Talk:Michael E. Mann/Archive 3

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

HSI

HSI isn't a good book, and our article on it isn't a good article, and spamming a link to the bio of everyone concerned is a bad idea, and so is singling out a few. So I've removed the link William M. Connolley (talk) 13:29, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Funnily enough i disagree, so i`m going to put it back, and as you have not read it how do you know if it`s good or not? mark nutley (talk) 13:40, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

So you are saying that you will edit-war over it? Not really a good argument is it? BLP comes into play here since the book claims conspiracy and deliberate fraud. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:22, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually no it does not, were did you get the idea that it claims that? And how am i edit warring? mark nutley (talk) 14:29, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

You are at 1RR (your personal limit) and your statement was "i disagree, so i`m going to put it back" - no attempts at convincing - no arguments based on policy - in fact just a bold statement that you were going to revert (apparently no matter what). As for where i did get that idea? Well - first of all i read the subtitle of the book, then i've read several excerpts on Google books. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:15, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Even if it does, if its a reliable source, there is no problem. I've seen you insert plenty of sources alleging conspiracy in other BLP articles; what's the difference here? FellGleaming (talk) 17:58, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea that its a reliable source? Do please remember that reliability is dependent on context. And just for your information - i have never inserted anything "alleging conspiracy". --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:15, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

You inserted reams of material alleging conspiracy in corporate funding links to climate skeptics. As for the source, the context of, "if it attacks skeptics, it's reliable; if it attacks the mainstream, it's not", is not a reasonable yardstick. FellGleaming (talk) 18:25, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

That is true kim, you used exxonsecrets in a blp did`nt you mark nutley (talk) 18:32, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Not that it matters since first of all funding is not conspiracy, and this isn't a forum to discuss such - the enforcement board isn't far away. Secondly i have never "inserted" exxonsecrets to my knowledge - i may have reverted a bad edit where exxonsecrets was part - but i have never added it to an article. Sorry. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:28, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Nope sorry FG - i haven't (do try to differentiate between reverting a bad edit, and inserting) [funding btw. is not conspiracy - its a potential conflict of interest]. And my definition of what is or isn't a reliable source doesn't differ between skeptics or mainstream articles. If you are going to continue down this line, then i would suggest that you create a user RfC or start an enforcement procedure - since i'm done accepting personal attacks. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:28, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Pointless fiddling

This [1] is just pointless fiddling. I'll revert it when my share comes back again William M. Connolley (talk) 15:31, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Released, Hacked or discovered

I changed to released here, partly because it's the longer standing wording, but mainly because it seems less POV than either 'hacked' or 'discovered'. Thepm (talk) 23:24, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry but it is POV by omission. "released" indicates that it may have been legal - "discovered" tells another POV story (oh - that elusive insider) - while hacked tells it the way most reliable sources state it. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:27, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

If we're speaking English, "leaked" is the correct term. "Released" implies intentional action, "hacked" is far worse -- it can mean a dozen different things, and even in its closest context, you hack a system, not a piece of data (such as an email) on the system.

"Leaked" however, means: "To disclose without authorization or official sanction". Which describes the situation perfectly, despite obfuscatory attempts to the contrary. And many reliable sources have used just that term. Fell Gleaming^(talk) 23:29, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

It was shown as 'released' for several months prior to the latest changes and, at least in part, that was why I changed it. The article Climatic Research Unit email controversy has, as its first two sentences;

The Climatic Research Unit email controversy (dubbed "Climategate" in the media) began in November 2009 with the Internet leak of thousands of emails and other documents from the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit (CRU). According to the university, the emails and documents were obtained through the hacking of a server.

(bolding is mine)

This would suggest that neither discovered nor hacked can be used without additional explanation that would seem to be out of place here. 'Released' just seemed the most neutral word to me. Happy to change it to anything else except 'hacked' or 'discovered'. Thepm (talk) 23:39, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

That's it exactly, ThePm. The server was hacked, but the emails were leaked. Fell Gleaming^(talk) 00:46, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

People who don't know how to write for the enemy have no business changing these wordings. Demonstrate that you can with a diff before changing it again. Hipocrite (talk) 00:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Climatic Research Unit emails section

Hipocrite is correct. This section is now either a coatrack, or so close to it that it doesn't matter. Also, it reads like an out of date newspaper article. It needs to remain relevant to Mann and it needs to be a balanced discussion of events that took place. My attempt at rewording is;

Mann's correspondence with fellow climate researchers was included in the Climatic Research Unit email controversy.^[1] In an interview broadcast by the BBC, Mann commented that the "emails are genuine and have been misrepresented, cherry-picked, mined for single words and phrases that can be completely twisted to imply the opposite of what was actually being said..." ^[2] He wrote in The Washington Post that the e-mails "do not undermine the scientific case that human-caused climate change is real."^[3]

Penn State University commenced an inquiry into the matter in December 2009,^[4] "following a well defined policy used in such cases".^[5] Their report was published on February 3, 2010 and found there was no credible evidence on three of the four allegations and stated that it did not have enough information to draw a conclusion on the fourth question: whether Mann had deviated from accepted practices within the academic community. The inquiry remanded the fourth complaint to a panel of five prominent Penn State scientists for further investigation.^[6]

I think it should also somehow mention that Mann had been attacked/criticised as a result of his correspondence, because that's what's relevant to Mann. The second paragraph makes it clear that he has been cleared to date, but any discussion of Mann would be incomplete without some sort of coverage of the intense scrutiny and criticism that he copped following ~~climategate~~ the ~~release~~ ~~hacking~~ ~~discovery~~ CRU incident (is 'incident' ok?). Thepm (talk) 02:38, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

For now, I've replaced the contentious piece with the corresponding section from Climatic Research Unit email controversy, which was the result of careful deliberation there. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:23, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Well done. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:54, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

It looks ridiculous, it has to be changed back to Climategate, you know, that word the rest of the world uses mark nutley (talk) 10:28, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Do you have any other problem with the text? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:32, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

None at all, just the section title mark nutley (talk) 13:34, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with the section title. However, having thought about it some more I think the section as a whole is undue weight - comprising nearly half of the entire article - which doesn't reflect the relative significance of this issue. It may not be intended to be a coatrack but it effectively acts as one. Following the example set on Phil Jones (climatologist), I've shrunk the section to a single paragraph, taking out the section title altogether and reflected the four key facts - that some of his e-mails were involved in the CRU controversy, that allegations of wrongdoing were made, that he rejected the allegations, and that PSU cleared him of research misconduct. There's no need to elaborate further - otherwise we just duplicate the CRU controversy article and coatrack-ise this one. -- ChrisO (talk) 16:40, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Thats not de-coatracking, that`s whitewashing, with copious amounts of paint. And you seem to be intent on calling climategate by the wrong name, why is this? mark nutley (talk) 16:51, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

We're talking about a distinguished scientist with numerous honours and awards and many years of work. Dedicating nearly half of a biographical article to a single issue - namely allegations which have turned out to be bogus - is grossly disproportionate. -- ChrisO (talk) 17:06, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Not when the majority of his press coverage which gave him his notability is about the climategate scandal. mark nutley (talk) 17:58, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Nonsense. His public profile comes largely from the famous "hockey stick" graph, long before the CRU controversy. His role in that controversy was relatively marginal - a couple of the most controversial e-mails were sent to him, not by him. I'm well aware that he is a hate figure on the denialist blogs that you appear to frequent, which I suggest has distorted your judgement. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:52, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Mann's involvement with the CRU stuff was peripheral; and the entire thing has turned out to be overblown by the press and the "skeptics". So anything here should be very brief. The idea that Mann's notability comes from CRU shows a very shallow understanding William M. Connolley (talk) 18:57, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Mann's involvement in the CRUstuffgate is what most people would know him for. I have no doubt that he's a distinguished scientist with many awards, but if you asked Bill Bloggs-Onthestreet who Michael Mann is he would say something about CRUstuffgate. That's if he didn't say he was the founder of the Sex Pistols. Most news articles about Mann seem to be related to CRUstuffgate.

