Talk:Melinda French Gates

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Requested move 30 May 2021[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved, per WP:NAMECHANGES. This is not a vote, so I'm looking at the arguments made. Based on the evidence presented during the discussion, sources published recently (after the name change) tend to use the surname French Gates. Comments that don't address WP:NAMECHANGES, the policy on when/if to retitle following a name change, are discounted. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 08:32, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Melinda Gates → Melinda French Gates – WP:NAMECHANGES; she has started referring to herself as "Melinda French Gates" ([1], [2]) and many RS have followed ([3], [4], [5], [6], [7]); see also discussion at #Name 'Melinda French Gates' and not 'Melinda Ann Gates'? ― Tartan357 Talk 02:34, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose An wikipedia article about BLP generally don't use long-form name of the people, whether she/he is alive or dead. For example, we known that long-form name about Bill Clinton is William Jefferson Clinton, but in the article title is still Bill Clinton, so the former is more preferred in article body than later, same as Donald Trump, Joe Biden, Tony Blair, John Major, or even Japanese names with eastern name order (yet still use western name order). So any consensus regarding change of the article body doesn't affect the article title, which is the perfect criteria of WP:COMMONNAME even RS use otherwise. This request move even is surprising for any user who knowed about COMMONNAME policies, even for you itself. 114.125.12.252 (talk) 07:21, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    She's referring to herself commonly as "Melinda French Gates", and so are the media, therefore, that is the common name now, not an uncommon long form name. That it has three words is not important. ― Tartan357 Talk 08:16, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. It’s her chosen form of name, and it is consistently used in sources. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:53, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose weakly – Which name she prefers is not one of the five criteria. The shorter form wins on conciseness. The majority of the sources cited use the shorter form. But she's been using the longer form since at least 2004[8] and I have no doubt it will become more common in cited sources going forward. I just think renaming is premature at this point. GA-RT-22 (talk) 17:42, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    GA-RT-22, actually, it is one of the criteria. Please see WP:SPNC and WP:NAMECHANGES. ― Tartan357 Talk 21:15, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    No, it's not, except indirectly as a consequence of self-published sources. It carries weight but it's not one of the five criteria. GA-RT-22 (talk) 00:33, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    GA-RT-22, sure, it's not one of those five criteria. I think WP:NAMECHANGES is pretty clear, though:

    Sometimes the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change. If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match.

    This discussion should be about what is dominant in sources following the divorce announcement. So, far, I'm the only one who has presented any sources in this discussion. ― Tartan357 Talk 00:36, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. The most common name that she is referred to as is "Melinda Gates". This is the same situation of when we moved Hillary Rodham Clinton to Hillary Clinton. Hillary herself more commonly uses her full name, but she is more commonly know as simply "Hillary Clinton". Rreagan007 (talk) 19:04, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Rreagan007, can you provide sources from after the divorce announcement that refer to her as "Melinda Gates"? I've provided sources to support the new name, which WP:NAMECHANGES says we should give extra weight to. ― Tartan357 Talk 21:17, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Some of your very own sources that you cite in your original proposal with her full legal name also use her more common name. Regardless, it is way too early to know if her full name will catch on in sources or not. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:21, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Rreagan007, I just looked through them again, and that only appears to be the case with the Vox source, because her new name is introduced in that article: Upon posting the announcement, Melinda Gates added her maiden name, French, to her Twitter profile, suggesting that she may use the full name “Melinda French Gates” going forward. ― Tartan357 Talk 01:24, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    And your Reuters source in the picture caption "Melinda Gates (L) speaks to Oprah Winfrey..."[9] and in the title of your business insider source "Bill and Melinda Gates might shake up..."[10] Rreagan007 (talk) 01:31, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Rreagan007, image captions, seriously? The text in the articles should weigh more. What's really telling is that these articles use "Ms. French Gates". Do we really have no respect for the fact that she's getting divorced and wants to retain some of her own identity? BLP guidelines encourage us to respect changes in self-identification if the sources do. ― Tartan357 Talk 01:35, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The same sort of argument was made and rejected when we moved the Hillary Clinton article. And it would be incorrect English to refer to her as "Ms. French Gates" unless she were to hyphenate her name and be "Ms. French-Gates". And the fact that your sources are still using a mix of "Melinda Gates" and "Melinda French Gates" makes me think that this adding her maiden/middle name is just a flash in the pan because her divorce is so fresh. Let's wait and see how sources are referring to her after a year. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:40, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as Melinda Gates is her long-established common name. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 19:55, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Nkon21, it doesn't matter that that's her long-established name. We give precedence to the most current name when someone undergoes a name change, as she has chosen to do because of her divorce. Please read WP:NAMECHANGES. ― Tartan357 Talk 21:14, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    14,700,000 results appear when searching for "Melinda Gates" on Google and when searching for "Melinda French Gates", only 695,000 turn up as of now. WP:COMMONNAME takes precedence in this case as Melinda French Gates is not what the media or the GP primarily recognizes her by. Also, just because Kim Kardashian calls herself Kim Kardashian West and some sources followed that suit did not justify that page being moved. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 21:53, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Nkon21, well, of course there's more hits for the former; the latter is new. She just changed her name a few weeks ago. And the WP:NAMECHANGES guideline—which is specific to this situation—takes precedence over WP:COMMONNAME:

    Sometimes the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change. If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match.

