mind editing of the articles here. After all, that's the point of this experiment. I do find it offensive, however, to find the work that I and others have done on this article over years, some with a lot of debate, completely revised without so much as a warning, much less a discussion. Most of the changes you've made do not change the substance of what we've done. So why change them? Just because you do not like the way they sound? Then ask. Most of us do not mind some adjustment. I take this particular article quite personally because I am tired of Luther being abused unfairly. When there are changes, I check each one to be sure that the changes have merit. When you change enough to generate a whole history page of just your edits, you cost me much time and effort.

So, please! Before you change text in volume, some of it the words of historians like Philipp Schaaf of the 19th Century, please discuss it with us. You may be suprised (I, for one, would like to see much of the latter parts of the article fully redone.

Rev. Robert E. Smith Concordia Theological Seminary Fort Wayne, Indiana --CTSWyneken 21:57, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I do not like Luther being abused either, and I resent all of the vandalism that is being done to this article. Perhaps this article like the one on our Lord should be protected from vandalism in some way. Perhaps if some editors may be considered to "own" an article, there should be some kind of notation made at the beginning of the article for the "outsider" to consult. As someone who admires and studies Luther I do not feel that I am an outsider, and I admit to being disappointed at my contributions being summarily removed. drboisclair 04:55, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
There has been serious discussion in the wikipedia governing board about just that. A number of "settled" articles find themselves under constant attack. The current mechanism, which relies on folks like me to stand watch on articles we care about, can be very burdensome. Incidently, you can often click on a user's name in the page history and see something about the user. This takes you to the user page, where you, Stan and I have left some idea of who we are. By using this info and by skimming through the page history, it is often clear who cares about a given article. When it comes to the subject matter of this article, not only are you not an outsider, but something of an expert. The issue was we did not know that. I apologize for the wholesale deletes of your material. I normally would not have done this without expressing my concerns here, but, when you did not respond here to an earlier plea, I looked for a way to get your attention. Not my greatest moment.

--CTSWyneken 12:11, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I apologize for cavalierly revising material painstakingly devised. CTS library affords an excellent resource for formulating these articles. I like editing and revising, and at times I have acquired information that I naturally volunteer without consulting. I agree that this project is one that should be done carefully. I like the tremendous resources that "The Wittenberg Project" offers to the online community. "The Wittenberg Project" is a valuable resource that I hope will be expanded! Cordially, drboisclair 15:56, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

The Theory of Grace paragraph

When I edited the Theory of Grace paragraph I was restoring what I thought was removed by a vandal, who had left the final five or six words. I felt that this paragraph should be restored. I am glad it was. drboisclair 06:29, 19 September 2005 (UTC)


Pastor Boisclair -- do you have a suggestion as to the title of this section? I'm not comfortable with it. The trick is to find one that is accurate, reveals Luther's viewpoint, while keeping the article itself from departing from a neutral point of view. So, we say in the opening paragraph "Luther's call to the Church to return to the teachings of the Bible" is fine because we indicate that it is his view. What we wouldn't do here, which we would do at a Lutheran site, is poin blank state he was right.

--CTSWyneken 11:55, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Theory of Grace as the title shows more objectivity than one like "Reformatory Discovery" or "Tower Experience." I take it that this paragraph is about Luther's breakthrough. One question I have is: was the paragraph removed by a vandal or was it removed in the attempt to streamline the article to make it less long? I believe that such a paragraph with its present content is important to be retained.
It could be Luther discovers the gospel; but that might be construed as not objective. Theory of Grace is objective and it shows that Luther did not have it point blank at the start. He seemed to work with a theory that he developed over time. There are two schools of thought here: "Early daters" and "Late daters": The early daters feel that Luther got it right early--in his first lectures on the Psalms 1513-1515 with the idea that he had it right in time for the 95 Theses. The "late daters" believe that he got it right with his 1518 lectures or commentary on Hebrews. Scholars like Lowell Green believe that when Luther came to this discovery is important for Lutherans. Lutherans, though, are bound to the Book of Concord, so it does not matter when he got it right. Theory of Grace helps in pointing out that it was a gradual understanding. These are a few observations.

--drboisclair 16:27, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm operating from Dr. Nagel's understanding that no "tower experience" in the sense that folk in the romantic era saw it ever happened. He believed that Luther came to study one concept at a time and had flashes of insight that gave him joy and excitement. The first was over the word "penance," the most famous over the word "righteousness." Other words are spoken of in a similar fashion. What seems clear to me, however, is that Luther's theology was not as we have come to know it until the three 1520 treastises. The title of the section, for me, sounds a bit like "Luther believed this, but it wasn't true." I know that's not what the words actually say and finding a neutral title other than it is a tricky proposition. So, unless we have a "shower experience" and discover something better, I am content to leave well enough alone.

--CTSWyneken 21:42, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

This is the wisest course. drboisclair 00:17, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

"Crotur"

I have moved to here the emphasized passage

The disputation at Leipzig (1519) brought Luther into contact with the humanists, particularly Melanchthon, Reuchlin, Erasmus, and Crotur. Crotur was closely associated with the knight Ulrich von Hutten, who, in turn, influenced the knight Franz von Sickingen.

because after my addition of linkage to it was reverted without explanation, I went searching for more information on this mysterious "Crotur" so that he could be properly identified and linked. The only references I easily found to him were clones of this very article on other web sites, so I have moved him here until we determine if he is the product of a hoax promulgated via Wikipedia, or was an actual person with a forename and dates. If we don't know enough about him (if he actually existed) to make at least a stub article on him, then we shouldn't mention him at all, and that may suggest a different path of affinity to Ulrich von Hutten. Perhaps scholar CTSWyneken might check this out at the seminary library. --StanZegel 23:43, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I have had the same misgivings about this phantom humanist. There have been vandal additions; hence, "Crotur" may be such a phantom. There was an internal link that was to a page that had not been created as yet. I have never heard of such a 16th Century humanist. BTW, I did not originate the entry of "Crotur" into this article. I was just editing the sentence for more understandibilty. There are perhaps some humanists from the 16th Century that I do not know about.drboisclair 04:35, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Good eye, Stan! I'll add this to the list of things to check on.
I had a student worker here, Mark Steiner, do some research on this fellow. We find a similar one, a Crotus Rubianus (see Lutheran Cyclopedia p. 212) AKA Rubeanus, Johannes Jaeger, Venatorius, ca. 148-ca. 1545) a german humanist, b. Dornheim, Thuringia and a friend of von Hutten and Reuchlin. Sounds like our guy.
He sounds so obscure that I think we do no violence to history by omitting him. --StanZegel 22:37, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

The need to arrange the initial picture and coat of arms

If you notice in this article, there is an enormous space that shows up at the beginning of this article because the beginning picture and the coat of arms are placed as they are. Perhaps the coat of arms might be put on the left and the picture box on the right or vice versa to make the beginning of this article look better. drboisclair 05:01, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the table of contents box always consumes its vertical space with no article text beside it. The placement of those two graphics fills space alongside the TOC that would otherwise be blank. If they were placed elsewhere, they would take additional space in their new location instead of making use of waste space here. BUT... any illustration should be located where is is most useful in context. I don't recall if the article has a section describing Luther's seal, but if it ever does have such a section, then it would certainly be better to move the seal graphic down to illustrate that section. --StanZegel 05:42, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
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