Talk:Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah

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Members[edit]

This article should have a listing of all current and past members of the Moatzos of both the American and Israeli branches. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.39.165.110 (talk • contribs)

So why don't you go ahead and do it then? IZAK 20:32, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Categiry under the same name also need to be moved[edit]

I have moved the page "Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah" to "Moetzet Gedolei HaTorah". The category under the same name needs to move as well, however I can't find "move" for the category's page, can anybody help ? --Midrashah (talk) 17:41, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Article title and customary transliteration[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus to rename the article to Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah.

Infoman99 (talk) 20:54, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Moetzet Gedolei HaTorah → Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah — |Relisted billinghurst sDrewth 04:06, 14 July 2010 (UTC)| Infoman99 (talk) 21:02, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A variety of Google searches (Books, Scholar, News, Web) indicate that "Moetzes" is the preferred transliteration over "Moetzet" -- although Moetzet appears to be slightly favored when discussing just the council in Israel.

Based on these numbers below, there appears to be a strong basis for changing the article name back to "Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah". I've included a variety of cites in the article itself.

Google Books search

"Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah" - 274 results
"Moetzet Gedolei HaTorah" - 74 results

Google Web search

"Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah" - About 264,000 results
"Moetzet Gedolei HaTorah" - About 4,370 results

Google News search

"Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah" - 2 results
"Moetzet Gedolei HaTorah" - 0 results

Google Scholar search

"Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah" - 5 results
"Moetzet Gedolei HaTorah" - 7 results

Infoman99 (talk) 20:54, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here is my opinion:

Moetzet - is the correct translation, however, many hebrew names etc, that ends with "t" (or includes it), is pronounced by native English Jewish speakers, as an "s", as we see in this example, and this is why it is more popular in this form on google (as with an "S"). So, I think one may choose either way, because both are important elements in the translation. --Midrashah (talk) 14:39, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly this is a distinction in the usual transliteration of ת as /s/ in Ashkenazi Hebrew and /t/ in Modern Israeli Hebrew. As you know, while Modern Israeli Hebrew is the standard pronunciation scheme in Israel, Ashkenazi pronunciation is typically favored by the more observant, Orthodox, and Haredi segments of the Ashkenazi Jewish community worldwide^[1]^[2]^[3] -- the people who would be familiar with the מועצת in its usual context under World Agudath/Agudah of America. The scholars who study it have followed this practice. This seems to have resulted in the lopsided results in print and online favoring the transliteration /s/.

(And I would not agree that the Modern Israeli Hebrew transliteration is "the correct" transliteration.^[4] Ashkenazi pronunciation is an alternative scheme that is used widely, including in the United States, Europe, South America, and even in Israel in the interplay of Hebrew and Yiddish^[5].)

Wikipedia policy WP:UCN calls for using the common name of the topic,^[6] as determined from a variety of reliable sources and through search engine testing.

Given that:

the majority of sources on the מועצת appear to be discussing Agudah of America's (or the original European מועצת), and not the Israeli Moetzot
those sources heavily favor /s/
there is discussion in the article about the transliterations and that /t/ is the favored transliteration in Israel,

I believe that the article title should reflect these factors, and be changed back to Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah. Infoman99 (talk) 16:33, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see much difference, both are imporatnat elements in the translation, since this is an English wikipedia, probably 'S' is prefered. --Midrashah (talk) 07:02, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Given the statement above, consensus favors the move of the article to Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah. Infoman99 (talk) 20:56, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

References[edit]

^ [1] "While there can be few outside Israel who can write a Hebrew that is not heavily influenced by Israeli norms, traditional Ashkenazi pronunciations are holding their own in many Orthodox circles, for reasons that have much to do with ideology and subethnicity."
^ [2] "The second concerns the phenomenon of a re-invented modern Ashkenazi pronunciation, with some altered vowels and added consonant contrasts, and used notably by a number of newly observant native speakers of Hebrew for public prayer"
^ [3] "Since the 1930’s, the use of this (Ashkenazic) pronunciation was reduced to a viable option among the Orthodox community alone, which anyway never accepted the new culture."
^ [4] "To him belongs the credit, too, for being the first to show that the Ashkenazi pronunciation of Hebrew was not inherently wrong, but represented a different tradition which was as legitimate as that of the Sefardim."
^ [5]
^ "Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, such as Greek, Chinese or Russian names, must be transliterated. Established systematic transliterations, such as Hanyu Pinyin, are preferred. However if there is a common English-language form of the name, then use it, even if it is unsystematic (as with Tchaikovsky and Chiang Kai-shek)."