    What matters is whether most sources have followed suit. They didn't for Kardashian, so that page has not been moved, but they have for French Gates, so this page should be. ― Tartan357 Talk 22:58, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Tartan357, There are still a great chunk of sources ([11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18]), that refer to her only as "Melinda Gates", not "Melinda French Gates" aligning with her name that has been long established for the majority of her career. "Melinda French Gates" is not yet a prominent name in her career that warrants the page move at this time. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 01:59, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME guidance. Source provided by Tartan357 that she is now known as "Melinda French Gates" did not enough to justify the page move as general people and media still recognize her as "Melinda Gates", same as Donald John Trump, which is more known as "Donald Trump". In fact "Melinda French Gates" is more an official name of her and there is a long-term significance about how she is called, which is more commonly known as "Melinda Gates". 116.206.35.26 (talk) 00:03, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Do you have sources? So far, only I have provided any sources at all in this discussion. ― Tartan357 Talk 00:06, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And many of your own sources contradict your arguments by using "Melinda Gates" as her name, negating the need to offer other sources. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:06, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: We have an actual guideline on Wikipedia regarding name changes: WP:NAMECHANGES. Arguments should be based on this guideline, not some broader interpretation of WP:COMMONNAME. Further, arguments must be supported by sources. Please, consider the guideline and examine and present actual sources, instead of making blind assumptions that "French" is just her middle name. ― Tartan357 Talk 00:17, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I see no indication here that her name has actually changed. Her full legal name seems to have always been "Melinda French Gates" and her common name is "Melinda Gates". Even the sources you cited as evidence for this move also use her more common name "Melinda Gates". Bill Gates signs his name as "William H. Gates III", that doesn't mean we should move his article. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:18, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Rreagan007, the thing about Bill Gates is a misrepresentation of the arguments I'm making here. I am NOT suggesting we base a move on an obscure, full legal name only used in formal settings (as would be the case for "William H. Gates III"). She has chosen "Melinda French Gates" as her common name now. It's even her new name on her Twitter profile, which is among the most informal of settings. It's her name—she gets to decide what it is, and she's clearly made this change across her online presence as a way to set herself apart from her estranged husband. Bill Gates, on the other hand, still likes to be called Bill Gates. Do not make straw man arguments. ― Tartan357 Talk 01:36, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Rreagan007, I see no indication here that her name has actually changed is a bit dubious as she has changed her name on all her social media, and it's been reported on in the Vox source I provided, among others. ― Tartan357 Talk 01:41, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You're extrapolating an awful lot from her twitter page. Have you actually asked her what she wants to be referred to as or what she would prefer her Wikipedia article title to be? Did she issue a press release saying that from now on her public name will be this as some artists will do when they try to change thei name? Regardless, it's not totally up to her. She can state a preference (which I'm not convinced she's actually done), but it's up to reliable sources as to what they choose to refer to her as most commonly going forward. Which is why we should be waiting before making this type of move for a very high profile figure article. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:59, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Rreagan007, she made the change on all her social media accounts and her profile at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation website right after she announced her divorce. Are you telling me you think that was a coincidence? ― Tartan357 Talk 18:56, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
