Talk:Mediterranean tropical-like cyclone/Archive 1

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Archive 1

removed text from article

With global warming, such an extreme phenomenon could become more frequent.

The above text was in the lede section of the article - I removed it as 'bad science' not because of the words 'global warming' but because of the 'could become more frequent' and 'such an extreme' - this could be rewritten to say It has been suggested [who?] that these (medicanes) will become more frequent as a result of global warming[citation needed]. and then at least it would be a sentence that could have decent citation. But until someone wants to put this back in the article - and provide citations to show that it has been suggested that they (are medicanes discussed that often in reliable souces?) will become more frequent due to global warming I don't think it should be in there. But I have seen several blogs and so forth mentioning the link to global warming with the recent sardinia medicane, and that's why I put this on the talk page so it doesn't end up as a potential edit war. EdwardLane (talk) 05:34, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

  • I agree, we don't need this. It isn't essential anyway. Stormmeteo (talk) 20:57, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Keep or merge voting

There is currently a discussion as to whether or not to keep the article. ₪Stormmeteo Message 19:45, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Mediterranean tropical cyclone/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Hurricanehink (talk · contribs) 00:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I'll review it, why not? :) ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

  • In the second sentence, it implies there were officially 99 tropical cyclones over a ~50 year period, which is 2 per year. That's not all that rare sounding. You should clarify that the stat means tropical-like storms, or something.
  • "Numerous studies have been conducted on the impact of global warming on Mediterranean tropical cyclone formation, with generally concluding that although fewer storms would form, those that did would be of a greater intensity." - grammar. Remove the "with", and the last portion could be shorter - "generally concluding that fewer yet more intense storms would form."
  • In the third lede paragraph, use "that" instead of "which"
  • Did the University of Berlin really name 01M as "Tropical Storm Rolf"?
  • I don't think you need to link the next section when you write " certain meteorological circumstances arise"
  • "with no definitive trend in activity within that period" - the two "with/within"s are weird. Make the second one "in"
  • "approximately 0.75 such systems form each year, compared to 0.32 in the Ionian Sea region" - so this adds up to 1.08, but earlier you said there is an average of 1.57 per year. Am I to assume the remaining .49 is from another part of the Medit (that you said wasn't as favorable?)
  • Yes, i.e. Adriatic and Aegean Seas. (The 2006 storm passed through the Adriatic Sea, for instance.) Cloudchased (talk) 13:20, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
  • "This in turn leads" - add comma
  • "70 to 200 km (43 to 124 mi)" - round the miles
  • Why? Also, it's a convert template, I'll have to look that up. Cloudchased (talk) 13:20, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
  • If the first unit is rounded, the second should be as well. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
  • "and feature wind speeds approaching 144 km/h (89 mph)" - so the storms generally produce winds of 89 mph? That's not a record, that's a general tendency? Seems pretty high, given that's a strong category 1 hurricane.
  • I thought "approaching" would suffice for the meaning of "up to," but maybe that's not clear. Changed. Cloudchased (talk) 13:20, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
  • "cold-cored" - drop the d?
  • You should explain or link what a "lee depression" is
  • Explained. Note that it's under the influence of local orography. Cloudchased (talk) 13:20, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
  • "Under the influence of mountainous terrain, the low-pressure area initially meandered northeastward, but following the entry of cool sea air, it recurved to the southeast before transitioning into a Saharan depression associated with a distinct cold front by 22 September." - split into two sentences
  • " the ship reports containing information on wind speed could have been within the opposite side of the eyewall, which usually features the highest winds in a tropical cyclone." - I'm missing this. Did the ship actually report the strongest winds? And what were they?
  • I moved the tidbit and clarified... hopefully? Cloudchased (talk) 13:20, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
  • "Two low-pressure areas were present along the path of the trough, with one situated above Ukraine and the other above the central Mediterranean, likely associated with a low-level cyclone over western Greece, which began to weaken on 14 January, and a second low, the system which would evolve into the Mediterranean tropical cyclone, developed in situ on 15 January." - one, too long, and two, don't be too verbose with the "in situ" :P No need for italics, no need to be overly fancy
  • You link "cumulonimbi" a section after you first mention. Fix that, and fix your many duplicate Wikilinks
  • Working on it.... and done. Cloudchased (talk) 13:20, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
  • "was a typical Mediterranean tropical cyclone which developed " - again, which --> that
  • "an area conducive to cyclone development" - not needed since climatology was covered previously
  • "a disturbance developed off the coast of Valencia, Spain, dropping heavy rainfall on the coast" don't say coast twice
  • "An eye developed shortly thereafter as the system rapidly traversed across Majorca and Sardinia in its eastward trek before making landfall upon the coast of southern Italy on the evening of 13 September with a minimum atmospheric pressure of 990 mbar (29.24 inHg), dissipating shortly after coming ashore." - ugh, once again, too long
  • "While approaching the coast" - which one? Eastern Spain? Balearic Islands? Italy?
  • " Warm low-level advection caused by a large-scale low over the western Mediterranean,[3] in conjunction with the presence of a mid- to upper-level cut-off cold-core low were the two main factors in the rise of strong convection. " - the whole article is a bit too on the technical side, but this sentence in particular could use some dumbing down
  • Ugh, yeah. Fixed as best I could. Cloudchased (talk) 13:20, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
  • I recommend splitting it up. The sentence is still rather long. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
  • "with a definitive eye-like feature prominent on satellite" - definitive and prominent seem synonymous here
  • There definitely needs to be more info on Rolf
  • Working on it. Er, done now. Cloudchased (talk) 13:20, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
  • You don't ever mention once that Medicanes aren't officially classified tropical cyclones. Here, it is emphasized that they are different and not one of the regular basins.

