Talk:Nazi concentration camps/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Please correct

@Buidhe

I reviewed just one sequence here in your rewrite of this article (might check more later). The source you quoted from The Liberation of the Camps: The End of the Holocaust and Its Aftermath by Dan Stone (page 11 [1]) reads:

Large numbers of Czechs, veterans of the Spanish Civil War, and especially Poles boosted the numbers of camp inmates in 1940.

You wrote [2] -

..people from countries occupied by the Wehrmacht were targeted and detained in concentration camps, especially Czechs from the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, Republican veterans of the Spanish Civil War, and Poles.

The source does not say especially Czechs and veterans of the Spanish Civil war but it says especially Poles. Please correct that. - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:22, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Two sentences later the article says "especially Poles". I can't follow the exact wording in the source as that would be copyvio. (t · c) buidhe 05:25, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

The brief quote is not an exhaustive list of countries targeted as a more in-depth perusal of the cited sources would show you. What the source says is that a particularly large number of prisoners came from these countries. (t · c) buidhe 05:27, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

It’s done - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:37, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Edit is not satisfactory and does not reflect the totality of cited source material. You misleadingly remove the reference to Spanish Republicans, what, were they locking up Spanish Falangists too? No reliable source says that. Your edit also leaves the paragraph saying "especially Poles" twice, which looks like bad writing and an attempt to overemphasize a particular group. (t · c) buidhe 05:39, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

I addressed “especially Poles” concern with this edit -->[3] - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:50, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

You quoted - Large numbers of Czechs, veterans of the Spanish Civil War, and especially Poles boosted the numbers of camp inmates in 1940. [4] Quote another source for me please. - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:45, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Fine, I'm not interested in this discussion so I've removed this sentence entirely. Are you happy? (t · c) buidhe 06:01, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Not Nazi! But "German concentration camp"

There is no such thing as a Nazi concentration camp! Neither historically were they not called that, but also not in fact. Concentration camps were german and must also be called German concentration camps. These camps were set up by the German state, German officials, German money and German law and not by a group of people in Germany! And if you could even think so, then this group was elected by over 70% of Germans. Nazis were everywhere in the world, in Italy, in the USA, in Hungary, in almost every country. Even today there are Nazis. But the Second World War was not started by Nazis, but by Germany, and Germany carried out the crimes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.9.3.93 (talk) 04:08, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Reliable sources disagree with you. (t · c) buidhe 17:56, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Unreliable source, strong bias

In the article it is stated that Ottoman Armenian refugees were held in concentration camps.

The cited reference is not a reliable source. Reliable sources are needed. (Author of do not know Turkish so he cannot read and evaluate original documents himself)

Also it is simply wrong to compare these camps with nazi concentration camps. (For example do we compare contemporary refugee camps with nazi camps? Do these camps specifically set up to exterminate people either with harsh conditions or other measures?)

This is clearly using wikipedia for political matters. Wikipedia is not a place for political purposes. 46.106.162.21 (talk) 06:56, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

A general reference about concentration camps by a historian seems quite good for a summary like this. I don't know whether the author reads Armenian. —Kusma (talk) 09:23, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

More information and sources are at Deir ez-Zor camps. (I don't know whether these were the only Concentration camps during the Armenian genocide, though). —Kusma (talk) 19:06, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Misrepresentation of statistics

The suggestion that the food offered at the concentration camps was "enough to sustain life" is ridiculous.