You're right that it shows a shallow understanding and ChrisO's comment that he's "largely from the famous "hockey stick" graph" would be right if it wasn't for CRUstuffgate, but there you go. Furthermore, I think you're doing Mann a disservice by not covering his involvement in those events. Mann has undergone a level of scrutiny that few scientists would ever endure. To date, he's come out of it pretty much squeaky. It's a major event in his life. It's got to be covered. Thepm (talk) 22:29, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

I still disagree with you. Compared to the coverage of the MBH stuff NRC, Wegmann, this was comparatively trivial for Mann. Of course, as the most recent event it inevitably looks big, but as it receedes into the distance it will become ever more obviously a molehill (for Mann, certainly; probably for almost everyone else) William M. Connolley (talk) 07:51, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

If you are correct it that assessment then that would be the time to condense the section mark nutley (talk) 08:00, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

It already is a molehill. Mann was on the periphery of the CRU controversy; as I pointed out earlier, the most controversial e-mails were sent to him, not by him, or otherwise discussed his work. Since he was exonerated subsequently, this is a case of "nothing to see here, move along." -- ChrisO (talk) 08:07, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

OK, before I reply I'll put my ignorance on display for all to see. What's NRC? Thepm (talk) 08:53, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Since you make yourself vulnerable I *will* snark at you: it is revealing that you know what Wegman is but don't know about NRC, which was the real report: see Hockey stick controversy William M. Connolley (talk) 08:58, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Maybe I knew about neither (maybe, for example, neither redirects). Maybe I figured asking about one would tell me what the other is :) Reading now, will reply soon. Thepm (talk) 09:14, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Maybe, but you didn't ask about Wegmann (not sure how many N's BTW). And indeed you are correct: one will tell you about the other William M. Connolley (talk) 09:41, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Investigation into Mann by VA Attorney General

I just added a line indicating the new investigation by the VA Attorney General, looking into Mann's work while at UVA: http://www.scribd.com/doc/30755623/Untitled We can add additional sources, as needed. Virnbaum (talk) 06:07, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I've removed it for now. A primary document with unknown provenance is an insufficient source for a WP:BLP. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:31, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Reliable secondary source needed, and note that not only is Wikipedia not news, but due weight needs to be given to the context and significance to Mann, if any. Va politician launches expensive fishing expedition for documents at the expense of a university where Mann used to work, damaging to Va but doubtful if it has any standing as far as Mann is concerned. Quote of the day,[2] "Even Fred Singer now admits they are still looking for the smoking gun. What is it with Republicans and elusive weapons?" . . dave souza, talk 06:41, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

FOXNews.com State of Virginia to Investigate Global Warming Scientist Mann. Virginia Attorney General Letter. Even though this appears to be real, I think it would be wise to not report anything until the results are known. Q Science (talk) 06:42, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

As with all things, we need a proper balance. I agree that the original news item sounds like, well NEWS, and properly excluded. However, I'm not convinced that the suggested rule - no mention until the results are released - is a good rule. Ideally, we need to distinguish between RS coverage which is coverage of a news event, and coverage which establishes notability of an event, but I'm not sure how best to do that. I'm in support of waiting and monitoring to see where this goes (hopefully nowhere), but I'm not yet acceding to the belief that there should be no mention prior to the release of results.--SPhilbrick T 14:06, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Probably inappropriate to titter about this, but it does seem laughably ridiculous and we'll have to see how the dust settles. Agree with Sphilbrick, we need to see if it gets any traction but don't have to await the iinal results. Interesting to note McI's view, but of course as a blog it's an unsuitable source. . . dave souza, talk 14:54, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Better to wait till it`s over. I suspect this is a political move to gain some media coverage by the AG rather than an actual investigation mark nutley (talk) 15:28, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

That's a very real possibility, in which case we should avoid becoming an enabler.--SPhilbrick T 15:33, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

This edit seems like a well sourced addition to the page, but I'm curious as to what extent we wish or expect to be a source for news about the ongoing suit. I mean, this is a page about a person, not about fall out from climategate. I'm not sure I object to the article the way it is, but I fear that if this suit is dragged out, Dr. Mann's article could turn into a play-by-play about these sorts of things. Thought? jhe_iv (talk) 06:43, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I think we should confine ourselves to summarising it; following the story is more suited to Wikinews. I've had a go at rewriting this section to confine it to the three key facts - the CID being filed, a summary of reaction to it, and the university filing suit to overturn it. The result of the suit will be a fourth key fact when it's been announced. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:32, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree with ChrisO and JHeiv - this should not become a blow-by-blow update. Frankly, I think the counter-suit, which is really just a procedural motion, is more detail than necessary at this time. Unless it turns onto something major, which is unlikely, I see the three key items as filing, reaction, and results, recognizing that the first iteration of reaction will simply be reaction to the filing, and ultimately it will be reaction to the filing and the results.--SPhilbrick T 13:54, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I think we have to mention the UVA action (not strictly a counter-suit, btw, since Cuccinelli's CID was an administrative action rather than a lawsuit) since we otherwise have nothing on the university's position. But otherwise I agree with your characterisation of the key items as filing, reaction and results. -- ChrisO (talk) 14:47, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

It's misleading just to mention the 1st amendment defense, as the UVa has given reasons why Cuccinelli does not have the authority to demand the documents, so have briefly noted that. He's apparently going beyond his powers under the Virginia Fraud Against Taxpayers Act, we don't seem to have an article on that. . . dave souza, talk 15:40, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

He may or may not be. I'm not an attorney, but I assume that reasonable attorneys even disagree on this. I think proposing that people may have gone outside their powers, regardless of whether they're properly sourced, comes close enough to BLP to be avoided except in rare circumstances. I mean, Cuccinelli filed suit, and UVA has responded. Until we get a final result, my opinion is that the article should be left at that. No opining on legal tactics or discussing related case law. Just my $0.02. jhe_iv (talk) 20:40, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

A less cynical outsider might think that when an Attorney General issues demands these would be made competently with the full authority of the law. UVa dispute that,[3] and we should not leave the misleading impression that the Attorney General's authority to make these specific demands is uncontested. . . dave souza, talk 20:52, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

That's a fair point, though I think we should avoid going into too much detail. I think your wording has it about right. Good job. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:46, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Not sure if it was the way it is now before I last commented, but after reading it, I agree that the wording as it is is very good. Sorry for any confusion. jhe_iv (talk) 04:59, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Rv: why

I don't see how this [5] improves stuff. his findings had been "independently verified by independent teams using alternative methods and alternative data sources" is very different to many of the claims of modern climate science have been independently verified. I'm not sure MN knows what Mann is talking about here William M. Connolley (talk) 09:28, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Weird, why are you speaking for Souza? Is he an alternate account of yours or something? Perhaos if you look at the source you will see not all global warming science is settled which would indicate that many of the claims, but not all have been verified. However Dave`s edit is misrepresenting the source as no-were in there does mann say his findings had been "independently verified by independent teams using alternative methods and alternative data sources mark nutley (talk) 09:39, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

My revert must have clashed with his William M. Connolley (talk) 09:56, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

As for your claim that the quote isn't in the source: you're wrong [6] William M. Connolley (talk) 09:58, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

...where you can read "But in the interview with The Morning Call, Mann says at least a dozen studies have replicated his work and confirmed his conclusions. The more relevant question scientifically is whether our findings have been independently verified by independent teams using alternative methods and alternative data sources, he said. And the answer is definitively yes." Mark, please read beyond the first page! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:25, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

The source says that Mann is confirming that not all the GW science is settled. This is the main point here. Isn't it "And in a wide-ranging interview, Mann says that not all global warming science is settled."? Nsaa (talk) 22:09, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes most certainly the most notable thing said in that interview mark nutley (talk) 22:41, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

