Talk:Michigan J. Frog/Archives/2013

Michigan J. Frog and blackface; Al Jolson

I tend to beleive that the style of performance used by the animators of said frog is that of a minstrel in the Al Jolson tradition, but i could be wrong. Could you point me in the direction of somewhere that would elaborate on the differences and how Michigan falls into the Vaudevillian cat instead? Thanks for your help. Youngamerican 16:47, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, first of all, until someone finds a source citation to back up a claim one way or the other, all of our discussion will be speculation and thus not fair game for inclusion in Wikipedia.

That said, the current article (which lacks sources) says that Al Jolson was the inspiration for Michigan J. Frog. Well, Jolson was primarily a vaudeville and film performer. Furthermore, Michigan sings ragtime hits (again, according to our unsourced article); ragtime, while contemporary with part of minstrelsy, is not closely associated with it according to my research. Finally, minstrelsy was pretty much dead except in isolated places by the time these cartoons were made. Aspects of it survived in blackface vaudeville and film acts, but those are not minstrel shows proper.

To conclude, I think that Category:Blackface minstrelsy should be removed from this article; it's really not intended to be placed on every article about something tangentially related to blackface. And if any article should get a "See also" pointing to this article, it should probably be ragtime and not blackface or minstrel show. That's all, again, assuming someone can point to a reference that connects Michigan with Jolson and/or ragtime. — BrianSmithson 17:01, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Youngamerican 17:06, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I should add that I hate to come off as a WP:CITE pedant, but my work on minstrel show, Dixie (song), and other artcicles has kind of turned me into one. :) — BrianSmithson 17:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I just emailed the professor of African-American history at the university I attended to see if he could point me in the direction of any academic publications that took a stance one way or the other. Even if they dont deal with anything we are discussing, who know, maybe they will have something useful for the 'pedia. I will, of course, only add anything about Mr. Frog and minstrelsy if I can back it up with something muy credible. Thank you for the constructive converstion. Youngamerican 17:23, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I've got That's Enough Folks on its way via Amazon. It's about characterizations of African Americans in cartoons. I ordered it before this conversation, but it might have some pertinent information. Should arrive any day now. — BrianSmithson 17:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

"Michigan" Frog's voice and dancing are of the early 20th century Vaudeville variety, but are not blakeface minstel show nor Al Jolson (and I think it inappropriate that the article the article claims he sings "in the style of Al Jolson"; that's what I came to the talk page to comment on). Jolson was a very recognized (and much imitated) figure. The exagerated body language and facial expressions of the old Blackface Minstrel shows are quite distinctive. Warner Bros cartoonists referenced or parodied both in other cartoons. If they wished to make such a clear reference here they were certainly capable of doing so, but they did not. -- Infrogmation 02:34, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Note: My comment above is in reference to One Froggy Evening. I am not aware of all the more recent appearances of Michigan that may well reference Jolson &/or minstrel shows, but since such doesn't appear in the character's most famous film nor the first 30 some years of the chararacter's history, I think it misleading to claim Jolson style in the opening description. -- Infrogmation 02:59, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

He is singing Hello! Ma Baby! one of the biggest blackface songs ever. It is a subtle parody, pointing towards the racism of Chuck Jones Thund3rl1p5 18:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The Jazz Singer, 1927

Shhh... We're still pretending this whole blackface thing never happened. Ignore Dave Chappelle's TV show reference, and ignore everything you know. *eyeroll* --76.105.145.143 (talk) 11:12, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I've always heard he was based on Bert Williams. 172.242.29.135 (talk) 13:40, 25 May 2013 (UTC)