Overall, the article is very technical. If you intend to take this to FAC, you should tone it down some, as it was somewhat complicated for myself. I can't imagine what a non-weather geek would say. Anyway, the article is on hold, bladeyblah. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:44, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Working on fixing the jargooooon.... yep, done. Cloudchased (talk) 13:20, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Alright, just two minor things left :) ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Im not happy about this article. "Too start off with Mediterranean tropical cyclones are not considered to be formally classified tropical cyclones by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) and are not officially monitored." - Why NOAA? Why not WMO, Greece or France or some other agency that is more relevant to the region in question. It also implies that any system, that they do not monitor are not tropical cyclones. Rolfs Section implies that NOAA officially monitored it and considered it to be a tropical cyclone which they didn't. Also in response to Hurricanehinks inevitable reaction the article doesn't clarify that the systems aren't proper tropical cyclones to a lay reader.Jason Rees (talk) 19:06, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
How would you define "proper," anyway? Also, I'll look into your concerns. Cloudchased (talk) 20:02, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Ditto, looking into these as well. Cloudchased (talk) 20:02, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
@Hurricanehink:, @Jason Rees: – how about now? Cloudchased (talk) 20:25, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Proposed rename article to Medicane

I think perhaps this article would be more correctly named under the Medicane title, as many of these storms are only arguably tropical in nature, and the current title seemingly uses the voice of Wikipedia to say the scientific discussion is perhaps settled.Lacunae (talk) 15:18, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

If those storms are not tropical, then they should not be included. Dustin (talk) 15:45, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
The article itself states "Mediterranean tropical cyclones are not considered to be formally classified tropical cyclones"Lacunae (talk) 18:17, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
A good number of these systems are tropical or subtropical; however, the status for the storms pre-2010 are pretty much all unoffical, given that no TC agency was really tracking those storms. However, "Medicane" is a moniker, and we generally don't name articles after such titles. LightandDark2000 (talk) 05:14, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
I mean, there's always the WP:COMMONNAME argument. Regardless, I don't see a big push to rename the article at the current time, and this discussion is years old. Master of Time (talk) 05:19, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Medicane right now.

There is one right now. I am going to add info. http://www.meteogiornale.it/notizia/34935-1-vortice-mediterraneo-degenera-in-ciclone-simil-tropicale --Adriano G. V. Esposito (talk) 18:37, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Here is a MODIS image for you.--Keith Edkins ( Talk ) 19:03, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Thank you very much!--Adriano G. V. Esposito (talk) 19:08, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

A second medicane?!

Well, this season is very strange. We have chances the low Xandra now on the Balearic Islands become a medicane. I am monitoring. In the case I'll add this new medicane. Hopely NO!--Adriano G. V. Esposito (talk) 18:07, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

The system did not evolve in medicane, this time: http://www.meteoweb.eu/2014/12/ciclone-xandra-perche-rientra-in-sistema-tipo-warm-seclusion-non-in-vero-proprio-tlc/359771/ --Adriano G. V. Esposito (talk) 08:18, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
EUMETSAT have described the system as a medicane. http://www.eumetsat.int/website/home/Images/ImageLibrary/DAT_2437007.html.Lacunae (talk) 18:24, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Do we really need to have every known occurrence documented on this page?Jason Rees (talk) 19:06, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
More than likely not on the article page, but I think the talk page is a perfectly suitable arena to discuss the merits for and against the inclusion of each system cited as a medicane or such.Lacunae (talk) 20:24, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Every notable/major system should be included. Given that this article doesn't have very many storms yet, I opt for including the system. Someone can copy the info for the storm from this article's sandbox that I've been working on (linked somewhere else on this talk page). LightandDark2000 (talk) 11:51, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Page move?