That's the teaser to the article, not what Mann actually says. The detailed account is properly paraphrased, at present. We note his important statement that his work has been independently verified, mention his point that major conclusions have been settled by climate science, then note the areas he describes as not yet settled. Those denying AGW might prefer to give the misleading impression that he didn't say anything about what's settled, but we should be more careful. Perhaps we should also mention that "Not every doomsday scenario is accurate either, he said, but scientists have reached a consensus that civilization faces serious problems if CO2 emissions are not reduced." and go into more detail on "Among the major conclusions settled by climate science, Mann said, are: That carbon dioxide levels are increasing rapidly in the atmosphere. That humans are responsible for this rise in greenhouse-gas levels. That global warming is shrinking the polar ice sheets and Ice Age glaciers. That the last half of the 20th century was warmer than any 50-year period in the last 1,000 years." Rather more significant than the polar bears and hurricane frequency. . .dave souza, talk 22:49, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

It is factually incorrect to say that the text "And in a wide-ranging interview, Mann says that not all global warming science is settled." is the "teaser to the article". This is obvious to anyone who actually read the article. That text is the seventh paragraph of the body of the article. Teasers are found before the body of the article not within it. It is also fair to assume that none of the editors here were present during the interview itself so the best person to paraphrase what Mann said in the interview is the interviewer, not us. --98.135.56.175 (talk) 14:27, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

It's also a completely trivial commonplace. In science, the more you know, the more new questions open up. "The science" is never settled, even if certain parts are beyond reasonable doubt. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:56, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant to this discussion. --98.135.56.175 (talk) 14:27, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

On page 4 of this source it states the following:

Among the propositions that remain unsettled, according to Mann:

That without a reduction in man-made CO2 emissions, large sections of coastal cities will be under water by the end of this century. (This is unlikely, he said, but other low-lying areas are threatened now, and more warming risks inundating those cities in future centuries.)
That global warming is causing more frequent hurricanes. (This is uncertain.)
That 1998 was the warmest year of the last millennium. (But he believes it was.)
That current warmth of the planet is reducing the polar bear population.

The current summary provided by dave souza completely ignores points 1 and 3 which are clearly the most significant of the 4. For Mann himself to admit that the claim of 1998 being the warmest year of the last millennium is unsettled science is highly significant in this context and yet it has been ignored. For these reasons I believe that the current summary fails the NPOV test and this should be corrected by including mention of all four of these points. I suggest the following:

In an interview in The Morning Call in March 2010 he stated that his findings had been "independently verified by independent teams using alternative methods and alternative data sources", and that while major conclusions had been settled by climate science not all global warming science is settled. Mann indicated that among the unsettled propositions were items such as: whether coastal cities will be under water by the end of this century, whether global warming is causing more frequent hurricanes, whether 1998 was the warmest year of the last millennium, and whether the current warmth of the planet is reducing the polar bear population.

Since the page is semi-protected I would ask one of the regulars here to make this change. --98.135.56.175 (talk) 14:56, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Fully agree and done mark nutley (talk) 15:06, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Why on Earth should this be important? Who has ever claimed that cities will be under water at the end of the century? Or that 1998 was the warmest year in the last 1000? I'm going to remove as WP:UNDUE. Wikipedia is not here to debunk strange claims. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:13, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I also fail to see why we would write anything about Polar bears - something which isn't even remotely connected to Mann's research. Hurricanes on the other hand are at least related to one of his papers. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:15, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

We are talking about this because this is directly related to Mann's own notability as a climate scientist. It would be very hard to make a case that Mann is a denier and so when he points out that things are not settled and which things those are it is highly relevant to Mann and his notable opinions. Based on your reaction you seem to be surprised that Mann would admit these things and yet here they are in a reliable source. Our readers should be fully informed on Mann's views in this respect. --98.135.56.175 (talk) 15:54, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

None of these have anything to do with Mann's notability. He is not in any way known for stating (or debunking) whether cities are going to be under water, nor whether Polar bears are already dying out (or even whether they are dying out in the future). All of this are "sceptical" misunderstandings (or myths), and there are plenty of websites that debunk these... Sorry but this simply isn't biographical (or for that matter encyclopedic). --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:57, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I have included all four examples, as that seems uncontrovercial. I decline, however, to rewrite the paragraph to make it seem that Mann doubts "global warming science." Hipocrite (talk) 16:25, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I thank you for your assistance thus far. I disagree, however, that the suggested edit makes it seem that "Mann doubts global warming science". Quite the opposite. It makes it clear that he believes some major propositions have been settled and that some other global warming propositions remain unsettled. Do you disagree that the interviewer, the person that actually talked to Mann, summarized his position as being "not all Global Warming science is settled"? This too should be uncontroversial and it is clearly verifiable, or do you still disagree? --98.135.56.175 (talk) 16:36, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Like Hipcrite and Kim, I think that the current wording is better. The phrase "not all global warming science is settled" is ambiguous and can be taken out of context. Your phrasing here, "he believes some major propositions have been settled and that some other global warming propositions remain unsettled", suggests a false equivalence between all the major conclusions that are settled, and the relatively minor propositions that are unsettled. That should be uncontroversial. . . dave souza, talk 18:57, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I do find it controversial - as i can't see any rationale for stating this on Mann's biography. What on Earth does this have to do here? These are all "urban legends" amongst the sceptics and have nothing to do with Mann. We aren't here to explain to people what the basic science is, and what is and isn't considered settled. We are here to describe Mann from a biographical point of view. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:50, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

"For Mann himself to admit that the claim of 1998 being the warmest year of the last millennium is unsettled science is highly significant in this context " - why? It's fairly well-known that the NASA GIS has 2005 as the warmest year. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:34, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

US Senate response to Climatic Research Unit email controversy

In February 2010, the United States Senate issued a report stating that “the scientists involved in the CRU controversy violated fundamental ethical principles governing taxpayer-funded research and, in some cases, may have violated federal laws. In addition to these findings, we believe the emails and accompanying documents seriously compromise the IPCC-backed “consensus” and its central conclusion that anthropogenic emissions are inexorably leading to environmental catastrophes.” The US Senate report further states that “CRU emails show scientists Obstructing release of damaging data and information; Manipulating data to reach preconceived conclusions; Colluding to pressure journal editors who published work questioning the climate science “consensus”; and Assuming activist roles to influence the political process.”

Mann’s name appears 108 times in the 84 page report. About Mann specifically the report says “Mann and his colleagues were not disinterested scientists. They acted more like a priestly caste, viewing substantive challenges to their work as heresy. And rather than welcoming criticism and debate as essential to scientific progress, they launched a campaign of petty invective against scientists who dared question their findings and methods. Mann and his colleagues cast their opponents as industry shills masquerading as scientists, savaging their reputations, while assuaging themselves that they and they alone possessed the truth.”

The full senate report is accessible at http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=7db3fbd8-f1b4-4fdf-bd15-12b7df1a0b63

Mzq3w7 (talk) 00:26, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

That's not a senate report, it's a report by the minority of one committee - it's not notable, as it was not noted by reliable secondary sources. 00:32, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)This is not a "Senate report" - but a political document presenting the views of minority of a Senate committee. Its isn't official - and has only been published on the minority blog. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 00:33, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I am ASTONISHED the report would be considered unimportant. The report contains the full texts of all the e-mails. It seemed like a great reference source full of the actual information instead of charged language. It is the kind of thing I want to know. At least it should be included in the reference listings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mzq3w7 (talk • contribs) 01:02, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm astonished how they managed to fit "the full text of all the" 1000 emails into an 84 page report. And why they chose "A Sampling of Emails and Documents" as the title of the appendix in which they print them... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 05:49, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Wow - you guys are awesome. I hadn't wanted to believe there really was a concerted effort to whitewash. I'm saddened. Mzq3w7 (talk) 19:24, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Mzq3w7, 10 July 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} Please ADD TEXT AFTER the statement "Pennsylvania State University in 2010 cleared Mann of any research misconduct, stating that "there is no substance" to the allegations against him."