There is exaggerated information and misinformation stated and implied throughout in multiple places throughout this article that suggest the Jews' plight at the hands of the Nazis were supposedly not as bad as what has been correctly known over the past 77 years. I perceive that statistics about Jews during WWII and their treatment have been misrepresented in this article, possibly intentionally. DONT MISREPRESENT THE STATISTICS BIT BY BIT UNTIL THE HISTORY RECORDS ARE INCORRECT. WE MUST NEVER FORGET THE ATTACK ON JEWS DURING THE HOLOCAUST! 97.32.1.164 (talk) 06:19, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Why only the Jews? Holocaust victims included so many Soviets. Dimadick (talk) 14:46, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Holocaust victims did not include Soviets. The Holocaust refers to the systematic and intentional hunting down and extermination of every Jew that the Nazis could find. Soviets and many others were victims of the Nazis, but they were not slated out for destruction in the way that the Jews were. 90% of the Jews in the territories that the Nazis occupied were exterminated. This cannot begun to be said about any other group! 185.182.71.32 (talk) 17:25, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

The jews were not the only victims, Nazis had a full 100% extermination plan for the Roma. PRAXIDICAE🌈 17:32, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/holocaust: "The Holocaust was Nazi Germany’s deliberate, organized, state-sponsored persecution and machinelike murder of approximately six million European Jews and at least five million prisoners of war, Romany, Jehovah’s Witnesses, homosexuals, and other victims." 70.31.166.89 (talk) 22:31, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Discussion of who knew about these camps, when.

Leaving this information out only opens this article to criticism by hateful people who support anti semtic conspiracies. 70.73.175.85 (talk) 16:32, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh, we get that regardless. What additions do you suggest to the article? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 16:35, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

quite clearly: who knew of the camps' existence and when? thank you 70.31.166.89 (talk) 22:33, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

That's a rather broad and controversial topic which should probably be covered in a separate article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:46, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

@Buidhe: Do you have thoughts on this? Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:48, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

I think OP may be thinking about Knowledge of the Holocaust in Nazi Germany and German-occupied Europe, not this article in particular. (t · c) buidhe 05:10, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Because as stated in the article, there were few deaths before 1939, most prisoners were not Jews, the article is about concentration camp rather than the extermination camps, etc. (t · c) buidhe 05:12, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Infobox, "Main camps"

I don't understand the criterion for inclusion in the infobox under the "Main camp" section. Why Warsaw (the dedicated article says a total of 8,000 to 9,000 inmates were held there) and not Treblinka (it is estimated that between 700,000 and 900,000 Jews were murdered in its gas chambers)? Why not Sobibor, Belzec and Chelmno? Apparently extermination camps were distinguished from concentration camps and left out of the box (except from Auschwitz), but I wonder if that's reasonable. Extermination camps are a subset of concentration camps and, besides, most of the readers looking for information on concentration camps are also interested in extermination camps. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:04, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Gitz, this article is about the system of camps administer by the SS-WVHA and not anything that might be called a concentration camp. Likewise, the main camps are an official designation based on administration and not based directly on the number of prisoners. (t · c) buidhe 16:46, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but the "official designation" is only one consideration to take into account.

1. Most of the readers who read the list of concentration camps in the infobox are also interesed in extermination camps. Why else would they bother to read the list? It's likely that they are trying to remember the name of a concentration/extermination camp or are looking for the wikilink to an article on some concentration/extermination camp. In both cases adding a separate list of extermination camps would be helpful to them.
2. Extermination camps were run separately from the concentration camp system (Wachsmann 2009, pp. 30–31) and Bureaucratically, they constituted separate facilities (Sofsky 2013, p. 12), but in common parlance they are also called "concentration camps" and plenty of RSs adopt this usage. E.g. Holocaust Encyclopedia, Nazi camps (Many people refer to all of the Nazi incarceration sites during the Holocaust as concentration camps); Michael Berenbaum's article on Treblinka in Encyclopaedia Britannica (Treblinka, major Nazi German concentration camp and extermination camp, located near the village of Treblinka); Id, extermination camp (extermination camp, German Vernichtungslager, Nazi German concentration camp that specialized in the mass annihilation); Jewish Virtual Library with entries on "Chelmno Concentration Camp", "Treblinka Concentration Camp", "Majdanek Concentration Camp", etc.
3. The article already mentions extermination camps to say that they were set up outside the concentration camp system, so having some content on them in the infobox would be justifiable.