Medicane may be a nice catchy term, but is it encyclopediac enough to cover the article? Then again, is "Mediterranean tropical cyclone" too long? For those of you who didn't notice, the article used to be at MTC, but it was moved the other day. Personally, I feel that "Mediterranean tropical cyclone" is more appropriate as it tells you where the storms are without question. "Medicane" is slightly more ambiguous. WP:TITLE says it must be short, natural, and recognizable. I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts are, with regards to all three criteria there. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:57, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I think Mediterranean tropical cyclone is factually inaccurate, as they are not widely regarded as true tropical cyclones, the sea temperatures do not fit the criteria generally required, let alone to the usual depth of 50m. Most are associated with cut off lows or other forcings from outside of the basin, some schools seem to regard them as a form of polar low. "Medicane" as a term has it's origins in academic literature Businger and Reed (1989) (http://actualite.lachainemeteo.com/actualite-meteo/2014-11-02-14h00/mediterranee---un-ouragan-est-il-possible---26604.php) http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/1520-0434%281989%29004<0133%3ACICAM>2.0.CO%3B2 so it's not like it's some marketing label or sensationalist newspaper driven name. Also if you read the article (besides my recent edits replacing tropical to tropical-like) it seems to be pretty clearly saying that these are NOT tropical cyclones. Not to mention the research contained in this link http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=2379 where we have academics postulating that tropical cyclones may likely not form in the basin until the end of the century, and then in the Autumn, while we have storms we are calling tropical forming in January. I'd happily support a title of Mediterranean tropical-like cyclones.Lacunae (talk) 20:04, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
I respectfully disagree. The article talks about tropical-like cyclones. Just as South Atlantic tropical cyclones cover storms that aren't official tropical cyclones, this article covers storms in the Mediterranean. Medicane just doesn't explain it thoroughly enough that it has to do with the Mediterranean. Some people may say they are not tropical cyclones, but some do. As far as January, there have been storms in every basin worldwide in that month, for what it's worth. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:59, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
The article does indeed use the term tropical-like (now), and as mentioned in the IRC chat we had, "Mediterranean tropical-like cyclones" would be an acceptable long-form compromise title, which would allay your concerns about "Medicane" not being a clear geographical label, and my concerns about calling the systems which have already occurred tropical, without qualification.Lacunae (talk) 18:19, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

In summary: the name Medicane whilst having been used academically, does not adequately define the geographical basin in which these storms occur, and could be imprecisely confused with the prefix medi- (of medium size), to denote a separate category of tropical cyclone, which is not the case. As there is a wealth of literature which disputes the true tropical characteristics of such cyclones, Mediterranean tropical-like cyclones as a long-form name should be maintained for this page.Lacunae (talk) 20:30, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Mediterranean Tropical Cyclones

Good Morning, the tropical cyclones develop in many areas of the world. The Mediterranean Sea is a geographycal part of Subtropical Atlantic. The Mediterranean Sea have infact the same probability of formation of the Subtropical Atlantic (August to January, in particular between october and Dicember). The Mediterranean has more tropical cyclones than the South-Atlantic Ocean. The geographical confines, are only a human mind confines. The Mediterranean sea is just a part of the Subtropical-Atlantic Ocean. polar lows?..They are very different from tropical cyclones (in Ir and Visible Sat, in structure and temperature); The Mediterranean tropical-like cyclones equal to tropical cyclones. 26°C sea surface necessary? absolutely wrong: Like tropical cyclones Karl 1981, Vince 2005, Epsilon 2005, Grace 2009, Chris 2012 a non tropical low becomes in a sub-tropical and subsequently in a tropical cyclone (warm core) over sea surface between 19 and 25°C. This happens by Always, over subtropical-Atlantic and Mediterranean Sea (rarely over black Sea). In the subtropical-Atlantic these cyclones They are very monitored, even if, sometimes, they are not a danger to humans or very far from the coasts. On the Mediterranean, instead, they develop near coasts very populated, and aren't monitored (heavy floods and casualties often occured). For Very many years it was studied and confirmed; We are in 2015, can not 'be more ignored, It does not make sense. http://www.medicanes.altervista.org/. 18:01, 14 May 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.27.100.92 (talk)

Infoboxes???

Do you guys think we should include an infobox for these storms? The South Atlantic tropical cyclone(s) has infoboxes and the area/basin is minor, so with this area/basin. Typhoon2013 (talk) 05:06, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

No need. There is no official agency, which means no start/end date, pressure, winds, or track map. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:32, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
I would like to consider an infobox for the storms after 2011 that were sufficiently monitored, such as Rolf, Qendresa, and 90M. Rolf and 90M were definitely tropical, according to the NOAA and a number of other experts, so it's closer to being offical, but before any if it happens, we need consensus on this topic. LightandDark2000 (talk) 05:18, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
I've implemented the use of small hurricane infoboxes on the sandbox for this article. LightandDark2000 (talk) 08:43, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Sardinia/Corsica floods 1–2 October 2015

I've added a short reference for another "medicane", there might be more info online. If anyone knows where to look it might be a good idea to expand that, I'd imagine there should be about as much info available as for Qendresa the previous year. 2A01:260:D001:FC6F:C136:5123:1801:8F89 (talk) 09:36, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Someone removed the reference, but it is here. LightandDark2000 (talk) 11:52, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
  • "Category 1 medicane system brings landslides and violent floods to Italy and France". The Watchers. 2 October 2015. Retrieved 30 September 2016.