PLEASE ADD THE FOLLOWING TEXT

However, in February 2010, the United States Senate issued a report stating that “the scientists involved in the CRU controversy violated fundamental ethical principles governing taxpayer-funded research and, in some cases, may have violated federal laws. In addition to these findings, we believe the emails and accompanying documents seriously compromise the IPCC-backed “consensus” and its central conclusion that anthropogenic emissions are inexorably leading to environmental catastrophes.” The US Senate report further states that “CRU emails show scientists Obstructing release of damaging data and information; Manipulating data to reach preconceived conclusions; Colluding to pressure journal editors who published work questioning the climate science “consensus”; and Assuming activist roles to influence the political process.”

Mann’s name appears 108 times in the 84 page report. About Mann specifically the report says “Mann and his colleagues were not disinterested scientists. They acted more like a priestly caste, viewing substantive challenges to their work as heresy. And rather than welcoming criticism and debate as essential to scientific progress, they launched a campaign of petty invective against scientists who dared question their findings and methods. Mann and his colleagues cast their opponents as industry shills masquerading as scientists, savaging their reputations, while assuaging themselves that they and they alone possessed the truth.”

The full senate report is accessible at http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=7db3fbd8-f1b4-4fdf-bd15-12b7df1a0b63

Mzq3w7 (talk) 00:54, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Declined. It's not a US Senate report, but a report by partisan Senator Inhofe. As shown above, there is no consensus to add it. It's certainly not a BLP-reliable source. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 05:44, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

That is a senate report from the United States Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works why would you say it is not? mark nutley (talk) 19:51, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Because it's not. Read it. Hipocrite (talk) 20:07, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

In more detail, Mark, because it's written by James Inhofe's staffers, and published by Inhofe in (an abuse of) his role as minority committee leader. He is not speaking for the Senate, and he is not speaking for the committee. A statement by a politician is not a reliable source in a BLP. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:16, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Please do not accuse an identifiable living person as abusing their position, it is a blp breach and i request you remove it. Now that document says In this report, Minority Staff of the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works examine key documents and emails from the University of East Anglia’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU). and most certainly looks like a senate committee document to me, have you actual proof that it is not? mark nutley (talk) 20:23, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

It's my opinion, it's reliably sourced to me, and Inhofe, as a public person and politician, must live with such opinions. As for the second part, your cue is "Minority Staff". If you do not understand the US political system enough to understand this, please inform yourself. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:43, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Your call on the BLP breach. "Minority staff" well al reports would be written up by the staff so i`m not fully understand what your getting at mark nutley (talk) 21:00, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Out of two words you manage to concentrate on the other one. US senate committees are stuffed roughly according to the distribution of senators in the Senate. Since the US is effectively a two-party system, there is the committee majority (which at the moment is the Democrats) and the committee minority (at the moment the Republicans). James Inhofe is the leader of the minority group, and the minority staffers work for him - not directly for the committee and not directly for the Senate. Statements made by the minority group are (at best) good for the minority. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:15, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

But the minority group politicians are elected to the senate right? As in, they work for the senate representing their constituents? And their staff write up the reports from the meetings? Is that right? mark nutley (talk) 22:25, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

These are not meeting reports. Hipocrite (talk) 22:56, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

It is a report, I just went here Thank you for visiting the United States Senate Environment and Public Works Committee website There is a link on that page which leads to this one The Minority Staff of the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works released a report today titled, "‘Consensus' Exposed: The CRU Controversy." There`s even a video there of the meeting mark nutley (talk) 23:29, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I miss your point. Sure Inhofe fires up the PR machine when he releases a report. Read your link. "The Minority Staff..." --Stephan Schulz (talk) 05:06, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

The point is you guys are saying this is not a minority meeting report, when it is. And as such is a reliable source for use in this article mark nutley (talk) 21:33, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

What? No, it's not a "minority meeting report". It's a report by the committee minority group, or rather by it's staffers. And no, a partisan political documents is not a reliable source for anything but the author's opinion - and, given that politicos are politicos, I have my doubts about that. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:42, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

The Morning Call stuff

It isn't at all clear to me why we're giving so much space to Mann's opinions in The Morning Call - he says plenty of things in far more prestigious locations - why pick this one? But if we are using it, why are we picking these out to quote? There is piles more stuff in there. For example, just quoting near there, we have:

"Among the major conclusions settled by climate science, Mann said, are:

That carbon dioxide levels are increasing rapidly in the atmosphere.

That humans are responsible for this rise in greenhouse-gas levels.

That global warming is shrinking the polar ice sheets and Ice Age glaciers.

That the last half of the 20th century was warmer than any 50-year period in the last 1,000 years.

Among the propositions that remain unsettled, according to Mann:

That without a reduction in man-made CO2 emissions, large sections of coastal cities will be under water by the end of this century. (This is unlikely, he said, but other low-lying areas are threatened now, and more warming risks inundating those cities in future centuries.)

That global warming is causing more frequent hurricanes. (This is uncertain.)

That 1998 was the warmest year of the last millennium. (But he believes it was.)

That current warmth of the planet is reducing the polar bear population.

The best measured polar bear population data suggest a reduction in population, Mann said. But there are conflicting measurements.ÃƒÂ‚Ã‚Â… What we can say is that the Arctic is warming up faster than most other areas of the planet. Global warming is eroding the broken sea ice environment in the Arctic that polar bears rely on for hunting."

So someone, for some unexplained reason, has made a subselection of these based on... what? William M. Connolley (talk) 21:24, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I have no idea - i objected to it above. None of this stuff has any biographical import. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 21:50, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree - it reeks of quote mining. Good call on removing it. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:53, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Request For Comment

There is an ongoing dispute as the whether The Hockey Stick Illusion a book about the work of Michael E. Mann should be included in the See Also section of this article. I think it is time for outside opinions on the matter so that it might be resolved. mark nutley (talk) 18:13, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Comments by involved users

reject In the context of this biography, the book simply isn't notable. It might be notable on the hockey stick controversy article though (in a public perception part) to which this links - but note that the comment by Judith Curry so flung around, states something that is overlooked, but rather important: The book has been widely (to the extent of completely) ignored by the scientific community. This is a biography of a scientist, and the hockey-stick controversy is a scientific one. WP:UNDUE here, and (unfortunately) i suspect promoted here as WP:POV. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:33, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Include – Without commenting on the irony in KDP’s appeal to keep non biographical information out of biographies and his unwillingness to do so in articles related to AGW skeptics, the material belongs in the hockey stick article, not here.However, a link to the book in the see also section is entirely appropriate. WVBluefield (talk) 18:51, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

There is an ongoing dispute as the whether The Hockey Stick Illusion, a book about the work of Michael E. Mann, Raymond S. Bradley and Malcolm K. Hughes, should be included in the See Also section of this article. Previous discussion started 3 days ago at #See also to HS book. Outside opinions are requested so that it might be resolved. Atmoz (talk) 19:03, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Include Mann is notable outside of academic circles for one reason only, the controversy around his work. The hockey stick illusion is a book about that controversy and as such rates being in the see also section here mark nutley (talk) 19:25, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Reject I don't know if I qualify as involved or uninvolved on this article but I'll play it safe and put my comments under the involved section. AFAIK, the concensus of the scientific community is that global warming is real and primarily the result of mankind. The book in question supports a minority (possibly fringe?) viewpoint. There is no reason to include this per WP:NPOV. If readers want to find information about minority POVs, there are plenty of other articles they can read. We're not here to cater to minority viewpoints. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:07, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
reject per others William M. Connolley (talk) 09:18, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Include. The Hockey Stick Illusion has received favorable notices in a number of respected publications and from respected commentators -- see here (above) for a list. The subject of the book is Prof. Mann (et al.)'s paleoclimate reconstructions, commonly known as the Hockey Stick graph. Our article already mentions the long-running controversy about this work. It seems obvious to me that, as a service to the reader, the book should be referenced in the article.

