Talk:Milovan Djilas

Views on Montenegrin nationhood

This part is very rough. Needs to be contextualized. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ted71 (talk • contribs) 06:52, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Date of birth

Googling "Milovan Djilas June 1911" brings up many hits for 12 June 1911, and none for 4 June. But I believe Montenegro was still using the Julian calendar back then, so do we know whether the date is Gregorian or Julian? -- JackofOz (talk) 03:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Twelve years on, I notice that the Croatian and Serbo-Croatian pages both say 4 June, not 12 June. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:10, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Milovan Đilas (or Djilas)

Given that this is the English wikipedia, primarily for English-speakers, the fundamental problem with using the former spelling (while perhaps more accurate)is that the majority of readers will not know how it is pronounced, because Đ does not exist in the English alphabet. The purpose of spelling it DJ in English is so that English-speakers know how to pronounce it. And FWIW, the article quoted when it was moved back, is now again named Novak Djokovic. Cripipper (talk) 13:15, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

As per the resolution of Djokovic, the letter 'Đ' does not exist in the english alphabet, and this is the english wikipedia. Cripipper (talk) 15:52, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

English Wikipedia uses English spelling. I changed it to Djilas. The article should also be moved back to Milovan Djilas as happened with Novak Djokovic. 69.86.6.150 (talk) 18:41, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Not necessarily, the article Pavle Đurišić is at that title, and has been FA for three years. I have reverted your edit. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:33, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Well, I like to believe the orthography should be kept the closest is possible to the original hence welcome the use of diacritics. Said that, I have two English books written by Djilas (one very old) and they both do not use the diacritics. And a research with Google books finds with/without diacritics the following results:

With diacritics [[1]] : 9,570 hits

Without diacritics [[2]] : 76,300 hits

I do not oppose the current orthography (because I like it), but if we stick to the guidelines we should favor Djilas. Silvio1973 (talk) 18:36, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

There is no argument. Djilas is the most common spelling. We should use the most commonly accepted spelling. 69.86.6.150 (talk) 18:54, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

We need to check more in detail. It's a not a decision to be taken on the basis of a mere google search. Silvio1973 (talk) 22:11, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

The MOS policy is to use the established English name (i.e. Djokovic) WP:Manual of Style/Proper names § Diacritics- the article on the Spanish region of Aragón is titled Aragon, without the accent, as this is the established English name. 69.86.6.150 (talk) 22:42, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

The MOS says "Wikipedia normally retains these special characters, except where there is a well-established English spelling that replaces them with English standard letters". So the question is, is "Milovan Djilas" a well-established English spelling for Milovan Đilas? Given that he is well-published in English under the name Milovan Djilas, I tend to think there is, and I withdraw my previous opposition to the move on that basis. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:11, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

OK, so consensus seems to be Djilas and move the page to Djilas 69.86.6.150 (talk) 21:08, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

The article was properly retitled in this edit following this discussion. Later, the page was incorrectly moved back, in this undiscussed unilateral change. There is no question which spelling is used more in English books: Djilas is far more common in English (and this understates the difference, due to numerous English sources which use Djilas throughout the book and provide Đilas once as the original spelling). Scholar shows a 7 to one ratio, but that greatly understates the difference as the latter results are almost all non-English. Restoring the correct page title per WP:AT, WP:COMMONNAME, and the original discussion. Mathglot (talk) 13:06, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Dragan Djilas

Dragan Djilas is the mayor of Belgrade and listed as a fan of Djilas on Facebook. Any relation? son, grandson? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.16.196.194 (talk) 06:41, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

He is definitely not his grandson. Perhaps distant relative, but grandson not. -- Bojan  Talk  10:07, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Dragan Đilas' ancestry is from Bosnia. His parnts are Bosnian Serbs. --Dalibor Đurić (talk) 02:52, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

missing references; missing facts

Quote: It was only in March of next year that he went back again to Montenegro, where in the meantime a civil war between Partisans and Chetniks had broken out. Momčilo Cemović, who has dealt mostly with this period of Đilas' war activities, believed that the CPY Central Committee and the Supreme Staff had sent Đilas to ascertain the actual state of affairs and to dismiss the communist leaders responsible. This, in fact, he did. End quote.