Gitz (talk) (contribs) 21:19, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia's article scopes are based on high quality RS, not on "common parlance". That's why there is a hatnote to disambiguate other things the reader may be looking for. (t · c) buidhe 23:36, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

It is debatable whether Nazi administrative law (the system of camps administer by the SS-WVHA) should be more relevant for determining the scope of Wikipedia's articles than "common parlance" - the ordinary language our reader use - especially when ordinary language is also based on high quality RS, such as the Encyclopaedia Britannica entries mentioned above. Let me also clarify this: I'm only proposing to include a list of extermination camps in the Infobox, but I wouldn't modify the scope of the article. Some content on Treblinka, etc., is already included. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:20, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica is not a good source for this topic. The article scope reflects that of scholarly sources such as the Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, Concentration Camps in Nazi Germany, Der Ort des Terrors, etc. Why would a list of extermination camps be included if it's not in the article scope? (t · c) buidhe 01:16, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Red link in background regarding Armenian Genocide Camps

The article is currently semi-protected (but I wonder when an article such as this one is not?) or I would edit this myself as I think it is sound. Anyways, in the Background section, the words "held in camps" currently is a red link, leading to a non-existent article "Concentration camps during the Armenian genocide". After perusal, I suggest the link be to Deir ez-Zor camps, as Deir ez-Zor seems to be a name inclusive of all concentration camps during the Armenian genocide, which the red link in question appears to be connecting this article to. Perhaps the name of Deir ez-Zor camps article should be updated to Deir ez-Zor concentration camps but that would be a discussion for that article. AVNOJ1989 (talk) 02:09, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

There were a variety of camps during the Armenian genocide, the ones in Deir ez Zor were a subset of them. I don't approve of this redirect as proposed because the article as it exists doesn't say much of anything about the overall camp system (eg. see Mouradian's chapter in this book) (t · c) buidhe 03:22, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 November 2023

In “Background”, change “Concentration camps are conventionally held to have been invented by the British during the Second Boer War, but historian Dan Stone argues that there were precedents in other countries and that camps were "the logical extension of phenomena that had long characterized colonial rule".[4] Although the word "concentration camp" has acquired the connotation of murder because of the Nazi concentration camps, the British camps in South Africa did not involve systematic murder”

To “Concentration camps are generally held by historians to have been invented by the Spanish during the Cuban War of Independence; with Spain even inventing the term “Concentration Camps” to describe their creation. They were subsequently used by the United States in the Philippines during the Philippine-American War, and then by the British in South Africa during the Second Boer War. Whilst there is a common misconception that Concentration Camps were invented by the British during the Second Boer War, this myth actually originated as Nazi Propaganda when Hermann Göring falsely claimed in a press interview that the British had invented Concentration Camps in order to deflect a British Ambassador’s protest about the German camps. Although the word "concentration camp" has acquired the connotation of murder because of the Nazi concentration camps, the Spanish, American and British camps in did not involve systematic murder.”

Change is because current paragraph gives a false and misleading impression regarding modern scholarship on the subject- presenting the general consensus as being that the camps were invented by the British and the view that they did not as being a fringe perspective. Whilst there is a popular idea that the British invented Camps, virtually all credible historians on the topic agree the camps were invented by the Spanish in Cuba, then used by the United States in the Philippines, and then subsequently by the British in South Africa. The current paragraph results in the Google search “who invented concentration camps” giving the historically inaccurate answer of “the British”. Whilst the scholarship on this can be accessed in many places, here is an example credible example source (the Smithsonian Museum), which can be used to cite the above recommended changed paragraph: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/concentration-camps-existed-long-before-Auschwitz-180967049/ HallowbyHaunts (talk) 22:12, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done I believe Stone does say that the first concentration camps are usually said to be the British ones. This may not be the correct view but if it is widely held it isn't wrong to mention it in a Wikipedia article. See wp:verifiability, not truth (t · c) buidhe 22:46, 5 November 2023 (UTC)