Opponents of referring to this book have explained their opposition with unsourced innuendo, including (direct quotes) "smear campaign," "fringe allegations about Mann," and "attack book." -- see "See also to HS book" above and page history for context. They have been asked to supply reliable sources for these criticisms; none have replied. To omit the book from our article would have the appearance of attempting to conceal serious criticisms of Prof. Mann's work. -Pete Tillman (talk) 18:15, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Reject per ChrisO and others. Note that the "respected contributors" listed aren't really. And with the exception of Gilder's self-published review, the "reviews" are very thin. Guettarda (talk) 00:51, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Not sure. (Adding my comment here because I've edited related articles in the past, although I came here through RfC page.) I would have thought it was notable and should be mentioned in the main body, not in See also. I'm always strongly opposed to warring over See also sections. They should never be used to slip in ideas that would be contested in the main body of the article where sourcing rules apply. I see below someone has said "it's fringe". Not a relevant argument in a biography (except for stuff that is so loopy it will never be mentioned in the mainstream media, of course). Itsmejudith (talk) 11:59, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually the fringe argument is extremely relevant. I used the example below of the "birther" conspiracy theories about Barack Obama's birth certificate. They are completely loopy, but they have received far more coverage in mainstream sources than this largely ignored book, which isn't even biographical in nature. But we do not add pro-birther books to the "see also" section of the Barack Obama article, precisely because they're fringe works, just like this one. -- ChrisO (talk) 13:58, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that it's a clear parallel, and I think the reason that I see notability as more important than fringe on this is an important point of principle, which probably needs to be aired in quite another forum, but I will try and state it concisely here. That is, that each article falls within a field of enquiry that has its own standards of scholarship. For biographies the gold standard is a scholarly biography that has become the "standard" biography on the subject. This is obviously impossible to apply in the case either of Mann or of Obama. Instead we use coverage in the mainstream media, as our sources, and also as our guide to what is notable, and what is due weight. The "birther" question is a notable issue in the case of Obama and deserves a brief mention. Similarly, the fact that Mann's "hockey stick" idea has aroused discussion around the edges of scientific academic, and in the mainstream press too, is notable. The "Illusion" book isn't RS for that; it should be regarded as primary, and sources such as Nature, the BBC or the New York Times should be used instead. Without looking back at the news coverage I'm not sure how much attention any of this merits, but I would have thought a brief mention worthwhile. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:27, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

While I appreciate your reasoning, I think the problem is really one of weight. The controversy itself is already linked from this articles, which to me seems appropriate as many people only know Mann because of it, which is itself regrettable, but not the responsibility of wikipedia. The problem lies with this book in particular, or any particular single source or book being given such weight as a direct link. ChrisO's analogy becomes relevant when it's viewed in that context; there are many books and articles that have been written about the hockey stick, just as there are many books and articles that have been written about particulars of Obama's career (like the Birther conspiracy theory), but linking any of them directly would be granting them excessive importance. siafu (talk) 15:41, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I think this is the only book (so far) specifically about the Hockey-stick graph controversy. Certainly it's the only such book that's made it to Wikipedia.

ChrisO's analogy, comparing Montford's book to "birther" conspiracy theories about Barack Obama, is, in my opinion, so far afield as to be offensive. Montford has written a serious book, that has received respectful treatment -- except from Mann's partisans, sfaict. Pete Tillman (talk) 18:04, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

You misrepresent the facts here. Montford, chemist turned accountant turned science writer, has written a fringe book that has been mostly ignored by the mainstream science establishment. Contrasted to the Obama Birther conspiracy, they receive a similar treatment in the public eye; one could just as easily say it has received a respectful treatment -- except from Obama's partisans, "sfaic". Both claims are, however, ridiculous; these are indeed fringe theories. The question still remains either way-- how is this relevant to Mann himself? If it isn't, there is no way to get past the problem of undue weight. siafu (talk) 18:48, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

If you're offended by the Birther analogy, consider the analogy of including a title like Dark Moon: Apollo and the Whistle-Blowers by Bill Kaysing in the See Also section for Neil Armstrong or Buzz Aldrin. Fortunately, this book doesn't have it's own article yet, but it stands at #137,328 in Amazon's best-seller list, compared to Montford's #90,695. Obviously the Moon landing hoax conspiracy theory is quite a bit more obvious as a piece of fringe nonsense and yet it's sales figures would indicate that it's being taken "seriously" by many -- all except NASA's partisans, namely, almost everybody. siafu (talk) 18:57, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think you'll find many respected commentators, such as Judith Curry and George Gilder, commenting favorably on either the "birther" conspiracy or the "moon landing never happened' business. So I don't think either analogy is good.

Would you please present evidence, other than your personal opinion(s), that Montford's book is "fringe". I hope you can see the logical fallacy in arguing that " 'everyone' has ignored the book, so it must be fringe, " which you & other editors have presented repeatedly. We are trying to be objective here.... Thanks, Pete Tillman (talk) 19:18, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Quite the contrary, it's you who are presenting a Catch-22 here. If there are lots of sources describing this book as "fringe", then that means there are lots of people paying attention to it, which in turns makes it less ignored and more well-known. If it is fringe then it is not going to have many commentators. Obviously you're not going to have commentators like Judith Curry talking about those other topics, since she's a climatologist, and you will, in fact, find quite a few commentators like Mr. Gilder (how you can call him a "respected commentator" is beyond me) taking up the cause of Birtherism since it's precisely the extreme right-wing that Gilder represents that is championing that particular ridiculous cause. siafu (talk) 19:32, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Reject – the book is promoting fringe claims about Mann's work, not presenting anything notable or reliable about his biography. . . dave souza, talk 23:31, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Dave, do you have any refs/cites that state that Montford's book is "fringe"? What I've seen suggests a serious piece of work, and Judith Curry shares this opinion. Thanks, Pete Tillman (talk) 05:27, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Since all the reviews seem to be by those promoting the "skeptic" side, there's no evidence that it has mainstream credence. Judith Curry's attempts to reach out to "skeptics" have been rather credulous, accepting their claim that pointing to plagiarism by Wegman was a "smear" then having to retract that, and she's in a tiny minority in her approach. Looking at the cited review by Mark Ridley, it appears that the book contains blatant falsehoods, such as the allegation that "Al Gore used it in his film (though describing it as something else and with the Y axis upside down)." The book evidently gives uncritical support to McIntyre's claims to have proved the "hockey stick" wrong, claims which are clearly fringe and are rejected by scientists.[7] . . dave souza, talk 10:10, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Apart from your wp:or have you any refs at all which say this book is fringe? mark nutley (talk) 16:40, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

The book has been ignored by the mainstream, Mark. [per Curry] --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:31, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

You keep saying that, do you think the reason it has been ignored by climatologists is because it hits to close to home? It uncovers some ugly truths? There can be two reason as to why it has been ignored by one side of the debate you know mark nutley (talk) 18:34, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

You just complained about OR - does it only cut one way? Hmmmm. Curry's statement is rather clear - the book has been ignored. Sorry. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:01, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

No Or intended just a point you seem to keep missing. Yes curry says it was ignored, does she say why? Does she say it is fringe? Or an attack? no she does not, she says it is an accurate telling of the controversy. Now we have no sources saying it is fringe, or an attack, or a polemic, or whatever else you guys want to call it. So apart from wp:IDONTLIKEIT no reasons are being given to have this in the see also mark nutley (talk) 19:08, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Mark, she is not saying it is "accurate". She is saying that it "provides the perspective of the skeptics", and she is giving no reasons for it being ignored - other than because people actually have no interest in reading it. She argues that people should read it and rebut it - which she argues (in her opinion) will be hard. But she is also stating that she isn't an authority on the issue. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:55, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

I beg to differ Kim, the critical arguments have not hitherto been assembled into a complete narrative mark nutley (talk) 21:12, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Context is the sceptical/blogosphere view - not the mainstream view. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 22:54, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Comments by uninvolved users

Reject. The obvious problem with inclusion is that the book is a fringe work by fringe commentators, making claims that have largely been ignored or have been rejected by mainstream commentators in the relevant field. It is comparable to including the pro-birther book The Obama Nation: Leftist Politics and the Cult of Personality or any one of a number of other fringe works in the "see also" section of Barack Obama. The bottom line, basically, is that fringe works are unsuitable for inclusion in BLPs in any capacity, whether as sources or "see also" links. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:20, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to jump on you chris, but do you actually have any sources which say this book is fringe? mark nutley (talk) 19:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