I rank this article as a stub: a simple Google search returns far more relevant information that do the 8 references in this article. The critical facts of the period about 1944 are simply missing - those facts made Đilas a controversial individual for many of us in the 70's and 80's and are easily documented from scholarly, academic and other journal articles of that period. Those facts were routinely ignored and should not pass without mention in an article on such a controversial figure, regardless of his intellect or literary output. Topic: the fate of non-Communist partisans. G. Robert Shiplett 14:09, 24 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grshiplett (talk • contribs)

Momčilo Cemović

A reader of this article might assume, given no reference, that Momčilo Cemović was an historian writing on the topic of Milovan Đilas and the partisans.

Compare the effort to present an balanced view of Slobodan Milošević in that wp article - an article in which Milovan Đilas is himself cited by name and with a reference.

A stub on Momčilo Cemović exists at this time in wp but is not linked in this article. G. Robert Shiplett 14:17, 24 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grshiplett (talk • contribs)

Djilas on Albanians

@Fa alk:@Amanuensis Balkanicus: I have the actual book by Djilas, Conversations with Stalin, where that quote is found. The context is very different though. He is describing a conversation he had with Stalin, where Stalin asks him whether the Albanians could be integrated in Yugoslavia as a whole (with the inclusion of Albania as a republic that is), to which Djilas replies that they're not Slavs and Stalin says something to the effect of "really? I thought they might be somehow related because of the Slavic toponyms in Albania" to which Djilas replies with the phrase that Fa alk used. I could give you the full quote here and you can decide for yourselves what to do with it. The way it could be included has to have proper framework though in the sense that it is part of Djilas's views about the national question in Leninist politics and the Balkan Federation in particular.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:28, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Sure! :) --Fa alk (talk) 06:55, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

I know about the quote and I have read the book. It is really not that relevant, per WP:Neutral point of view#Due and undue weight + Wikipedia:Identifying and using primary sources. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 12:35, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Leftist errors

Let say, period of leftist errors begun in December 1941 after Soviet counteroffensive and German defeat in battle of Moscow and emergence of first Chetnik organisation of Đorđije Lašić also in December. Prior to that there weren't any Chetnik units, so partisans couldn't hunt them. Period of leftist deviation is most intensive in December/January, after partisan failed attack on Pljevlja. So, Đilas, being absent from Montenegro already in November, couldn't be called in Užice because of his errors. So called source is book The Croat Question: Partisan Politics in the Formation of the Yugoslav Socialist State where Đilas and Montenegro probably are just a side footnote. So I will delete it. -- Bojan  Talk  06:17, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

The cause why Đilas was called in Užice was failure of uprising in Montenegro. The uprising had popular support and was bigger than Tito anticipated. That inevitably forced Italians to unleash their full force on partisans and retake most of lost territory. -- Bojan  Talk  06:24, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Incorrect. The period of Leftist errors occured much earlier. Read cited assertions at the corresponding article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:20, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

No, there weren't any chetniks/counterrevolutionary group in summer/early autumn of 1941. Just Italians and partisans as organised military groups and Montenegrin separatist as organised political group. Leftist deviation will came after Djilas departure (late October/early November). -- Bojan  Talk  20:27, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Your arguments are irrational. The chetniks/counterrevolutionary group in summer/early autumn of 1941 were counterrevolutionary precisely because of the earlier communist revolutionary groups.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:59, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

No, chetniks were both anticommunist and thought the uprising begun to soon. And then they begun to collaborate with Italians. But there was not any in the summer/early autumn of 1941. Or disprove me by listing of chronology of events... - Bojan  Talk  18:29, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Only when Djilas left for Serbia leftist deviation truly begun -- Bojan  Talk  18:32, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm waiting... -- Bojan  Talk  14:04, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

I think I gave a fairly clear explanation how you yourself refuted your position here, and I don't really have much to add to that now. You are of course free to disagree, but I don't think you should expect everybody to be now somehow obliged to keep discussing this with you for as long as you are dissatisfied with it.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:18, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

You had to explain how his departure did not stop leftist errors, if he was sacked due to them. Give me an example of people killed from July until October, who were not Montenegrin separatists or Zbor members/sympathizers . -- Bojan  Talk  19:23, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Read this, this, and this. All of which implicate Đilas in "leftist errors" in Montenegro. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:38, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