October 2016 cyclone "Medicane Trixi"

The German weather service DWD have used the name "Trixi" in relation to this cyclone, does anyone know the provenance of this name, which appears to have greatest currency in German and Dutch social and regular media? http://www.dwd.de/DE/wetter/thema_des_tages/2016/11/1.html Lacunae (talk) 20:35, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Possible Medicane Numa

Just something to watch this week, and maybe next week as well. The storm system currently named "Numa" is expected to strengthen, and some computer models indicate that it could develop into a tropical or subtropical storm by this weekend. LightandDark2000 (talk) 05:12, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Some thoughts on page development.

  • The lede section may perhaps be rather long for the article, and possibly over-technical, the main issue in this point is probably from the use of the term baroclinic, though wiki linked, is rather technical.
  • Consideration should be given for moving notable instances to a page of their own, to help concentrate the article on the phenomena rather than instances of.
  • There's a drip of using the unqualified term tropical, rather than tropical-like. Which isn't to say there should be a total embargo on using the word tropical, as it is essential.
  • Perhaps there is scope to discuss future predictions on climatology in their own section.Lacunae (talk) 22:04, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Article for all cyclones

I think we should make another article listing all cyclones and showing the tracks for them, as well as statistics, like many other articles do. Alex of Canada (talk) 05:39, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Medicane "Zorbas" is forming

Roytam1 (talk) 05:35, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

I have seen various reports referring to this name, but there is no proof that the Hellenic National Meteorological Service assigned it. I have also checked its Greek and English pages, yet the service does not use the name at all. Thus, we should avoid using this name unless some governmental departments use it.-- 🐱💬 17:07, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
I agree, so far there is no attribution to this name and some disagreement as to whether it should be rendered as Zorbas or Zorba in English.Lacunae (talk) 20:27, 28 September 2018 (UTC) Or indeed whether Xenophon is not also being used.Lacunae (talk) 20:29, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
It's important to remember that Wikipedia is not a news ticker. It's dangerous trying to write anything on something that is really nothing more than a weather forecast at this stage. Give it time. The facts, on name(s), and severity, etc., will become clearer before we need to have an article. HiLo48 (talk) 22:22, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
@EBGamingWiki, LightandDark2000, and Nick.mon: The name Zorbas is confirmed by FU Berlin so we could use it.-- 🐱💬 08:03, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

I also wonder if Zorbas is the first medicane that is officially recognised by a national agency. The Deutscher Wetterdienst has recognised Medicane Zorbas. However, I still cannot find who named it.-- 🐱💬 14:25, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

I also see the storm called "Zorba" (no s). It would be helpful to know who named it so we know what to call the darn thing :/ I wrote what I could find about the storm, using a lot from Jeff Masters. The storm killed four people in Tunisia in its formative stages. I could see the storm getting an article eventually, once more information comes out. In the mean time, let's build up the section. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:12, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
And it's also known as Xenophon. So we need to decide what we're going to call the storm, at least for the section. For what it's worth, "Greece Storm Xenophon" has nearly three times the Google hits than "Greece Storm Zorbas". ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:45, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
From what I gather Xenophon is a period of bad weather preceding the medicane. Previously it has been the National Observatory of Athens who've named some of these events, rather than the Hellenic met service, but so far for this event I've seen no direct attribution yet.Lacunae (talk) 16:49, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
@Hurricanehink: There is a national meteorological service (DWD) referring it as Medicane Zorbas officially, so this has already become the first time to reach the national level for a Mediterranean system, making Zorbas more official than other well-known systems. The weather map from the Free University of Berlin can be considered as an evidence, as it is de facto a DWD weather map. Unfortunately, it is not possible to archive DWD ones directly because of robots.txt.-- 🐱💬 17:52, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
Care should be taken when using FUB material (some is generated by students), the DWD's theme of the day is better to use.Lacunae (talk) 18:07, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
Is the DWD Greece's weather service? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:23, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
@Lacunae: It is actually DWD’s image, added with red (low) and blue (high) names by FUB. @Hurricanehink: JMA also does not use international typhoon names in Japan.-- 🐱💬 06:09, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
The name of all medicanes is "open" since there is no official naming procedure. The University of Berlin, now followed by DWD, naming effort has never been recognized to be an official procedure by European countries. Furthermore, up to now, there has been no institutional article about the cyclone. The English community created and communicated "Zorbas", which is a family name in a Greek novel (Alexis Zorbas), made famous later with an international movie/soundtrack/dance based on the novel, and other communities followed otherwise the name used by Greek weather information referring to the Ancient Greek philosopher, known as "Xenophon" in English but "Jenofonte" in Spanish, "Senofonte" in Italian... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.245.181.15 (talk) 20:09, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
Unfortunately, this is wrong. Xenophon was a distinct storm which hit Greece a few days earlier than Zorbas. The sources formerly cited by the article (e.g. the Washington Post one) did shorten their sources heavily, becoming misleading. I've corrected the article. Btw. "Zorba" is a declined form of "Zorbas". Lastly, the name "Zorbas" was used by the DWD, the German national meteorogical service; Greek meteorologists don't name depressions themselves, as one of them explained on TV during that time. Sorry, I didn't capture that TV show. --Nomentz (talk) 16:06, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
I do not understand on what is wrong. Two names, two communities, no official name, an open choice for writers. It is likely that English-written papers by the Mediterranean institutes, aimed to be broadcast through international reviews, will contain a name with the latin alphabet. Wait and see. This will be not official either but talking about science and history, they might have some impact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.245.181.15 (talk) 00:36, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