See siafu's comments below, which is basically what I would have written in response to you. A book by a fringe non-scientist promoting claims which have been overwhelmingly rejected is not a useful "see also" link, any more than a book by someone promoting claims about Barack Obama's birth certificate would be a suitable link in that article. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:01, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Reject for similar reasons as ChrisO; the onus is on Mr. nutley to demonstrate that this book is taken seriously or represents a credible viewpoint, not the other way round. As it is, I have to agree that the justification for inclusion is exceptionally weak. siafu (talk) 19:47, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Comment: editors ChrisO and siafu (above) refer to each others justifications -- ChrisO calls the book "fringe work by fringe commentators" etc.. Could either or both of you please supply sources for your criticisms? Thanks, Pete Tillman (talk) 18:23, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Calling something fringe is indicating a lack of notability or relevance; if it's true, there won't be any sources for it precisely because it's not notable or relevant. If it's not true, then there will be plenty of sources indicating that. As I said, the burden of proof is on those seeking inclusion here, not those opposing. siafu (talk) 18:25, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Comment Dr Judith Curry has had something to say about this book, and she certainly did not call it fringe "The well argued allegations in this book, which are serious, should be refuted by the mainstream climate community involved in this research and the IPCC if they are in fact incorrect. And if they are correct, there are serious problems with climate research and with the IPCC," and "the fact that NO ONE from the mainstream climate community is commenting on this (other than a few people over at Klimazweibel) is telling, in my opinion; much of what Montford has written will not be easily refuted." See comment 178

Looking over that source reveals some irony here, in that comment 178 you are referring to is a response to a challenge by someone pointing that no one is taking notice of this book (comment 175). Irony aside, these are just blog comments, not exactly high up on the reliable source scale anyway. Really, the controversy is already linked from this article (paragraph 4, in "Career and Awards"), and a link to this book from that article seems entirely appropriate, but what completely inappropriate here is a link from the page on Michael Mann (as opposed to a page about the "controversy"). How is it notable in this regard? It's not. siafu (talk) 19:54, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Please note that the link you mention to the Hockey stick controversy is somewhat obscured inside a pipelined link. May I take it you would support linking (forex, as a See also) directly to the article title, as a service to the general reader? TIA, Pete Tillman (talk) 00:30, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

There's nothing obscure about a pipelined link. siafu (talk) 00:36, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

And a further note, if there is anything "obscure", I think it is probably in the other direction here; the link you are referring to connects hockey stick straight to the article on the hockey stick controversy. The genuinely naive reader, that is, one who would be confused by an "obscure" piped link, would likely assume that hockey stick would link to an article describing the hockey stick itself and what it represents, say global warming. From my point of view, this already seems like an unnecessary cession to the opposing point of view to Mann's work. siafu (talk) 00:43, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, and I might add that Curry's comments are themselves a fringe opinion - Montford does no more than repeat claims that have already been addressed by others. What he has written has already been refuted. For instance, he regurgitates the allegations about the CRU emails that have been conclusively disproved by the various inquiries into that affair. The lack of responses to the book indicate three things - that Montford is not a significant voice (he has a very low profile in reliable sources), that he has said little or nothing that is new or interesting, and that nobody has felt it worthwhile to waste time criticising the book in detail. A book by a fringe writer that has largely been ignored is barely notable in its own right, and is certainly not significant enough to warrant a link from a biographical article, particularly as it's not even a biographical publication. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:08, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Have you read the book yourself, Chris? If not, could you please supply a RS for your assertions? Thanks, Pete Tillman (talk) 00:21, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

You are reversing the burden here. Even Curry says the book is being ignored. If it is being ignored, then it doesn't have WP:WEIGHT. We are not here to promote a book. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 00:24, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

[outdent] I don't think so, Kim. "My"side has presented multiple sources that praise the book and consider it significant. "Your" side has presented -- well, personal opinions, so far. Have you something else? Thanks, Pete Tillman (talk) 00:34, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

You'll have to forgive me for being obtuse, but I've only noticed one source being presented (Curry), and it doesn't seem to support the thesis that this an important work at all or that it is directly relevant to Mr. Mann. siafu (talk) 00:48, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

What you have presented are activist/fringe/advocacy sources - the only one that could reasonably be stated to be relevant to science is Curry - and Curry states that the book has been ignored. Take a look at the article talk page for the book - one of the very problematic issues there is exactly the lack of independent reviews. You are advocating that because it has been ignored - it hasn't got bad reviews - thus it must be a valid/good source. Hmmmm. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 00:45, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Include : Notability only applies to the article itself, not the content found therein (see WP:NOTE), so arguments citing notability of the book within this article are irrelevant to determining whether to include a content item on this page. That having been said, the book itself has been judged notable enough to have an article of its own AND the topic of the book discusses one of the most notable aspects of the subject of this BLP. As such, readers of this biography should be properly directed to other articles related to that notable topic (i.e. the Hockey Stick Controversy and books about it). --174.34.174.4 (talk) 04:19, 24 June 2010 (UTC) Note - this !vote came from an open proxy, and is invalid. Hipocrite (talk) 10:34, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Within an article notable is referring to its weight, which is an integral part of the neutral point of view policy, and about as far from irrelevant as you can get :). The Hockey stick controversy is linked within the text. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 05:08, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Reject. Ignored in the field, due to fringe content; irrelevant to Mann's biog per ChrisO's Obama analogy. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 11:04, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
Include. Though I do not agree with everything the book's author says, it is is not fringe just inconvenient to the mainstream view (I have actually read the book by the way). As usual, strict+ interpretation of the rules is being applied when dealing with GW (the normal Wikipedia bias on the subject).-Mariordo (talk) 00:47, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Include Of course. Why would you not include a controversial book written by the subject of the article?Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:26, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

That's not the case here - the book was not written by the subject. Hipocrite (talk) 21:19, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes you are quite right.Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:01, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Include The book is notable and directly discusses the only thing that Mann is notable for himself (IMHO). If it weren't for this hockey stick thing no one outside of a small group of close friends and colleagues would have the slightest idea who Michael Mann is, or care for that matter. --Rush's Algore (talk) 23:03, 28 June 2010 (UTC) (banned; probable sock William M. Connolley (talk) 17:25, 4 July 2010 (UTC))

Comment: Per User talk:TheNeutralityDoctor#Blocked, which redirects from Rushs Algore, "Your username is the only reason for this block. You are welcome to choose a new username." ???, Pete Tillman (talk) 20:11, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Evidence of notability in specific relation to Mann's bio? . . . dave souza, talk 23:28, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Include For reasons given by Rush's Algore. Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:01, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
Oppose The purpose of "See also" is to provide further information, not misinformation. TFD (talk) 19:10, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Might i ask were the misinformation is? mark nutley (talk) 19:19, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

It is a polemical work written by a layman published outside the academic press and pushing fringe science. However the onus is on you to show that the opinions of this book have gained any support within to scientific community to at least raise it to level of a respectable minority view. Could you please point me to a review in a scientific journal that commends it? TFD (talk) 22:06, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Please provide the ref which says it is a polemic. I would recommend you actually look at the publisher before you say it is published outside of the academic press [8] I think you will find they publish a lot of academic stuff. And are you saying Mann`s work is fringe? as that is what the book is about mark nutley (talk) 22:11, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

You asked for relevant scientific opinion of Muntford's book. Here is one that woud seem to kill the "fringe" argument, from Judith Curry:

"I recommend that you read the “Hockey Stick Illusion” by Andrew Montford. ... The book is well documented, it obviously has a certain spin to it, but it is a very good book." (About 10 paras into the interview)

"So I am laying down the gauntlet, this [Muntford's book] really needs to discussed and rebutted by the paleo researchers and the IPCC defenders." [9].

Whatever your personal opinion of Prof. Curry, she is a respected climatologist. Her opinion of Muntford's book is worth more than mine or yours, I submit. Pete Tillman (talk) 22:47, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Her view is that this is a narrative presented from McIntyre's perspective (and with a certain spin). And you forgot to mention what she also says:

"It is being ignored by the climate establishment, see for example Gavin Schmidt’s comment at RC when i mentioned this book on the Comments on the Second CRU Inquiry Reports thread. Has ANYONE supporting the IPCC and the consensus view read this?"