• This#1 I doesn't have preview, this #2 and this #3 doesn't give much info - leftist deviation lasted from December 1941 until early 1942, Đilas was absent from Montenegro from October/November 1941 (he traveled with Zaharije Ostojić and Bill Hudson, I think). Left deviations mean preemptive liquidation of those who were suspected that will join Chetniks - there weren't Chetnik units in Montenegro until December. Partisans were fighting openly against Montenegrin separatists since 13 July, that couldn't induce anger among civilian population, so they will flock to Đorđije Lašić, Blažo Đukanović and Pavle Đurišić and cause crisis in partisan movement in Montenegro. -- Bojan  Talk  03:52, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Yep, I was right, Hudson and Ostojić departed for Serbia around 13 October, accompanied by Jovanović, Đilas and another senior Partisan, Mitar Bakić. So, Đilas wasn't in Montenegro in latter half of October. @Peacemaker67: Explain this. -- Bojan  Talk  03:55, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Đilas was sent back to Montenegro in the first week in July 1941 and was there until he left with the SOE team in mid-October. But we go with what the sources say. Haug (#1), who you cannot preview, says, in the context of a section titled "Period of Leftist Errors", the following: "Despite instructions to play down the revolutionary aspects of their policies, the two leading Montenegrin members of the Politburo, Đilas and [Ivan] Milutinović (both among the most radical leftists in the Party leadership) introduced what was referred to as "soviet elements" during the uprising in Montenegro in the summer of 1941." (my emphasis). So basically, they implemented "leftist errors" during the uprising. That is very clear. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:08, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Shepherd (#2) says: "The Communist leadership in Montenegro, including one of Tito's closest associates, Milovan Djilas, tried immediately to implement full-scale revolution and the accompanying Red Terror against suspected "kulaks" and other class enemies." (my emphasis). Again, it says he did so immediately (ie when the uprising started). Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:12, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Banac (#3) says: "The principal exponents of the Left Errors (Milovan Djilas and Ivan Milutinović in Montenegro and Boris Kidrič in Slovenia) were not punished, but local leaders were...". Again, clearly placing responsibility for leftist errors in Montenegro on Đilas's shoulders. This could only have occurred while he was in Montenegro (ie during the uprising). Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:23, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

First, on your and Antidiskriminator's sources: You use source that only cursory deals with Montenegro in 1941. Therefore, we have source from book on C R O A T I A that backs claim that Tito fired him in November. We concluded that Đilas left Montenegro in middle of October with Hudson and Ostojić.  Bojan  Talk --13:30, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

In order to prove that Đilas is indeed responsible for leftist errors (it means red terror), your sources must prove that a) liquidations happened in period from mid July-mid October b) and liquidated were not Montenegrin separatists, or ZBOR sympathizers. Otherwise...-- Bojan  Talk  15:42, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't have to prove anything of the sort, the three highly reliable sources I have cited make it clear that he was involved in leftist errors in Montenegro while he was there, ie from July to October during the uprising. One of the sources makes it clear that this was directed at kulaks and other class enemies. There is little point discussing this with you if you don't accept the reliable sources, but still insist that you are right, despite not having provided any sources that contradict the three I have produced. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:35, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67: Again, period of leftist error is winter 1941/1942. Đilas wasn't there. Partisan actions are against Italians and their collaborators (Greens). Can your eminent sources explain why Đilas departure and "sacking" didn't stop terror, if he was responsible for it? -- Bojan  Talk  02:22, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Here is source from Yugoslav era:

