Talk:Nelson's Pillar/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Butler House

It might be worth trying to get a picture of the remains of the column that are at Butler House in Kilkenny. Even if no-one is able to get a photo, the hotel might be willing to release a freely licensed photo (it would give them some publicity). The photo on their website shows old stone blocks around a pond/fountain in the gardens: [1]. This tallies with this account which says "The Butler House Walled Garden was redesigned in 1999 and surrounds the old dower house. Sit down by the garden pond and you'll literally be immersed in Irish history as the seating is made from the base stones of Nelson's Pillar - the bombed monument that once resided on O'Connell Street in Dublin. No sign of old Horatio about the place, though." The bit in the article about "parts of the lettered stonework" seems less sure (maybe that changed in the 1999 redesign?). Would love to see a picture of that (or indeed the original carved writing), as the Irish Literary Association seemed to think it should be preserved. Wonder which museums have fragments and whether that might also be worth following up for photos? Carcharoth (talk) 14:37, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Found the stones in the Butler House Walled Garden. Added the image to the article. Will look to see if there are museum photos around as well. Apparently the head ended up in the Dublin Civic Museum in South William Street (but that museum closed in 2003). Carcharoth (talk) 14:52, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the Butler House image. The head finished up in Pearse Street, in the Dublin City Library and Archive, and is stll there; this information is in a note recently added to the article. Brianboulton (talk) 18:47, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Nelson's head

From here (photo on Flickr): "The head of the statue ended up in the The original head of Nelson's Pillar is now housed in the Reading Room in the Dublin City Library and Archive. Admiral Nelson's head is on exhibition to the public free of charge along with papers and original archives on Nelson's Pillar. The head was moved from the old Dublin Civic Museum." This could be noted in the article plus a photo if one can be obtained. Carcharoth (talk) 15:00, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Plus details of the story of the head here. Carcharoth (talk) 15:14, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Enough about the head already included. Brianboulton (talk) 16:41, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Nelson's Pillar, Commemorative Event

From Dublin City Council website: "The 50th anniversary of the destruction of Nelson's Pillar occurs on Tuesday, 8th March. Dublin City Archives are holding a commemorative event entailing a talk by historian Donal Fallon, poetry read by Alastair Smeaton, and songs by Francis Devine." Carcharoth (talk) 15:07, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Entrance gates

Some pictures of the remnants of the column are here (Old Dublin Town website). The gates are apparently in a drainage depot in Ringsend. Carcharoth (talk) 16:03, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Inscriptions and memorial plaque

I added this note about the inscriptions on the monument. It is currently only a note, while the text of the memorial plaque is more visible in the article. It was the inscriptions themselves that were more visible to those viewing the monument, so possibly the text of the inscriptions should be in the main body of the article?

A couple of points:

• The memorial plaque itself was fixed to the foundation stone, but was it visible to those visiting the memorial? I thought not, but the article states that the plaque was discovered following excavations in 2001 and "the subterranean entrance to the pillar had been replaced by one at street level in 1894". Was it possible that people entering this subterranean entrance would have seen this plaque and the foundation stone?

• No help from the sources, I'm afraid. It would be odd to hide a plaque with such orotund wording – though I don't remember seeing it when I visited the Pillar as a kid in 1965. Maybe it got hidden when the entrance was rebuilt in the 1890s? But that's only a guess. Brianboulton (talk) 17:23, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

• If you look at early pictures, such as File:DUBLIN(1811) p202 NELSON'S PILLAR.jpg, there are railings there, and 'Nile' on the north side and 'Trafalgar' on the south side (but adjacent to each other, so the artist has taken liberties there). In the background is probably the Rotunda Hospital in the area that would become Parnell Square. Not sure where this subterranean entrance was. In File:DUBLIN(1837) p089 NELSON'S PILLAR, SACKVILLE STREET.jpg you see "Trafalgar" and the date clearly inscribed there on the south side (a crop of this would be suitable for illustrating the inscription if that was needed). None of the other pictures, except File:XXI OCTOBER MDCCCV (8636135413).jpg show the inscriptions clearly.
• The transcription of the memorial plaque may not be 100% accurate (I assume the uppercasing is from Kennedy, 2013?). Either the 1818 source is wrong or the 2013 source is. The 1818 source here has some strange spelling errors (e.g. 'Transcendent' vs 'Transcendant' and 'Achievements' vs 'Atchievements' and 'Admiral' vs 'Amiral'). Those are surely just errors by the 1818 source (which I remember seeing somewhere is not entirely reliable as it didn't get the architect right for a start), but some are a bit less certain: 'Duke of Bronti' vs 'Duke of Bronte' (Bronte is the correct spelling, but maybe 'Bronti' is an acceptable spelling used then?); also 'This first stone' vs 'The first stone'; and 'Triumphal' vs 'Triumphant'. Also, the 2013 source ends the quote with a bit about the subscribers, while the 1818 source ends at 'George the Third'. I suppose going with the 2013 source is best here.

Is the list of subscribers available in the sources? Carcharoth (talk) 00:17, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

• "Bronti" is clearly an alternate spelling: see here, for example. The other misspellings and weirdities I'm inclined to think are errors in the 1818 version, since Fallon gives the same wording as Kennedy. There is no full list of subscribers in the sources, though a few are mentioned. I may add a footnote with some of the more notable names. Brianboulton (talk) 17:23, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Harp and Crown and tramways

Couple of comments about the current version of the article:

• "some businesses considered the Pillar to be the city's focal point, and the tramway company petitioned for its retention" - do sources say if this was the Dublin United Transport Company?
• Name of company not mentioned. Brianboulton (talk) 16:22, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
• I read somewhere that the Pillar was a tramway stop. Some of the pictures on Commons show these tramways, though only with the Pillar in the background. Is it worth adding something about this to the article? Were later bus-stops named for the Pillar?

  It was indeed a major terminus – I've tweaked the sentence to clarify this. There will be a further reference to the tram aspect in the "Cultural refs" section, using a passage from Ulysses. Brianboulton (talk) 16:22, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

  Of passing interest may be a 1910 tramway sign: File:DUTC tram routes early C20.jpg. Nelson's Pillar mentioned six times there. No room in this article for that, or indeed for the advert here from 1896, but will add those to the Commons gallery. Carcharoth (talk) 20:39, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

• There is a sentence "on the many banners hung in his honour he was depicted defending the Harp and Crown". Does this need explaining as a reference to Ireland and the British Crown? Not all readers will understand this.

• I'm sure most will, but clarified anyway. Brianboulton (talk) 16:22, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

May add other comments here later. Carcharoth (talk) 14:35, 13 March 2016 (UTC)