And that is what has been said everywhere - it is a book that is being ignored by the mainstream. Obviously Curry thinks its interesting - but that is her personal view - which has extremely little weight. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:00, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

I was referring to the author of The hockey stick illusion as fringe, which I thought was apparent. While the book was published by a respectable publisher they are not an academic publisher and therefore the science in the book has not been peer-reviewed, the writer, although he has a bachelor's degree is not a scientist and the theories are fringe. While Curry is a respected climatologist, she has not presented her views to peer review either. When she does, we will be able to see the degree of acceptance her views have received. If you disagree with the Wikipedia policy of neutrality, and believe that fringe views should have equal or greater weight that the consensus of the scientific community then you should work to change the policy. TFD (talk) 23:10, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

TFD, books are ~~never (sfaik)~~ sometimes peer-reviewed, even academic books by respected scientists. And peer-reviewd book reviews are even rarer. I suggest your concerns are overblown. Pete Tillman (talk) 23:38, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

You should check again, academic books are peer-reviewed. (See for instance the debate on the sceptical environmentalist, where this was an issue... Some claimed that it wasn't (which it was)). And Curry's statement isn't a book-review, nor is it published in a reliable source [and she isn't an expert on this topic] --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 00:00, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

You can follow the links to peer review and academic publishing for explanation. TFD (talk) 03:36, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

"Sometimes" seems accurate: "Some university presses undertake peer review of books" -- Peer_review#Procedure (etc.). And peer review has problems of its own, partic. in climate science. But we are getting rather far afield. Pete Tillman (talk) 18:21, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Reject. That's not what "see also" sections are for. They should be neutral, relevant and notable in the context of the article on which they appear. The HSI is an irrelevant, biased hit piece which is not taken seriously by the scientific community. StuartH (talk) 14:53, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Include. Disliking this book or disagreeing with it doesn't justify your decision to pretend that it doesn't exist. It should be listed in the See Also section but probably doesn't deserve a mention anywhere else. Users can follow the links to that article and the stuff about how it was received should be written on that page.Owen214 (talk) 02:25, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Reject. I support efforts to slow down climate change alarmism where it exists, but this book is not relevant enough to be linked here. It would fit on a page about Climategate or the Hockey Stick controversy but not here.Ocaasi (talk) 05:13, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Include (I haven't edited this article, but I am active in this topic area and have advocated using this book elsewhere). This book has been used as a source in an academic paper published by the University of Oxford [10]. So this book is definitely reliable. That being said, I don't agree with using it to add anything other than general biographical information to this article. Most, if not all, information on Mann's involvement in the Hockey stick controversy, especially criticism, should be left in that article, not this one. A single sentence saying something like, "Mann and his team's research which produced the hockey stick is controversial" is all it should amount to. Listing this book in the "See also" section in this article is ok. Cla68 (talk) 01:13, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Yep, used in total to source a 39 word sentence in the introduction to a 42 page report. Really impressive. There are extremely more reliable sources to source that single sentence from. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:36, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, a paper published by the University of Oxford and written by a team of 14 academics or experts on the subject matter, four of which have BLP articles in Wikipedia, uses this book as a source. I personally don't see how there could be any more question on if this book meets our RS guideline. Cla68 (talk) 01:40, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

They are not using it as a source - they are pointing out that it exists. (which is impressive since the emails hadn't been out for that long). In hindsight, we can also determine that the speculative sentence that it is a footnote to .... Has been shown to be wrong, by the inquiry reports. [do note by the way that there isn't a single expert on paleo amongst the authors] --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:49, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Not true, and the it doesn't matter that there aren't any paleoscientists (a very select discipline) among the 14 academics who wrote that paper. What matters is that it shows that the book is considered reliable in the academic community. If it wasn't, they wouldn't have used it to source their assertion in the paper. I invite anyone who reads this to click on the link and read the paper and the footnote (#3) for themselves. Cla68 (talk) 01:52, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes True. They point out that there are allegations - which we by now know are wrong. Remember that the paper was written before the inquiry reports came out. They even tell us that the veracity of the book isn't confirmed "Hitherto, none of the specific critiques of this work by those auditing it have been adjudicated by reviews of the matter" - by now "hitherto" has passed, and the critiques have been addressed - and shown to be wrong. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:57, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

That's not the question here. The question is whether this book is reliable. It was used a source in an academic paper. They don't say, "the veracity of this book hasn't been confirmed" or anything like that. They use it to source an assertion they make in the article's text. Oh, by the way, one of the paper's authors, Mike Hulme, is a climate scientist at the University of East Anglia. This book is not only reliable, it's recommended reading by one of East Anglia's climate change professors. Cla68 (talk) 02:01, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Unreliable sources are used regularly in papers - that doesn't make them reliable. You can find lots of papers that reference Inhofe's 400 for example - but that list is still unreliable. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 02:04, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

But that isn't how our guidelines are written, which is what we go by. So sorry, I disagree with you. Cla68 (talk) 02:06, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Sure it is how our guidelines are written. Being cited in an academic paper doesn't make the source that is being cited reliable. Sorry. That seems to be an invention. Do please point me to where our policies say something like that. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 02:08, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Kim, you appear to have a strong personal opinion on the book, as do I, so I don't think we're going to be able to win each other to the other's side. By the way, for the benefit of other readers here, this book has been used as a source in two academic papers [11]. Cla68 (talk) 00:30, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Include I personally believe that when we are talking about Academia or Scientists in the scientific community they should be held to higher standards than other BLP articles, with the inclusion of RS counterpoint(s) as long as proper weight is given. Especially when taxpayer's money and lawmakers policies are based on the finding of said research. Calling a scientific minority viewpoint "fringe" is completely ridiculous, its like going back in time to the "Flat Earth consensus" and arguing with the Church in the dark ages. In Science the argument/debate is never over. The fabric of our universe is always being revealed (with or without Peer-reviewed journals). However the dogma of the Anthropomorphic Global Warming community would almost have you believe Mosses himself came down from Mount Sinai with their research findings. If nothing else Climategate revealed how that dirty tricks, censorship, and agenda-driven-researcher biased-science is used to influence Global Policy.--Ducha mps_comb MFA 15:06, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Rv: why

~~It was silly~~. There, happy now? William M. Connolley (talk) 20:50, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I can only assume you are talking to me. I have no doubt that he has some number of peer-reviewed journal articles, but is it not WP:OR or WP:SYNTH to not have a source that has discussed Mann's total number? I know this is nit picky but what is to stop someone from adding a "0" ans say 800? --Ducha mps_comb MFA 21:07, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

It is better to try discussing this stuff on the talk page first rather than tagging the article. I think that saying "has more than X" is commonplace for highly-productive scientists. But in fact I think I at least in part agree with you: "more than 80" is pointless; no-one really cares how many. I've replaced it with "numerous" which is vague. I also removed the refimprove which has been there for ages for little reason William M. Connolley (talk) 21:17, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

The exact figure is 94: 39 as sole author, 55 as co-author. This figure is given in the PSU Final Investigation Report on page 18. I've added it to the article. I recommend mining the report for biographical info; it's full of useful bits like that. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:53, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I added that ref into the heading, then found it was already in the career section, so I reverted back to the last version by WMC. I know most people on here can do basic math (on their fingers) but to add "Over 90" is WP:SYNTH. I know this may seem like I 'm being a WP:LAWYER, but that is the way I understand it. If their is a RS that states "Over 90" then go with it, but I don't think we should add that as No one has ever stated that. I also think the direct quote "Mann is the lead author of 39 scientific publications and co-author on an additional 55 publications" should be used in the Career section or in the lead, you guys decide. --Ducha mps_comb MFA 18:12, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

That's not WP:SYN - sourcing is not required for trivial calculations (39+55 = over 90). I specifically avoided giving the exact number because it will be outdated very quickly. Are you volunteering to constantly monitor Mann's output and keep those figures up to date? If not, then we need to go back to a form of words that will not be outdated within weeks or months. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:20, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

You might want to take a look at WP:CALC as well, which is a subsection of WP:OR. NW (Talk) 18:48, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I knew that was in policy somewhere but I couldn't remember where! -- ChrisO (talk) 18:59, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

thumbs up.
I wonder how Mann's civil investigation from the State attorney will turn out?[12]--Ducha mps_comb MFA 21:31, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Rather little i suspect[13]. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 21:46, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Criticism of the PSU Inquiry

We don't have any at present, and of course any we add must meet WP:BLP standards.

