Talk:NewJeans/Archive 1

Archive 1

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Classification of bsides/singles

Should "Ditto" and "New Jeans" be considered bsides or singles? While both have only been described by ADOR as tracks, I'm not sure if they can be considered as such since they have been/will be released on streaming platforms before the album. In particular for "Ditto", some sources, mostly Korean, describe it only as a track (The Korea Herald Korea JoongAng Daily, The Korea Times), while other sources call it a single (Billboard, Teen Vogue). "Ditto" is also not marked as a single on Melon. Personally, I think both should be considered promotional singles despite the marketing but I wanted to ask here in case there's a guideline/consensus I'm not aware of and to get more opinions. Poirot09 (talk) 23:20, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Both should be classified as regular singles (as it is now). ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 23:39, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

@Nkon21 Agreed for "Ditto", but I think that "New Jeans", which right now is not under singles, should be included as a bside or a promotional single, since all sources (The Korea Herald, NME) have made a clear distinction between the three singles from Get Up – "Super Shy", "Cool with You" and "ETA" – and the track. It will be released with "Super Shy", so it might be considered a bside in a single release, and it has been promoted mostly as a collaboration with The Powerpuff Girls brand. Poirot09 (talk) 08:14, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Ah yes, I meant that "Super Shy", "Cool with You" and "ETA" along with "Ditto" should remain as singles, while "New Jeans" should be classified as a b-side (listed under "other charted songs" if it charts). Just because it has a MV doesn't mean it's a single of any sort. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 17:05, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

South Korean descriptor

Is the descriptor "South Korean" accurate? ADOR and 3 members are South Korean, but Hanni and Danielle are Australian. Danielle has one Korean parent. Hanni has Vietnamese parents. For the time being, I am moving the descriptor to ADOR. Travelmite (talk) 15:22, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

@Travelmite Yes it's accurate, "South Korean" refers to the group's origins not referring to the members' origins, this is consistent with other South Korean groups (regardless of male/female/combined) unless WP:RSes otherwise and/or with WP:CONSENSUS exception. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 16:12, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

This does not follow standard use of language and is misleading. A group is a collection of people. A group of workers from various countries who form up in Korea is not called a Korean group of workers. Travelmite (talk) 10:24, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

@Travelmite Not sure where you gotten this misconception. However, if you're unhappy with how the convention are, then go to WT:KO to gain WP:CONSENSUS instead since this isn't the only South Korean's group (regardless of male/female/combined) article following the convention. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 10:37, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

WT:KO would only be relevant to South Korean groups. Where is the WP:CONSENSUS that says everyone in K-pop is Korean? Travelmite (talk) 10:44, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

@Travelmite I'm not going to argue with you, WT:KO is your option only available for South Korean-related groups in which this group is regardless of whatever misconception you had in your mind. In which, you don't have any WP:CONSENSUS to change at this point of time, continuing doing so despite objection will be considered as signs of disruptive editing. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 10:47, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Please do not continue Wikipedia:Edit_warring and repeated revert as it is considered disruptive. To describe a group from two countries as being from one country is obviously misleading. There is no WP:CONSENSUS for doing this on WP:KO or anywhere else. If, I am incorrect about this, please link below where the consensus was made. Your concern that people should know the group was formed in South Korea is addressed by stating that the group was formed in South Korea. If your only objection that you don't understand, then please take the time do so. Travelmite (talk) 11:00, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

@Poirot09 @Nkon21 @PepeBonus @Lightoil @Btspurplegalaxy Pinging other active editors contributing to South Korean-related articles. What is your thoughts on the above initial question? — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 11:04, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Paper9oll that the description is accurate. Lightoil (talk) 11:13, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm afraid to point out that User:Paper9oll has made three reverts within 24 hours, which is WP:edit warring. You are best advised to undo the third revert. If you are calling people now, after the fact, there was no original consensus to rely upon. Calling specific people knowing they'll support your view is Wikipedia:Canvassing. Obviously most K-pop groups are South Korean groups, but some groups have people from other countries. They say a group is South Korean, is to say they are all South Korean. Travelmite (talk) 11:18, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