lede stating that all are warm-core

I'm unsure if it is factually accurate to say Medicanes are all warm core. I'll look into it further.Lacunae (talk) 11:33, 6 October 2018 (UTC) I'd also question whether you can say they are primarily driven by convection, as most seem to be forced by things from outside the basin.Lacunae (talk) 11:36, 6 October 2018 (UTC) "the space below is needed for a new chapter on similar tropical-like cyclones (Biscaya, Black Sea, Great lakes,..." this slightly concerns me, there is no need for such space in this article.Lacunae (talk) 22:25, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

I believe developing a warm core is a defining factor of what is considered a "medicane". Point being, if it doesn't have a warm core, it is not (sub)tropical in structure, therefore not relevant to this discussion. 178.172.22.134 (talk) 09:35, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Track maps of Zorbas and Adrian needed

Maybe new pages of these two cyclones are also needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 0716pyhao (talk • contribs) 06:37, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Adrian!?!?!!?

Why is Adrian included on this list? The cyclone never acquired any tropical characteristic – at all points of its existence, it was a deep extratropical occluded cold-core cyclone. 93.103.139.149 (talk) 14:36, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Article split

I took the notable list and transferred them into a separate article. Having it all under one article rendered this one cluttered. So, it was necessary. Unfortunately, in the process, I ended up making a mess of the reference list. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 13:04, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

@KyuuA4: Could you please move those back so the reference list is not destroyed? I don't want the article losing the GA Status. HurricaneGonzalo | Talk | Contribs 20:04, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

@KyuuA4: - You did make a horrible mess of the reference list on a good article, you shouldn't have done that without cleaning up your mess, that too was necessary, next time either remove the references too in the references section, or in the alternative comment them out. BTW, they were at least 75 of those cite errors.
@HurricaneGonzalo: - I've commented them out in case they should ever be needed again in this article, I guess they could be deleted too. No comment on whether the split should have happened without discussion in the first place. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:05, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
In regards to the reference list, it was somewhat unusually formatted, so it was pretty inevitable it would be broken by someone not experienced with moving such a formatted list. The ref rescue bot did seem to repair it to some extent without loss.Lacunae (talk) 21:10, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

I have redirected the splitting of the list. Given how rare these events are, I don't think it hurts having one large article. If it needs to be trimmed down some, Zorbas could get its own article. Also, I want to add, we could get a good topic out of this, if Numa and Zorbas's articles become good. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 14:36, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

I preferred the article split, allowing the page to concentrate on the phenomena with a separate list of the instances of.Lacunae (talk) 15:08, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
Given how few there are, I think the article is best served showing each of these instances, especially as it is already a good article. I don't think there are enough other storms yet, much like South Atlantic tropical cyclone, but perhaps one day in the future. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:17, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Xandra

I went ahead and added Xandra, but if it is not needed there, I can take it down at any time, or someone else can. HurricaneGonzalo | Talk | Contribs 19:29, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Where in the sources does it say Xandra was a tropical cyclone, or tropical-like? The source is an image that says "T". That is original research to include Xandra based on that source. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:46, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
@Hurricanehink: To be fair, the map was from the FUB, but it was definitely not tropical. HurricaneGonzalo | Talk | Contribs 01:19, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
If it wasn’t tropical, then it shouldn’t be in this article, plain and simple. Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 13:23, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
@Hurricanehink: sorry for the late response, but if they have to be tropical, almost half of the cyclones on the page should be removed. HurricaneGonzalo | Talk | Contribs 20:11, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
Then about half of the cyclones might have to be removed. The storms need to have a reliable source for the storms being tropical-like. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:42, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
Then that defeats the entire purpose of the article itself. HurricaneGonzalo | Talk | Contribs 16:33, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
The purpose of the article is to document Mediterranean tropical-like cyclones, aka Medicanes. If sources don't back that up, then we are doing original research, which is a cardinal sin on Wikipedia. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:30, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
There is this article, but I am not sure if it is worthy to be used in this section for Xandra. HurricaneGonzalo | Talk | Contribs 19:44, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
Also, sorry for it being in Italian. HurricaneGonzalo | Talk | Contribs 19:45, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Similar tropical-like cyclones outside the Mediterranean

