Talk:Music of Cuba/Archive 1

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Hi TUF-KAT, thanks for the notes on my user page. I agree, Cuban music is highly complex. I noticed you just expanded the section on Son Montuno. Perhaps you didn't notice that I had already written a rather short piece on it some time ago, before I was aware of this article. Now I am wondering whether to merge mine here or refactor yours there... or leave as is. On the one hand, it would make sense to have the information in one place, on the other, you add links for everything suggesting that spinoff articles should come...

Anyway, good work here. Such broad surveys must be quite a challenge; up to now, I have mostly focused on narrower topics. -- Viajero 20:58, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

To some extent, of course there will be overlap between articles like son montuno, music of Cuba and Latin music, for example, but I think this is necessary. If each subject deserves an article (i.e. is a discrete subject that persons may search for) then there should be something there. For example, I may be interested in getting an overview of Cuban music because I am writing an essay on Cuban culture, or I may be writing a musicological thesis about son or whathave you. In general, broad articles should be less specific. For example, this article should contain a broad outline of how son developed and its characteristics, and do the same for other types of Cuban music, as well as information on how Cubans have influenced other countries, and how music from elsewhere has impacted Cuba. The article on son montuno should focus entirely on the characteristics and history of son, and include information on son's popularity and its performers outside of Cuba. There may be too much information on son here at the moment, but please don't remove anything for a day or two, because I am adding information from a print source -- once I am done, we can look at what sections are too long or specific and do what should be done.
I suppose the point is that music of Cuba is an encyclopedic subject that is not the same idea as son montuno, which is also an encyclopedic subject. Therefore, both articles should exist and there will, of course, be overlap.
I did see your article at son montuno, and it looks great. Many thanks for your contributions on this subject.
Tuf-Kat 06:58, Oct 29, 2003 (UTC)
Okay, nevermind -- I finished with my source tonight, so do what you will. I don't think anything needs to be move out of this article, but be bold in updating pages. If you step on my toes, I will scream and shout and pout or otherwise make you aware, and we can discuss. I'm not entirely sure what you are in favor of doing. Can you give an example of links you want to remove, or sections you want to move elsewhere? Tuf-Kat 08:48, Oct 29, 2003 (UTC)
Actually, I am not sure what I have in mind (!). Normally, I am not timid about editing, but this is a complex subject. To begin with, something minor: I would change certain terms from links to italics, like periodo especial and nueva trova. And delink the names of a few very obscure musicians. It would make the article look slightly less like a Christmas tree. More than that, I have to think about it. All for now. -- Viajero 11:55, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Your latest change is great!!! Tuf-Kat 07:11, Oct 30, 2003 (UTC)
Thanks for your encouraging words. Up until yesterday, I thought that articles shouldn't duplicate each other, that similar texts should be merged or refactored into a separate article. But now I am not so sure. Some of the text here would improve the Son montuno article, but what is an article on Cuban music w/o a coverage of son? Anyway, I may tweak a few more things here but for the most part I think I will devote my energies to specific topics, like Rubén Blades where my proclivities and -- I hope -- my talents lie. -- Viajero 11:17, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Request for merge

I moved a huge piece from Music of Cuba to already existing Son montuno. Please, someone who knows the topic, merge the two pieces and write a summary for the Music of Cuba#Son montuno section. If no one undertakes this in a week or two, I'll try to do it myself. Mikkalai 20:51, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I apologize to the authors of both articles, but it seems that they start to live their own separate lifes, and it is important to keep information coherent. Mikkalai 20:55, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

new entry: timba

Hey people I've created an entry for timba, which I felt was badly missing. I might go and doctor a little on this page. Minor things, like calling bata a genre (ouch)....

kashasu


I took the liberty of changing in "Tinga is to Havana what tango is to Buenos Aires and pagode is to Rio de Janeiro" for "samba is to Rio de Janeiro" since it works better to compare; pagode is a new wave and in no way as traditional as tango for example.

--El Chemaniaco 15:40, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. kash

cuban music in spanish wikipedia

I've been looking at other language Wikipedia articles. The Spanish-language Wikipedia has only one (!) paragraph on Cuban music (the Portuguese have one sentence). I'll take it upon myself to translate the timba article and perhaps to do a structured overview, roughly based on this one. If anyone in here speaks Spanish then please help! --kashasu 00:45, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

I will help translating to both languages.

--El Chemaniaco 15:41, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Reggaeton and pop/rock

I am sure there should be mention of Reggaeton, Cubanitos 20 02, and also some mention of groups like Moneda Dura and Buena Fe. -- Beardo 03:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

El Benny

And I can't see any mention of Benny More. I have included an adapted version of the opening paragraph from his article. -- Beardo 03:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

What about Bebo and Chucho Valdes??? and Gonzalo Rubacalba???

They have pages on Wiki but aren't linked here...would seem they deserve a signicant mention??? They are considered by most with knowledge to be at or very near the top of Cuban jazz musicians. There really needs to be a section on Cuban jazz, and it should include both the musicians who have stayed in Cuba and those who have left, without an emphasis on the anti-Castro or pro-Castro group, especially the former. Tvccs 09:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Cuban folk music merge

Really should be merged - don't think a split is needed. It just looks like an essay that's been uploaded, not that that's bad. Who's for it? ♣Electriceel [Talk] 06:25, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Needed

Article on descarga. Badagnani 04:42, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Biased

"Since most people believe that hip hop is a way of self-expressing oneself, Cuba would be the least of nations to allow hip hop and rap flow through its radios and televisions. Those few hip hop artists that tried to rise to fame would be quickly crushed by the Communistic regime of Cuba." THIS IS BIASED AND NOT IN THE APPROPRIATE LANGUAGE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.247.242.169 (talk) 13:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Contents structure

The classification is in a mess, both in detail and in general. Examples: Changui is a subset of son, not the other way. Bata is nothing to do with either, being part of Regla de Ocha (Lucumi or 'Santeria'). Habanera is the precursor of Danzon, and both are descendents of Danza (not mentioned at all). Musica campesina is a social category, not a specific form like Guajira. And so on.