„Leve greške", ili klasno radikaliziranje narodnooslobodilačke borbe, izazvale su u zimu 1941—1942. i u proleće 1942. teške posledice na položaj i uticaj naodnooslobodilačkog pokreta u Crnoj Gori i istočnoj Bosni i Hercegovini. Pored stvarnih neprijatelja narodnooslobodilačkog pokreta dolazilo je do likvidacija i potencijalnih saradnika okupatora. Likvidacije su vršene i vansudskim putem što je izazvalo strah, porazno delovalo na jedinstvo narodnooslobodilačkog pokreta kompromitovalo revolucionarne snage. Nerazvijena društvena osnova s jakim tradicijama plemenske i bratstveničke strukture nije, na drugoj strani, mogla da prihvati preuranjena „klasna usijanja". Likvidacije pojedinih komunista, koji nisu žesli da učestvuju u izvršenju smrtnih kazni, još su više pogoršavale situaciju na štetu narodnooslobodilačkog pokreta. Leva istrčavanja praćena su odstupanjem od linije narodnooslobodilačke borbe. „Tutnjava o revoluciji" samo je išla naruku protivnicima narodnooslobodilačkog pokreta. Koalicija kontrarevolucionarnih snaa sa neprijateljem, okupatorom, poraz Crnogorskog narodnooslobodilačkog odeda za operacije u Sandžaku u Pljevljima, opasnost od gladi još više su uticali na zaoštravanje levog kursa. Nastup četničke kontrarevolucije u Crnoj Gori nisu, međutim, izazvale „leve greške", iako su ubrzale njenu pojavu, jer su prvaci bulući četničkih snaga odranije bili u dosluhu sa Mihailovićem. Mihailović je u svojim ranijim instrukcijama zahtevao da se onemogući delatnost paralelnih oružanih snaga, da se prekine sa borbom protiv okupatora i založi za stvaranje „velike" ili „homogene" Srbije, četnička kontrarevolucija je u Srbiji već počela kada je došlo do „levih grešaka", a ona se kao lančana reakcija od kasne jeseni proširila na sve „srpske zemlje"...

-- Bojan  Talk  02:32, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Which source is that? We need translation. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 03:03, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Branko Petranović, Momčilo Zečević JUGOSLAVIJA 1918-1988. TEMATSKA ZBIRKA DOKUMENATA. Footnote from page 558. -- Bojan  Talk  03:09, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Any text in Serbo-Croatian needs a translation. Don't assume editors can read languages other than English. I note that Petranović and Zečević is a collection of primary documents organised thematically. The strictures on our use of primary sources applies here. I'm afraid that your statement that the period of leftist terror being limited to the winter of 41/42 is not supported by the three reliable secondary sources I have produced, all of which are by academic scholars of Yugoslavia (two of which are non-Yugoslav, and so less likely to be biased or influenced by historical orthodoxy within Yugoslavia). So, your contention about the limits of the the leftist errors being winter 41/42 is clearly wrong. The fact that the terror continued after Đilas departed doesn't mean that these three sources aren't correct about his involvement in the leftist errors during the uprising between July and October. In any case, Milutinović arrived in Montenegro to replace Đilas in late October, so any continuation of leftist errors that occurred in the winter was most likely down to his influence as commander. One of the sources I quoted above mentions him as another of the radical leftists in the Communist Party, along with Đilas. Which doesn't mean that Đilas wasn't responsible for leftist errors during the uprising while he was present and in command. Leftist errors were made against perceived class enemies throughout, which included richer peasants (kulaks), regardless of their political views or lack thereof. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:53, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

I'll also note that Irvine's observation (currently cited in the article) about Đilas being removed from Montenegro for his leftist errors and reprimanded for them, is partially supported by Shepherd, who a bit further down the same page I quoted above says "Djilas was reprimanded for his 'leftist errors'...". So the reprimand for leftist errors is included by both Irvine and Shepherd. I think on that basis (and taking into account the three reliable secondary sources we have for Đilas' involvement in leftist errors in Montenegro), we can conclude that not only was he reprimanded for leftist errors, but he must have engaged in them while in Montenegro, which means they occurred between July and October. This completely demolishes your contention that leftist errors only occurred in Montenegro after he left. Sabrina Ramet also notes that Đilas was dismissed from his command role in Montenegro by Tito, but provides the partial of his letter of dismissal which talks about his poor tactical and political decisions in Montenegro. She also describes the event as a "sharp reprimand". This is on p. 152 of The Three Yugoslavias: State-building and Legitimation, 1918-2005. Moša Pijade was also reprimanded and recalled from Montenegro for the same leftist errors. Tito and His Comrades by Jože Pirjevec also describes the leftist errors for which Đilas was recalled on p. 72. There is no dispute based on evidence here, because all the secondary reliable sources mentioned above support the contention that Đilas was responsible for leftist errors and was recalled at least partly because of them. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:40, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it is collection of primary sources, but quoted text is a footnote/explanation of this documents. Petranović, as contemporary/witness as someone who is from Montenegro, had access to Yugoslav sources, is slightly better expert than someone who doesn't know Serbo-Croatian and rellies upon earlier published books. Lets say that Djilas is left extremist. If there were indeed red terror, ask Pirjavec why Royal Army officers like colonel Savo Orović, colonel Bajo Stanišić, captain Arso Jovanović, captain Velimir Terzić, captain Pero Ćetković were in partisan HQ or commanders of some partisan units? Why his removal didn't stop that? Against whom if there wasn't any other organized counterrevolutionary forces, then those who were pro-Italian? Why his successor Ivan Milutinović (who was absent from Montenegro until November 1941) was not relieved too, if "terror" against counterrevolutionaries (and who were also collaborators) intensified ? Chronology, facts, logic, Yugoslav sources say that there wasn't any terror until winter. -- Bojan  Talk  21:43, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