I think this section would be better moved somewhere else.Lacunae (talk) 20:44, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. The only thing that I would suggest keeping though is the Black Sea section, since that is kinda tied to the Mediterranean in a way. HurricaneGonzalo | Talk | Contribs 22:12, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
Went ahead and removed it. However, should someone wanted to discuss it in the talk page per WP:BRD, we shall discuss it here. INeedSupport :3 17:02, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
Man this is a hard one to be honest after seeing this post http://www.medicanes.altervista.org/ , looks like they can form in the atlantic? example being
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Karl_(1980)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Atlantic_hurricane_season#Tropical_Storm_Edouard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Vince
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_Storm_Grace_(2009)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Alex_(2016)
and one in the black sea in 2005 so im unsure what page to put them in my self... Joshoctober16 (talk) 20:27, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Cyclone Otilie

Hi! Why did you deleted Otilie's part what I added? That was possibly the most classic tropical cyclone in the Mediterranean over the last years, although it was weak and because of this none of the official-unofficial agencies (like FU-Berlin, ESTOFEX) classified it. The reason "Unsourced and refspam" is not correct. It is true that I used my earlier study about the cyclone as source, but I am not a spam, I am a meteorologist. ;) Also another professional and amateur meteorologists are agree with me. http://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=119977 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zivipotty (talk • contribs) 00:46, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Subtropical black sea and Caspian sea storms. ( I think )

the links below show the cyclones that I think that are subtropical or even tropcial.

Caspian sea cyclone 2019 April 13: https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov/?v=36.62633341956623,31.25489271072589,70.37633341956624,49.85254896072589&t=2019-04-13-T14%3A40%3A00Z&z=1&l=Reference_Labels(hidden),Reference_Features(hidden),Coastlines(hidden),VIIRS_NOAA20_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),VIIRS_SNPP_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor,MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor,MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor

Possible Black sea hurricane 2019 June 7: https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov/?v=25.668374635118862,39.54198137853417,42.58096190328229,48.861521654428394&t=2019-06-07-T14%3A40%3A00Z&z=1&l=Reference_Labels(hidden),Reference_Features(hidden),Coastlines(hidden),VIIRS_NOAA20_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),VIIRS_SNPP_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor

Twin Black sea cyclones 2019 Aug 21: https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov/?v=15.065317782665893,32.33004010333183,50.389957782665896,51.79538860333184&t=2019-08-21-T14%3A40%3A00Z&z=1&l=Reference_Labels(hidden),Reference_Features(hidden),Coastlines(hidden),VIIRS_NOAA20_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),VIIRS_SNPP_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor

Tiny black sea cyclone 2019 Aug 23: https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov/?v=30.696796152000008,37.412819135999996,47.57475967200001,46.71328028399999&t=2019-08-23-T14%3A40%3A00Z&z=1&l=Reference_Labels(hidden),Reference_Features(hidden),Coastlines(hidden),VIIRS_NOAA20_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),VIIRS_SNPP_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor

Subtropical black sea cyclone 2019 Oct 7: https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov/?v=16.68235446506246,37.303002006187484,48.95531298506246,55.08674685731249&t=2019-10-07-T14%3A40%3A00Z&z=1&l=Reference_Labels(hidden),Reference_Features(hidden),Coastlines(hidden),VIIRS_NOAA20_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),VIIRS_SNPP_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor

Possible weak subtropical storm in the Caspian sea 2020 Mar 3: https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov/?v=36.84792078300341,30.39723147719119,67.1672759430034,47.104459476816196&t=2020-03-03-T14%3A40%3A00Z&z=1&l=Reference_Labels(hidden),Reference_Features(hidden),Coastlines(hidden),VIIRS_NOAA20_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),VIIRS_SNPP_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor

Extremely tiny cyclone in the caspian sea 2020 April 6: https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov/?v=44.498030869687454,37.624273654781234,59.59178200968745,45.941559439218736&t=2020-04-06-T14%3A40%3A00Z&z=1&l=Reference_Labels(hidden),Reference_Features(hidden),Coastlines(hidden),VIIRS_NOAA20_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),VIIRS_SNPP_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor

Small black sea cyclone 2020 June 12: https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov/?v=21.43825445130659,36.993818034435165,55.18825445130659,55.591474284435165&t=2020-06-12-T14%3A40%3A00Z&z=1&l=Reference_Labels(hidden),Reference_Features(hidden),Coastlines(hidden),VIIRS_NOAA20_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),VIIRS_SNPP_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor

Possible tropical depression in the black sea 2020 June 21: https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov/?v=23.40700445130659,35.728193034435165,57.15700445130659,54.325849284435165&t=2020-06-21-T14%3A40%3A00Z&z=1&l=Reference_Labels(hidden),Reference_Features(hidden),Coastlines(hidden),VIIRS_NOAA20_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),VIIRS_SNPP_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor,MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor

Subtropical Black sea cyclone 2020 July 27 https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov/?v=19.449795644488404,36.888349284435165,53.199795644488404,55.486005534435165&t=2020-07-27-T14%3A40%3A00Z&z=1&l=Reference_Labels(hidden),Reference_Features(hidden),Coastlines(hidden),VIIRS_NOAA20_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),VIIRS_SNPP_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor,MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor

Please reply if you agree or disagree with me or just point something out. Should we make the black sea as it's own article or it's own basin.