When they change the name of the foundation to the "Bill and Melinda French Gates Foundation" let me know. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:32, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Rreagan007, which has nothing to do with the point I just made about her making some very public changes to her name immediately following the divorce announcement. Changing the name of the foundation will require Bill's consent and a lengthy legal process. Melinda changing her own name is a matter of self-identification. And, it would be the Bill Gates and Melinda French Gates (as sources such as WSJ have been referring to the pair) Foundation, since I doubt Bill would be too keen on adding "French" to his last name. ― Tartan357 Talk 19:52, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It is not just a matter of self-identification. There is a legal process for changing one's name. Regardless, it's still a matter of what sources do and how she is most commonly known going forward. As I have pointed out before, this is exactly like the precedent of "Hillary Clinton" vs. "Hillary Rodham Clinton". Rreagan007 (talk) 21:27, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Rreagan007, that's not precedent. Hillary Clinton is not relevant here. See WP:OTHERCONTENT. But yes, I agree that it's the sources that matter, which is why I provided several that have adopted the change. ― Tartan357 Talk 21:29, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Precedent does matter per WP:CONSISTENT. Wikipedia:OTHERCONTENT is merely an essay, which is neither a Wikipedia policy nor a guideline. And your own sources are contradictory and inconsistent in their usage. Rreagan007 (talk) 21:30, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Rreagan007, where in WP:CONSISTENT does it say individual RM discussions create binding precedent? The nature of Wikipedia (being openly editable by anyone), means such a system would not work. WP:JustAnEssay; I cited OTHERCONTENT not as policy, but as an explanation of this idea. ― Tartan357 Talk 21:42, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Bottom line: arguments in RM discussions must be based on article title policy, nothing else. It says so right in the RM header. If you want to debate what's common in the sources, fine. But please, don't continue this made-up nonsense about a Hillary Clinton "precedent", which has no basis in policy. ― Tartan357 Talk 21:49, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I suspect this RM would have been resolved a lot easier if we'd waited for ~3 months or so to make it very clear that usage really has shifted, but via WP:NOTBURO, I suppose there's no harm in moving it now, because it'd be pretty surprising if it didn't. Checking some recent news sources... see [19] (May 13 article that always uses "French Gates" except when referring to the foundation), [20] (May 17 article, usually uses "French Gates", uses just "Melinda Gates" for a YouTube video and its caption though), [21] (May 27 article, uses French Gates). Fair disclaimer: [22] , from the local Seattle Times, still uses "Melinda Gates". But eh, I'll take what the NYT / WaPo / WSJ are using, those are high-quality news sources that will likely set the standard for future reporting. SnowFire (talk) 21:35, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is exactly why we should be waiting on making this type of change. There is no consistency to usage. Wikipedia follows what the sources do, we don't lead them. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:04, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:NAMECHANGES. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 21:50, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now Just providing a plenty sources from high-quality news media does not mean that this Wikipedia article need to follow them, so it more like Hannover vs Hanover RMs issue (see on Hanover talk page). From this point, it needs a long-term significance and WP:COMMONNAME evidence to justify the page move. While some source using "French Gates" (confusing?), "Melinda French Gates", etc, she is still known as "Melinda Gates" per majority of news source as it has long-established name than "Melinda French Gates". 182.1.47.252 (talk) 00:25, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note for closer: Not to prejudice the discussion, but three of the opposes are IP addresses that geolocate to Indonesia and don't seem to have made many edits anywhere else. Obviously if their arguments are deemed convincing, that's great, but I'd suggest not giving them a lot of weight on a sheer votecount basis. SnowFire (talk) 00:52, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    SnowFire, thank you. These arguments are not very policy-savvy, and seem to be variants of WP:OTHERCONTENT, i.e. that other articles don't use three-word names in titles, which is based on the dubious assumption that "French" is a middle name. ― Tartan357 Talk 01:14, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    "French" is a middle name unless it's hyphenated making it part of her last name. I haven't seen it being hyphenated anywhere, have you? Rreagan007 (talk) 18:01, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Rreagan007, just because it's not hyphenated does not mean it's a middle name. ― Tartan357 Talk 18:58, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes that's exactly what it means. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:30, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Rreagan007, and you base this on what? I see no evidence that she has dropped her middle name, Ann. This is just like her mother-in-law, Mary Maxwell Gates, who had "Ann" as a middle name and "Maxwell Gates" as a last name. ― Tartan357 Talk 19:48, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Based on standard English convention. You can have two middle names but only one last name. Many married women will drop their given middle name and use their maiden name as their middle name, but some keep both as middle names. And women who intend to use both their maiden name and married name together as a last name use a hyphen between them to indicate this. Rreagan007 (talk) 21:23, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Double-barrelled surnames do not always use a hyphen. Helena Bonham Carter is an example. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 21:57, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    They almost always are hyphenated in English. Interestingly, in your specific example, her grandfather was Maurice Bonham-Carter, so I guess the hyphen got dropped along the way for some reason. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:26, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    "Almost always", so no reason to assume it definitely must be the case here then. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 04:07, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Unless you have reliable sources that say she is now using a double last name without a hyphen, then yes we should assume what is the overwhelming norm that her last name is still "Gates" and that "French" is used as a middle name. Rreagan007 (talk) 06:14, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Rreagan007, we do have a reliable source saying that; the Wall Street Journal uses "Ms. French Gates". That trumps your assumption. ― Tartan357 Talk 06:17, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
“Ms. French Gates has pushed for governance changes in the wake of the divorce filing ...”. That’s pretty impressive, reputable source uses “French Gates” as her surname. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:51, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And here the Wall Street Journal calls her "Ms. Gates": "Ms. Gates consulted with divorce lawyers roughly two years before..."[23] So we have conflicting usage from the exact same source. Which is exactly why it's way too soon to move this article, as clearly usage as to her last name hasn't been sorted out yet. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:07, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Rreagan007, my source is much more recent. ― Tartan357 Talk 20:36, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yes, 18 days is much more recent (sarcasm). Rreagan007 (talk) 02:54, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Rreagan007, it is in the timeline of the divorce. Also, be nice. ― Tartan357 Talk 03:39, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Rreagan007, regardless, the immediate issue about whether "French" is part of her surname vs. a middle name has been resolved by the source I provided. ― Tartan357 Talk 01:04, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No it most certainly has not. Here's a source more recent than yours that refers to her as "Melinda French Gates" and then in the next sentence refers to her as "Ms. Gates".[24] Rreagan007 (talk) 02:54, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Rreagan007, well, you're the one who chose to change the subject from the middle name debate back to what surname is most common in the sources. Also, I'll take The Wall Street Journal's reporting over that of Opera News any day. ― Tartan357 Talk 03:42, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt the Wall Street Journal is privy to some special incite into whether she's using "French" as a middle name, which would be much more common, or as a double last name, which would be very uncommon. The point is different sources are doing things differently. We're way too close to the divorce to know how this will eventually shake out. Regardless, it doesn't make much difference either way if it's a middle name or double last name, as we often have articles titled with just a first and single last name in the case of people from a Hispanic background who have both a paternal and maternal last name if they are more commonly known by a single last name. The bottom line is that she's still more commonly known as "Melinda Gates", so that's what the article title should be. Rreagan007 (talk) 06:14, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Rreagan007, so, even though I've provided a source, as you asked, to show that French is part of her new surname, you're still saying we should just go by your assumption that a double last name [is] very uncommon and therefore the WSJ is probably wrong? Seriously, the WSJ outweighs your personal opinion. If you really want to keep doubting the WSJ's reporting, which most editors regard very highly, WP:RSN is the proper venue for that. I think I know how that will go, but you're welcome to try. Your latter point about "Melinda Gates" possibly being more common is the more pertinent matter of dispute. I've provided several high-quality sources to back up "Melinda French Gates", as well as citing WP:NAMECHANGES, which advises us to err on the side of respecting changes in self-identification and to give extra weight to sources after the change. You and others have provided some sources as well, but they seem to be of lower quality, such as E! News and Opera News. ― Tartan357 Talk 06:28, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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