@Travelmite Maybe you should read 3RR again, you're free to proceed with 4RR and above, I'm going to drink coffee instead. And also, pinging other editors is called WP:SEEKHELP 🤦‍♂️. And to reiterate, you don't have any consensus to change as of now. And to give few examples, if we're following your misconception logic by going against the convention, then other groups for example active ones like (G)I-dle, Got7, NCT, WJSN, Seventeen, Twice, Kep1er, Aespa, Treasure, Everglow, Le Sserafim, Blackpink, Secret Number, and many more should also be changed which good luck with that. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 11:27, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

It's not my logic. If those other groups are South Korean, then perhaps it is because the people in them are South Koreans. Hanni is not South Korean by ethnicity, birth nor nationality. To make the implication she is Korean, just to avoid writing a more accurately phrased opening, does not make sense. Travelmite (talk) 11:38, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

@Travelmite Clearly stated that you don't have consensus to change in which me and Lightoil (via WP:SEEKHELP ping) had objected to it above and despite that you boldly proceed with 4RR (wow ... you impress me) with this diff which clearly shows that you're exhibiting signs of disruptive editing and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. The only foreign members in NewJeans is Hanni Danielle (instead of Hanni) in which the same applies for the examples I provided above which consists of either 1 to 3 foreign members (with exception for NCT), this clearly shows that your argument make zero sense as NewJeans consists of 4 South Korean-born members out of the total 5 members in which member's origins doesn't matters here as the convention i.e. the examples provided above is based on the group's origins ... maybe you should go disruptively change the origin in the Infobox also based on your "it's not my logic". — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 11:42, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I thank you for allowing a discussion of the article and what is best for the reader. You may not be aware that Hanni Pham (or Phạm Ngọc Hân) was born in Melbourne and her parents are from Vietnam (see [1]. Danielle Marsh's parents are from South Korea and Australia. Yes, the others three members are from South Korea. None of this is included in the article. I'm afraid it is too easy to conclude that NewJeans has 4 South Koreans or all South Korean, so I hope you now understand my genuine concern. Travelmite (talk) 12:06, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

@Travelmite My stance remains the same as above. I'm not going to reply further (unless necessary with ambiguity applies) as I had already said whatever I wanted to say. As of this reply, there are no consensus to change the convention here and also followed by the 13 examples I provided above as far I'm aware of. Adiós! — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 12:15, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

It's is quite simple. If the group was formed by a South Korean company in South Korea, then the group is South Korean. It doesn't matter if the members have different ethnicities; basically 50% of all K-pop groups have at least 1 foreign member. You have no consensus to make this sort of change. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 12:20, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

The 50% figure is entirely incorrect. Of course, it matters. If a music group was formed in South Korea then that is what should be written. Equally, a group of South Koreans can form anywhere and remain South Korean. Since the above responses are a result of WP:Canvassing, I have taken this question to WikiProject Music: (see [2]) Travelmite (talk) 12:50, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

The exact amount is not important—the point is that there is a large number of groups in the K-pop industry that have foreign members and it would not make sense to remove "South Korean group" on each of their articles just because there is a "non-Korean" member for reasons already highlighted. For your information, pinging editors who frequently contribute to the article your discussing is not a violation of WP:CANVASSING. Instead, I suggest you keep an eye on WP:FORUMSHOPPING. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 14:22, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Paper9oll was openly canvassing by saying "Pinging other active editors contributing to South Korean-related articles." In other words, he pinged those editors mostly likely to support the notion that everything under the K-pop banner should be described as South Korean. Travelmite (talk) 08:23, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Travelmite, Paper9oll is male as stated on his user page please don't misgender him. Lightoil (talk) 08:43, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

@Travelmite Personal attacks, I didn't expect that. Shall we go to WP:ANI? — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 08:47, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