We can't include any of these based solely on satellite images. We would need reliable sources identifying them as tropical or subtropical cyclones. TornadoLGS (talk) 22:54, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
None of those are even close to subtropical or tropical. Very clearly troughs, or in some of them, extratropical cyclones. HurricaneGonzalo | Talk | Contribs 14:51, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

New storm?

appeared yesterday night, I only got sat images however https://www.windy.com/?34.705,17.227,6 https://www.windy.com/-Satellite-satellite?satellite,34.071,16.348,6 https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov/?v=4.384212477379473,27.3466928116731,26.590397788621758,39.5832261758889&z=1&l=Reference_Labels(hidden),Reference_Features(hidden),Coastlines(hidden),VIIRS_NOAA20_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),VIIRS_SNPP_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor,MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor,MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor

Edit: https://twitter.com/Medicane_Centre/status/1305972885757067267 I found a twitter post of Tropical storm "Cassilda". Edit 2: twitter has been blown with tropical storm Cassilda, https://twitter.com/TheWatchers_/status/1305940410078986240 https://twitter.com/InfoMeteoTuit/status/1305979113669353473

All of those appear to be private Twitter pages, which are generally not Wikipedia:Reliable sources. And again, we cannot include systems based on you analysis of satellite images because it would violate the policy on original research. TornadoLGS (talk) 21:40, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
I found these pages so It looks like this may be real. Though I am not familiar with the typical providers of information for European systems. TornadoLGS (talk) 21:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
https://twitter.com/doomhaMwx/status/1305890639100354560 here is a post with scans and a sat image of it, and 2020-2021 windstorm season also talked about it a little https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%9321_European_windstorm_season
Right, and we might be able to use the ref provided in the other Wikipedia article, but not someone's private Twitter feed. I suggest you look over the page on reliable sources. TornadoLGS (talk) 22:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Cyclone Ianos which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:07, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Requested page move from Mediterranean tropical-like cyclone to Medicane

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

See the discussion at Talk:Cyclone Ianos for more details. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 19:07, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

See discussion at Talk:Mediterranean tropical-like cyclone#Page move?, I was once pro-move also, but recognise that there are limitations to the term Medicane. I will also make note that increasingly in academic publications over the past decade the term "Mediterranean tropical-like cyclone" has become the predominant way of describing these storms.Lacunae (talk) 19:33, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Oppose per above. Until we get actual TC warnings for these storms, or Medicane became more of an official term, I think the current nuanced title is worth keeping, despite the alternative being more concise. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:37, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
@Hurricanehink: That ship already sailed and I closed it due to confusion on what Medicane means. NoahTalk 00:03, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

22–27 Sep 1969

I see nothing in the Pytharoulis 2000 https://rmets.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1017/S1350482700001511 describing this as a medicane. So I would press for removal unless someone has something referenced, it seems such damage can be perfectly ascribed to a cut off low.Lacunae (talk) 19:37, 25 September 2020 (UTC) then again perhaps I was too quick. It does speak of indications of tropical characteristics, perhaps could do with a more cautious assessment.Lacunae (talk) 19:51, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

@Lacunae: The storm is not included in the 2000 study, because it only included 5 notable TLCs (1982, 1995, 1996, can't remember the other two), but the 2007 and both 2013 studies include the 1969 storm, I believe. 19:54, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Capitalization

The capitalization of M/medicane is inconsistent in the article. --Khajidha (talk) 14:29, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Another new cyclone? ( I'm very bad at judging )

While scrolling thro Nasa worldview and twitter I stumbled across a cyclone with sort of subtropical features in the basin, if anybody can add on or confirm this then please reply

Link to the Nasa worldview: https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov/?v=-4.5619691436341405,26.200893926749117,29.502836359806015,44.972021126040616&z=1&l=Reference_Labels(hidden),Reference_Features(hidden),Coastlines(hidden),VIIRS_NOAA20_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),VIIRS_SNPP_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor,MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor,MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor

Link to Twitter: https://twitter.com/PrometheiPlanum/status/1330488044433051649 https://twitter.com/severeweatherEU/status/1330496299788013569 https://twitter.com/RAM_meteo/status/1330518473177522180 — Preceding unsigned comment added by ColinMorgan 56 (talk • contribs) 17:10, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh yea just type " #Medicane " on twitter and you can see all of these tweets on this system, I wonder.