Attempts to classify Cuban music have traditionally been based on choosing a main dimension, such as Socio-cultural history:

1. Spanish tradition
1.1 Paso doble
1.2 Punto
1.3 &c &c
2. African tradition
2.1 Yoruba/Lucumi
2.2 Rumba
2.3 &c &c
3. Afro-Spanish mezcla
3.1 Son
3.2 Guaracha
3.3 &c &c

A different, but also good method is to go historically, say, century by century. That has the weakness that most of the content comes from the 20thC, but seems natural to a reader.

One thing is for sure, that there has to be a reorganisation of categories. I will make some modest changes to remove real errors, but the big reorg needs others to have their say first. Macdonald-ross (talk) 13:54, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

References and accents

I've gone to town on this because so many of the related pages have no references or only extremely dubious web refs. The list is meant as a source for all Cuban music articles in WP. The added comments are meant to help those who wish to buy a few key reference works. And, er, it might help to look at the refs before quoting them...

WP is currently depriving us of the ability to add accents and other diacritics to non-English words. This is a retrograde step, in my opinion. Macdonald-ross (talk) 16:57, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Plans

There are still some important areas untouched, but already the article is quite long. I propose to shorten biographical material here for each musician who has an individual article devoted to him/her. Space saved will go to these themes:

1. The instrumentation of popular conjuntos (some of this is already in the article)

2, Street comparsas of (initially) black origin, their music and history. As with the (initially) white theatre, these have been a fertile ground for musical innovation.

Macdonald-ross (talk) 18:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Now largely completed. Macdonald-ross (talk) 20:24, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Boundaries

For reasons spelled out in this & related articles, we need not raise artificial boundaries between folk, popular, classical and art music. In Cuba, at least, most composers, musicians and singers worked in a wide range of genres; only after the revolution did boundaries appear between art and popular music, mainly because the government 'improved' the educational and commercial structure of the country. Similarly, the boundary between folk and popular music is unnecessary and unhelpful. What does it add to call Afro-Cuban music 'folk' music?

The perspective offered in the article is that of Fernando Ortiz and countless other Cuban researchers: most Cuban music is Spanish/European or African in its origin. Today, almost all popular genres are creolized fusions of these two great sources. Macdonald-ross (talk) 08:04, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

References

The flags placed on the article were not justified, and were evidently done without reading the text. The list of references were intended for use on the whole series of articles connected to Cuban music, not just this article. By comparison with other similar articles on latin and American music, it can be seen that most of them have few references to printed sources. This suggests that contributors do not know where to look for reliable sources. This set of references was meant to solve that problem for Cuban music, at least. The listed sources can certainly be found in the libraries of Cuban, U.S., Puerto Rican, Mexican and South American universities.

The in-line references are absolutely consistent in themselves, and do not need changing. However, I have altered the headings on the page to make these points clear. Macdonald-ross (talk) 07:18, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Rap/Hip-hop/regaeton

There's a strict limit to the space that can be taken by musical forms that are, in their origin, non-Cuban. The article is already over-long with accounts of music which Cubans themselves have created! Macdonald-ross (talk) 12:38, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

No original research

"Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, arguments, or conclusions."

See details in WP:No original research and WP:Reliable references. Macdonald-ross (talk) 17:08, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Removal of OR material is not a comment on its truth or falsity; it is compliance with WP's basic editorial guidance and procedures. Macdonald-ross (talk) 17:33, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Taíno Influence

While there is certainly little research and documentation regarding the Taíno influence on modern Cuban music, there is no doubt that the omnipresence of the güiro and maraca in popular music going back to the Danzón serves as a direct link with the Taíno musical heritage. It's more than a little dismissive to reduce this influence to tobacco and place-names. It would be a benefit to all if the authors of this article would to put more thought into this. --96.246.75.188 (talk) 17:12, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Bias in hip hop section

"Under this scheme, the government gives rap and hip-hop groups time on mass media outlets in return for hip-hop artists limiting self expression and presenting the government in a positive way"

Strongly suggest taking this out as the source is a sophomore student in a college newspaper and there is no evidence provided for this claim. The Cuban Rap Agency is more of a state-sponsored scheme to get commercially viable cuban hip hop/reggaeton record deals and international tours (with the potential for funds that cuba might make from that as it has done in the past with other genres) than some kind of propaganda machine.

There is some academic debate as to the effect that the government's involvement has on cuban rap and whether it represents cuban hip hop being 'co-opted' by the state - could replace the POV claim with a reference to that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.167.172.12 (talk) 15:06, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Source

In follow up of this request, please consider Zaragemca's brief on Jazz Music as a source of information in the Music of Cuba article. Gerry Zaragemca is written about in Cuba native teaches art of 'nonverbal' communication and Zaragemca's brief on Jazz Music may (or may not) qualify as a Wikipedia reliable source. -- Jreferee (talk) 13:09, 12 January 2014 (UTC). The point is that there is not explanation why it does not qualified as an article (Zaragemca 's Brief on Jazz'.

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More about 19th century Cuban composers

I have recently discovered the piano music of José Comellas and Nicolas Ruíz Espadero, and sadly found them missing from this article. And José Comellas has no English Wikipedia article here at all. :( https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Cuban_people https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Comellas%2C_José

More info about Ignacio Cervantes would also be helpful.

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