I've corrected the word written in error. Travelmite (talk) 09:29, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

I came across this discussion at WT:MUSIC. I searched for groups and bands not based in South Korea with international members and found no consistency between these articles. The Band, Stereolab, and Fleetwood Mac use hyphenated nationalities, while Galaxie 500, Can, The Velvet Underground use a single nationality. Personally, the use of "South Korean" seems fine to me. Even the English-language edition of Yonhap News refers to them as a South Korean group [3]. I'm not seeing a particularly strong case against the status quo. ✗plicit 13:33, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. All the members of Galaxie 500 are individually described as American. The introduction to Can makes clear the group used vocalists from different countries. So 5 examples of accurate introductions against one The Velvet Underground which arguably could mention one founding member was Welsh. I didn't insert a hyphenated nationality. I changed "South Korean group" to "group formed in South Korea", because that does not imply every member is South Korean. Which is more accurate? Travelmite (talk) 14:03, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

The group was formed in South Korea and reliable sources consider them a South Korean group, so I'd say the descriptor is accurate. If needed, specifics about the members' origins could be included in the pre-debut section for now. Poirot09 (talk) 15:53, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Reliable sources, such as Yonhap News Agency, write "The five-piece multinational group debuted Monday under the label ADOR" [4]. The Korea Herald says "the multinational group was brought together by Ador’s CEO" [5]. So, the argument that reliable sources consider them a South Korean group is not valid. Keep in mind, this is arguing against an edit which is indisputably accurate, in favour of one which is creating confusion. We already see in the comments above an editor incorrectly believing 4 of the 5 members are South Korean, and someone else believing that 50% of K-pop groups have foreign members. The phrase "formed in South Korea" is not inaccurate, so I suspect the underlying issue is WP:OWN. Since the primary objective is ensuring the reader is not mislead, and that the multinational formation of the group is being reverted, I will take the opportunity to insert information in the pre-debut section as suggested. Travelmite (talk) 02:55, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

In accordance with Wikipedia standards, the most appropriate designation would be to refer to the group as a South Korean one. This label remains consistent regardless of the individual nationalities of its members due to several key reasons. Primarily, the group resides in Korea and possesses fluency in the Korean language, among other factors. In the broader context of the K-Pop industry, it is customary to describe groups as South Korean, irrespective of their diverse origins. Btspurplegalaxy 💬 🖊️ 07:09, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Firstly, can you point to these standards of Wikipedia? How does residency or language skill make someone Korean, rather than a grantee of a working visa? Who has sighted the member's passports? Regarding the final claim, customary implies an unquestioned habit; and "K-pop group" is the term reverted out. This explanation proves the ambiguity created by saying "South Korean group", because a group of Americans who formed and perform jazz in South Korea, would apparently be South Korean. Travelmite (talk) 09:43, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Should "web shows" be included in the filmography section?

I've recently noticed that many articles about South Korean groups include "web shows" in the filmography section. These often aren't actual series, just serialized promotional material that groups publish on YouTube during or between promotions. For this article, they don't seem particularly notable, so I'm unsure if they should be listed, especially things like vlogs. Poirot09 (talk) 17:50, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

It needs to be removed. Btspurplegalaxy 💬 🖊️ 21:49, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

If serialised promotional materials shouldn't be listed, should they be removed from all those other groups as well? If it is fine to list them there, why not leave them here as it is? Do forgive me if there are guidelines somewhere for these, but the fact that it's inconsistent with the other groups bothers me. Even if promotional materials and vlogs shouldn't be listed, "Jeans' Zine" and "NewZips" are actual variety/reality shows, so they should still be listed? Chyx1095 (talk) 17:36, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

@Chyx1095 WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Personally, I think the others are still promotional materials and not particularly notable as I haven't seen any info on production/broadcast/reception like any other notable web series. Poirot09 (talk) 14:13, 7 February 2024 (UTC)