I concur. This system had the satellite and scatterometer presentation of a midget tropical cyclone. It took an unusal westward track from the MEDSEA into Tunisia, where it made landfall near Monastir early on 22 NOV. Based on the ASCAT passes, given the system's small size, and allowing for some modest undersampling if the instrument, IMO this achieved a peak intensity of tropical storm force (35kt) on 21 NOV, possibly reaching 40kt just prior to landfall early on 22 NOV. AJC3fromS2K (talk) 04:33, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Yet another possibility

Yet another medicane formed I think now in the far eastern Mediterranean sea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ColinMorgan 56 (talk • contribs) 13:25, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Something in the article

It says medicanes can’t build a stable system to keep itself up I think it should say unlikely to as 03M, 01M of last year and hurricane zorbas were all stable — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.18.109.93 (talk) 21:49, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

a medicane form so wanna ask

Idk a medicane in Mediterranean was form 2021-10-14 and landfall in Greece.Did i wrong?

link : https://zoom.earth/#view=36.65,19.03,6z/date=2021-10-15,22:15,+7/layers=wind,radar:off

i also found this medicane also a windstorm and some meteorologists referred to the storm as a medicane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021%E2%80%9322_European_windstorm_season Pls add name if real medicane — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:800:62D2:19E4:E1D9:DB4C:A206:1E0B (talk) 08:28, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Please provide reliable sources saying that system was a medicane. It's not our place to call it one. ~ KN2731 {talk · contribs} 11:35, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

About infoboxs of Numa, Apollo, and Ianos

These 3 systems all had a season listed in the infobox despite the fact the WMO doesn't recognize an actual basin or season in the area yet. Until that occurs we can't put season in there cause we are not the hypothetical hurricane wiki at all.

On a second note i removed all 3 seasons from the systems in this discusions title — Preceding unsigned comment added by HavocPlayz (talk • contribs) 17:41, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Medicanes do have a documented season, as detailed in a number of scholarly sources (including journal articles). As such, they should be kept. Just because it isn't "official" doesn't mean that it shouldn't be included. Honestly, I'm getting tired of users who say that "unofficial" information cannot be used. How many times do I need to tell people that we are NOT limited to using only "official"/"the most official sources???" And since there is no "official" agency for the Mediterranean, there is usually no "official" information for these storms in most cases! LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 17:49, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
Readd it per my reasoning here. NoahTalk 17:57, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
Why are we trying to record Apollo as a part of the 2021-22 Mediterranean tropical-like cyclone season, rather as a part of the EWS season which is more official especially since Apollo was named by an official naming agency.Jason Rees (talk) 18:01, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
@Jason Rees: Reliable sources establish a medicane season specifically for these type of storms. Medicanes and wind storms are fundamentally different; medicanes are somewhat tropical (or allegedly fully in some cases) and wind storms are extratropical. It would be inappropriate to extend the EWS to this when the storms are vastly different in structure and how they derive their strength (convective uplift or baroclinic forcing). NoahTalk 18:06, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
My suspicion is that since the system was officially named by the Italian Met Service, that it was as a part of the Name our storms project that is developed by Meteo France, UKMO, MetEirrean, AEMET etc. As a result, I don't see it as inappropriate to extend the EWS season to cover it, since after all ex tropical cyclones get added in. However, @Lacunae: usually has a better grip on the European naming system than i do.Jason Rees (talk) 19:13, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
@Jason Rees: Per RS ([1] [2] [3] [4] the storm is a medicane. Destroyeraa (Alternate account) 19:28, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
@Destroyeraa: I don't dispute that its a medicine, but would also argue that its an EWS, since it was probably officially named as a part of the Name our storms project and the 2021-22 European windstorm season.Jason Rees (talk) 19:36, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Most Medicane systems tend to be extratropical, subtropical, or rarely fully tropical User:HavocPlayz — Preceding undated comment added 18:07, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

These storms should all be included as a part of their respective "Medicane season" in the infoboxes of their articles. However, the storms that had impacts as a European Windstorm, or were named from a European Windstorm naming list, should also be listed as a part of the concurrent European windstorm season. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 04:11, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
All I can say is that there is a degree of overlap in the naming between the two meteorological entities of European Windstorm and (for short) Medicanes, as in MeteoFrance's naming criteria. In a purist sense I'd sooner have the Medicane events and what are termed "Mediterranean Events" more linked, but we have the naming system based on impacts that has become established, rather than one using meteorological criteria. I don't think given the greater media interest in these events it is impossible to find media for users to differentiate appropriately between Windstorm and Medicane. Personally, I wish Eumetnet would be able to find a way to differentiate, but there is no real imperative for them to do so at present. Though Australia do seem to be working something out with the different risks from tropical cyclones and east coast lows, but they don't name and I'm rambling now.Lacunae (talk) 19:56, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
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