Here's a start:

In an essay on the various Climategate inquiries, senior editor Clive Crook at The Atlantic wrote that

The Penn State inquiry exonerating Michael Mann ... would be difficult to parody. Three of four allegations are dismissed out of hand at the outset: the inquiry announces that, for "lack of credible evidence", it will not even investigate them. (At this, MIT's Richard Lindzen tells the committee, "It's thoroughly amazing. I mean these issues are explicitly stated in the emails. I'm wondering what's going on?" ) ... Moving on, the report then says, in effect, that Mann is a distinguished scholar, a successful raiser of research funding, a man admired by his peers -- so any allegation of academic impropriety must be false. ... In short, the case for the prosecution is never heard. Mann is asked if the allegations (well, one of them) are true, and says no. His record is swooned over. Verdict: case dismissed, with apologies that Mann has been put to such trouble.

Source: Climategate and the Big Green Lie by Clive Crook, The Atlantic, Jul 14 2010.

Note that Crook explicitly states that he is NOT a CC skeptic, and writes that "I think climate science points to a risk that the world needs to take seriously." --Pete Tillman (talk) 23:17, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I think you can add that source to the footnote, because it gives good information on the Penn State inquiry, but I wouldn't add any new text as of yet. Cla68 (talk) 23:32, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

It's an editorial. It's also fairly uninformed. And oh, I was an evolutionist, too! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:33, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

More critics: Fox News quotes Steven Milloy of Junk Science: "It was set up to be a total whitewash and the panel made no effort to investigate," Milloy said. "They didn't even interview the recipients of the e-mails. It is ridiculous." [14]

A spokesman for Pennsylvania's Commonwealth Foundation for Public Policy Alternatives said it was a "conflict of interest" for Penn State to investigate itself. [15]). An op-ed columnist at the State College, PA Centre Daily wrote, "The conflict of interest is so apparent that one wonders why the university even bothered to produce this report on its own." [16]

I'm aware that we need balancing opinions from those who liked the PSU inquiry, but the RS ones I've seen are pretty anodyne, such as this one from the NY Times: "Pennsylvania State University has found no evidence of research misconduct on the part of Michael Mann." [17], etc. Perhaps we'll just have to use those. Help? TIA, Pete Tillman (talk) 02:09, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Why would you consider Milloy a reliable source? And don't say "because Fox news quoted him", because Fox also picked up on Breitbart's nonsense. Guettarda (talk) 02:33, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

This is all a bit silly. Tillman, what has gone wrong with you? William M. Connolley (talk) 08:11, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

WMC, please tell me what's "silly" about quoting critics who call the PSU inquiry "difficult to parody", "a total whitewash", and an obvious "conflict of interest." For that matter, I'm still waiting for a physical explanation for Mannian teleconnections [18] via tree-ring widths.

As for Milloy, his CV would seem to indicate a certain gravitas. Perhaps you could spell out your objections: as always, a source is always reliable as to his own opinions.... Best, Pete Tillman (talk) 16:03, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Quoting Milloy on Mann? Milloy is a paid-for lobbyist. His opinion has no objective value at all. As for the explanation: well I'm still waiting for your explanation of qi. But this isn't a newsgroup: please use my talk page if you have specific questions for me, or perhaps the science reference desk if there is a scientific matter you don't understand William M. Connolley (talk) 16:17, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

WMC, I could give you an explanation of Qi, I am an expert on the subject. What do you want to know, where can I post my answer to you on the subject.--Ducha mps_comb MFA 07:21, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Qi? Two-letter word, worth a lot of points in Scrabble. You could look it up ;-] Pete Tillman (talk) 19:06, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Qi – see the The Book of General Ignorance And in hot news... but perhaps this is getting offtopic. Why the rush to include non-notable opinions attacking someone's work in a BLP? Surely a reliable third party source is required to show significance.... dave souza, talk 20:06, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Reliable for his own opinion? Sure. But then you'd have to come up with some reason why Milloy's opinion is notable. Guettarda (talk) 18:15, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Um, because it was reported by a RS? In any case, it's just a supporting opinion for PSU's COI, easily replaced if the consensus requires. Pete Tillman (talk) 19:06, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

News at 10, lobbyist ignorant about climate science attacks scientist. Scholarly third party source assessing significance? . . dave souza, talk 20:06, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Really? And what RS was that? (I assume you're not talking about Fox - that was addressed already, and you raised no objections.) Guettarda (talk) 20:12, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Anyway, the Atlantic piece, as I said before, I think can be added as a source to the passage about Mann's run-in with his school's administration over the ethics charges. Otherwise, I don't have any suggestion for adding any more text to this article. Cla68 (talk) 07:38, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I have found one non-editorial article which includes critical reaction to the investigation: [19]. I suggest adding the following lines covering reaction pro and con:

The outcome of the investigation was welcomed by the Union of Concerned Scientists and the Project on Climate Science, who welcomed it as a "return to common sense" in the face of "a manufactured distraction".^[7] It was, however, criticized by the free-market Institute of Public Affairs who asserted that it had not been an independent review and that the university was "highly unlikely" to be critical of one of its most high-profile academics.^[8]

Any thoughts? -- ChrisO (talk) 07:53, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

^ "Hackers leak climate change e-mails from key research unit, stoke debate on global warming". Associated Press. 2009-11-21. Retrieved 2009-11-24. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
^ "Climategate: Phil Jones accused of making error of judgment by colleague", news report by Chris Irvine, the Daily Telegraph, published 03 Dec 2009.
^ Mann, Michael (2009-12-19). "E-mail furor doesn't alter evidence for climate change". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2009-12-18. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
^ http://www.research.psu.edu/orp/Findings_Mann_Inquiry.pdf
^ "University Reviewing Recent Reports on Climate Information" (PDF). Pennsylvania State University. 2009-11-28.
^ Flam, Faye (2010-01-03). "Penn State climatologist cleared of misconduct". Philadelphia Inquirer. Retrieved 2010-01-04.
^ "Second University Review Clears Climate Scientist". The Associated Press. July 2, 2010.
^ {{cite news|last=Donovan|first=Samantha|title='Climategate' scientist cleared by US university|url=http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/07/02/2943806.htm?section=world%7Cdate=July 2, 2010|publisher=ABC News

[AP_2009-11-21-1] "Hackers leak climate change e-mails from key research unit, stoke debate on global warming". Associated Press. 2009-11-21. Retrieved 2009-11-24. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

[2] "Climategate: Phil Jones accused of making error of judgment by colleague", news report by Chris Irvine, the Daily Telegraph, published 03 Dec 2009.

[Mann_2009-12-19-3] Mann, Michael (2009-12-19). "E-mail furor doesn't alter evidence for climate change". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2009-12-18. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

[4] ttp://www.research.psu.edu/orp/Findings_Mann_Inquiry.pdf

[5] "University Reviewing Recent Reports on Climate Information" (PDF). Pennsylvania State University. 2009-11-28.

[6] Flam, Faye (2010-01-03). "Penn State climatologist cleared of misconduct". Philadelphia Inquirer. Retrieved 2010-01-04.

[7] "Second University Review Clears Climate Scientist". The Associated Press. July 2, 2010.

[8] {{cite news|last=Donovan|first=Samantha|title='Climategate' scientist cleared by US university|url=http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/07/02/2943806.htm?section=world%7Cdate=July 2, 2010|publisher=ABC News

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