Collective noun / grammar edit[edit]

Winchester2313 - your edit [6], which changes the singular verb to plural, implies that the Moetzes members act individually for policy and leadership purposes. My understanding is that the Moetzes attempts to act collectively, like many other leadership bodies. As such, the verb would be singular. Are there other sources you have available indicating that each of the Moetzes members acts to their own end? Thanks. Infoman99 (talk) 21:47, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure whence you derive that implication - it was simply a grammatical correction, by which I stand. The members of the Moetzes do, however, largely function in individual capacities. The Moetzes as an organization rarely (if ever) issues halachic decisions or the like. Please correct me if I'm wrong? --Winchester2313 (talk) 05:56, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Rabbi Mayer Alter Horowitz is a member of the Moetzes Agudas Yisroel[edit]

Rabbi Mayer Alter Horowitz is clearly a member of the Moetzes Agudas Yisroel For some reason certain individuals are trying to spread rumors that Rabbi Horowitz was somehow thrown out of this organization Not only have a supplied newspaper articles and pictures as proof from the most recent February 8th 2013 meeting which anonymous ISPs continue to delete and now replace with unsubstantiated claims to false references such as personal blogs which proves nothing, but these individuals are not even transferring the name of Rabbi Mayer Alter Horowitz from current members to past members which shows they are not interested in truth, but just misinformation.

They are not disputing that Rabbi Mayer Alter Horowitz's father, Rabbi Levi Yitzchok Horowitz was a past member, and the bylaws of the Agudas Yisroel (which I have a copy of as proof if necessary) state that a son inherits the seat of his father on the Moetzes. Rabbi Mayer Alter Horowitz attended the last meeting, and his removal from the Moetzes could not have existed without some formal vote, which never happened, and for which these individuals looking to misinform, have never even attempted to prove or reference, since it never happened These individuals are also making revisions to Mayer Alter Horowitz's individual wikipedia page as well

I am trying to undo their revisions but the process is becoming time consuming. They continue to use anonymous ISPs without talk pages, and although I have an idea of who they may be, I have no way of contacting them or having a discussion with them, except with back and forth comments in the Edit Summaries, which I think is not the proper place to contact them to discuss, but I do not know what else to do.

I am asking a third party or anyone else objective to get involve objectively, to make sure the objective truth is reflected on wikipedia to somehow stop the misinformation and those who are misinforming

BetzalelGersten (talk) 12:29, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lets understand why the Hamodia, the official Aguda newspaper, in both Hebrew and English "forgot" to list Rabbi Horowitz as a member of the Moetzes. Interesting.

Yated Neeman "forgot" to mention his presence at the meeting.

Rabbi Horowitz himself published a letter against his being violently removed from the Moetzes.

How strange.

מכות לבוסטענער - הוא גורש בבושת פנים - לא נתנו לו להכנס למועצת המאוחדת

Maybe if you would stick to the facts, as you have just recently started doing, your posts wouldn't be corrected.

RmahHN (talk) 09:31, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just remember…[edit]

…רבותי, that editing wikipedia is no excuse for being מחלל שם שמים בפרהסיא, חס וחלילה!! -- Avi (talk) 18:13, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Members of giants?[edit]

What does this mean: a council of rabbis in which there will be members of Torah giants around the world. Please rephrase. --2.204.226.151 (talk) 10:16, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed. The Hebrew: "גדולי התורה בעולם". I change: "leading rabbis". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geshem Bracha (talk • contribs) 13:28, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

[Questia-1] [1] "While there can be few outside Israel who can write a Hebrew that is not heavily influenced by Israeli norms, traditional Ashkenazi pronunciations are holding their own in many Orthodox circles, for reasons that have much to do with ideology and subethnicity."

[Triglossia"-2] [2] "The second concerns the phenomenon of a re-invented modern Ashkenazi pronunciation, with some altered vowels and added consonant contrasts, and used notably by a number of newly observant native speakers of Hebrew for public prayer"

[TAU-3] [3] "Since the 1930’s, the use of this (Ashkenazic) pronunciation was reduced to a viable option among the Orthodox community alone, which anyway never accepted the new culture."

[Abrahams-4] [4] "To him belongs the credit, too, for being the first to show that the Ashkenazi pronunciation of Hebrew was not inherently wrong, but represented a different tradition which was as legitimate as that of the Sefardim."

[Global-5] [5]

[UCN"-6] "Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, such as Greek, Chinese or Russian names, must be transliterated. Established systematic transliterations, such as Hanyu Pinyin, are preferred. However if there is a common English-language form of the name, then use it, even if it is unsystematic (as with Tchaikovsky and Chiang Kai-shek)."

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]

[6]