You are apparently having trouble comprehending the reliable sources policy, or the many sources I have linked here. There is no dispute, as you are clearly wrong, and are relying on a single primary source, versus the half-dozen reliable secondary sources I have provided. If you place the disputed tag on the article again without providing a considerable number of reliable secondary sources that contradict the ones I have linked above, I will report you for disruptive behaviour. Your "belief" that leftist errors did not occur under Đilas just isn't supported by the weight of sources. It is clearly a fringe view at best. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:34, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

No, your sources don't say when leftist errors begun. Yugoslav sources e.g. episode 10 of documentary Yugoslavia in War 1941–1945 featuring another partisan and historian Savo Skoko (sr:Саво Скоко) (6:01), Branko Petranović (7:08), Milovan Đilas (8:04), former partisans, former chetniks, set period/describe events of leftist errors after Operation Užice and partisan-chetnik split in Serbia, Soviet counteroffensive in battle of Moscow, attack on Perl Harbor and battle of Pljevlja (all events happened in late November-December 1941). I remind You, Đilas left Montenegro in mid-October. -- Bojan  Talk  21:48, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Unbelievably, I have to agree with Antid on this occasion. All I am seeing here is WP:IDHT responses. Haug (#1) which I have linked clearly says when the leftist errors occurred under Đilas in the summer of 1941, ie during the uprising while Đilas was in charge in Montenegro. Shepherd (#2) says "The Communist leadership in Montenegro, including one of Tito's closest associates, Milovan Djilas, tried immediately to implement full-scale revolution and the accompanying Red Terror against suspected "kulaks" and other class enemies." "Immediately", ie when the uprising began in July. How could he immediately tried to implement leftist errors AFTER he left Montenegro? The quote from Banac (#3) clearly backs up the fact that Đilas implemented leftist errors in Montenegro while he was there between July and October (ie during the uprising). I get the sense you are not even clicking on the links I have provided and reading what they say. IDHT behaviour is disruptive, as is the pointy tagging when there clearly is no dispute except in your own mind because you apparently seem to believe that you are right and the reliable secondary sources are wrong. Just drop it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:48, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

So, Hague, Shepherd, a Croat and Slovenian dudes know better than former partisans and chetniks, and Yugoslav historians who were also contemporary and in vicinity of these events? -- Bojan  Talk  06:06, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67: Also, I have remind you that YOU very stubborn on article Petar Baćović, you cited some sources - and you were eventually proven wrong... -- Bojan  Talk  06:14, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

No, the reliable secondary sources I have linked say one thing (that Đilas was involved in leftist errors in Montenegro between July and October 1941), and your sources (mostly primary) refer to the leftist errors that occurred over the winter. They do not say that Đilas wasn't involved in leftist errors between July and October, or that leftist errors ONLY occurred over the winter. What your sources actually say doesn't exclude leftist errors by Đilas from the uprising period from July, but mine clearly say he was involved in them, and was in fact was reprimanded for them (along with other things relating to his handling of the uprising). I was not "proven wrong" in the Baćović discussion. That discussion actually demonstrates your pattern of behaviour when faced with facts you don't agree with. The article was a GA at the time, and deletions of material in GAs need to be discussed. In that case, you were hanging your position on a single Yugoslav source (Jelić-Butić), you were very impatient and did not not allow time for discussion to develop, and you edit-warred over it instead of looking for other reliable sources that would support or weaken the existing sources and/or your own. This was poor wikibehaviour at best, and exactly what you are doing here. There was an existing Yugoslav source that said something different about Baćović's location (from no less Partisan personalities than Vladimir Dedijer and Antun Miletić, I might add). As a result of you raising the issue, I then methodically examined other Yugoslav and non-Yugoslav sources (something you completely failed to do) and determined, in consultation with 23 editor, that the weight of the other sources I examined agreed with Jelić-Butić and contradicted Dedijer & Miletić. So, by examining a range of other sources, I was able to clearly show that Dedijer & Miletić had made an error, and that their version could be removed from the article without the need to point out the different versions of events, which is what we normally do when reliable sources differ. My course of action was the correct one in that case, and it is the correct course of action here. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:38, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

My modus operandi is that I challenged accuracy of the article on talk page, before I made any edit in, cause nobody was bothered to reply me for 36 hours. Almost 3 weeks were needed for you to engage in this discussion, but it was needed only 24 hours before reverted me for the first time.

I will always point GA review for Petar Baćović as failure of Wikipedia. I know that Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia created by volunteers, that anyone can edit and 99,99% editors aren't pros. Neither I am, but I'm not a newby; I knew Baćović was in Dalmatia right before Operation Weiss. It was 6 years ago, so I remind you for that. Perhaps I know better than You history of my country, perhaps my logic is as good as Baćović's case.

Your reliable sources are below a decent Wikipedia article. Events in Montenegro described there are just a footnote or in the best case a page. But they don't give any example what exactly Đilas did or might did, thus giving reason someone would consider him responsible for leftist errors. Leftist errors usually mean red terror (killing of people suspecting that they are chetniks/counterrevolutionaries) even before Mihailović's men move their asses in Serbia 4 weeks after Italians begun their counteroffensive against Montenegrin partisans. For me is not enough that someone writes that Đilas might indeed spiritus movens behind killing, I want to know what he exactly did. Until then, I won't stop on insisting that facts/events have chronology, cause and consequences. I repeat, there weren't any other military units aside from partisans and Italians in summer of 1941. Montenegrin Federalist/Greens (such as Sekula Drljević, Mihailo Ivanović, Jovo Popović...) were enemy of partisans from very first day. Killings of people such they were will not cause emergence of chetnik units led by Đorđije Lašić, Pavle Đurišić, etc. -- Bojan  Talk  09:56, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Montenegrin or Montenegrin Serb

In an 1991 interview to Vreme, Đilas called himself a "Serb from Montenegro". Elserbio00 (talk) 22:29, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Vreme is 100% RS and one of the best magazines in Serbia and former Yu. This information is notable enough for the lead and the paragraph on his early life. thanks, Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 00:17, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

While Vreme is usually reliable, we need to look at s range of sources on this issue before deciding what goes in the lead, infobox and body as the consensus position.

Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:59, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

In this video Đilas says:

"Not only have I heard an authentic guslar, to whom lightning flashes from a gusla and to whom thunder thunders from his mouth, but what I have heard, but what I have seen an authentic representative of our race, when nothing can tire, confuse, frighten. Who has several talents in him, as all our true representatives of our region and our SERB race have"

Elserbio00 (talk) 09:49, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

In this BBC Serbian article, historian Dejan Đokić from the Goldsmiths University calls him a "Montenegrin, Serb, and Yugoslav". Elserbio00 (talk) 10:12, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

In his novel Montenegro, Đilas writes:

"I am a Montenegrin Serb. I am a Serb because I am Montenegrin. I am not a Montenegrin because I am a Serb, but a Serb because I am a Montenegrin. We Montenegrins, we are the pillar of Serbdom"

Elserbio00 (talk) 11:17, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Ethnicity doesn’t go in the lead, however. Him being Montenegrin wasn’t in the lead so why would him being and ethnic Serb be put in the lead. Seems like a double standard compared to other articles following the same Wiki rules. OyMosby (talk) 16:13, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree with you there, however, I believe that this is plenty of sources in order to add that he is a Montenegrin Serb instead of a Montenegrin in the beginning of bio section. Elserbio00 (talk) 16:32, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Agreed.OyMosby (talk) 21:42, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, there is enough here now to add that to the body with a link to Serbs of Montenegro. I would use a citation to Vreme as the source, as it is an interview with the man himself. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:58, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

References