Talk:New Jersey English/Archive 1

"New York City area" subheading

I'm fairly sure "scallion," "seltzer," "sneakers," and "stoop" are not local slang. I live in NC and these terms are all common here, especially "scallion" and "sneakers." Maybe someone else could verify this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.110.21.120 (talk) 09:08, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Rationale

I have established this page, which moves the NJ related information from the previous New York-New Jersey English article, now renamed NY Dialect because it was an unnatural marriage, and NJ deserves its own article. I hope readers are satisfied with the change. mnewmanqc 02:33, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

"Joisey"

This article gives the pronunciation of the faux-New Jersey "Joisey" as [dʒɒɪzi], with a middle vowel of [ɒɪ]. However, I was under the belief that this middle vowel was actually supposed to be [ɜɪ], as in the old New York dialect pronunciation of "bird" or "oil". Was I mistaken in conflating these two, or is this merely a case of differing transcriptions of the same vowel? -Chinju 02:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Since the [ɜɪ] has largely dropped out of NY Dialect, it's production in "Joisey" is largely stylized. The more frequent and spontaneous production is would be the more frequent [ɒɪ]. However, either would do, and both could be incorporated in the article as far as I'm concerned.mnewmanqc 12:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

"Jersey"

Unless someone can provide a source verifying that many people from New Jersey are offended by the use of "Jersey" without the "New," I'm going to delete it. It's a pretty redicilous claim; no one in New Jersey would be offended. --Descendall 04:10, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it says "the use of the bare term Jersey is common in New York City, although it may also be a mistaken attempt by non-New Jersey residents to use what they believe to be the local term." I'm from New Jersey born and raised and use the bare term from time to time. Does that make me any less Jersey?....sorry, New Jersey? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.149.236.86 (talk) 07:42, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

For what it's worth, I've been "corrected" for saying it a couple times. "You wouldn't say you are from York, would you?" and I've heard other people from "Jersey'" saying something like "they weren't offended by it," implying that it was understood that others were. Of course all this is anecdotal. On the other hand, someone once made an edit eliminating the some and leaving it as if it was generally understood to be offensive. Also, some, presumably annoyed Jerseyite put it in in the first place. Still, I know of no references to that fact, so it could be deleted. mnewmanqc 17:30, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't you mean New Jerseyite? Out of curiosity, which part of NJ were these people who corrected you from? Kevin Smith, who seems to be overly in love with the fact that he's a Jersey boy, calls the state simply Jersey from time to time. And it is Jersey Boy, I've never heard New Jersey Boy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.149.236.86 (talk) 09:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

So now it says "Some lower class residents of the New York metropolitan area use the term Jersey to refer to the state as a whole. Elsewhere in the state it is seldom heard." While this isn't as false as the previous remarks that claim NJers getting offended by the term Jersey, I myself am from Central New Jersey and use the term all the time, as do my friends. It is used in certain contexts more than others, and in certain areas more than others, but it is my no means "seldom" heard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.105.11.210 (talk) 20:10, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

One was from New Brunswick, another Ho-Ho-Kus. Of course, it is interesting in compounds that the New disappears, most famously in Jersey City. However, consistency is not a hallmark of getting offended.mnewmanqc 13:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know where you're getting your information from, but this appears to be guesswork. My father's family comes from north-eastern New Jersey -- three generations were raised in Bayonne -- and none of them ever talked like that. Neither did any of their neighbors, once my grandparents moved into a neighborhood where some Italians lived. I'm an alumnus of Stevens, and I never heard anything NYC-like in Hoboken either, not even at Benny Tudino's. (The best pizza place in town.) The accent they did have was very distinct from anything heard in New York with the possible exception of Staten Island. I suppose one might come to this conclusion based on a general unfamiliarity with a Brooklyn accent, but I assure you they're not the same.

Nor have I ever heard "guido" being used as an ethnic slur for Italians, although I admit my familiarity with the region's slang is about 20 years out of date.

The term "guido" has been used for years, but the idea that it is a slur is a revisionist spin indicative of our present identity politics driven era. A guido has historically meant someone who prefers dance oriented music to rock, is very high maintenance fashion wise, and into machismo posturing. A guido could be any ethnicity, but it definitely has its roots in the Italian-American community (as the name suggests). I never heard anyone suggest it was a slur until MTV floated the idea of having a reality TV shown called "Guido Beach", at which point various self appointed Italian-American identity politics organizations cries foul, at which point "Guido Beach" was renamed "Jersey Shore". — Preceding unsigned comment added by CannotFindAName (talk • contribs) 20:21, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Accents heard from media originating in New York uses a neutral mid-American accent as does most media everywhere else in the country. You're not going to pick up an accent from it. Besides, if that had anything to do with it you'd have heard the same accent everywhere reached primarily by NYC media, and this is clearly not the case. Accents shift greatly when you travel just a few miles down the coast. My mother's family from Elizabeth spoke nothing like my father's family. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

How about in Essex County alone? I grew up in Montclair and I have a negligible Jersey accent, but people in Clifton had a distinct Jersey accent that was different than the Jersey accent people had in Nutley...and these towns border each other. I agree that the inclusion of this sentence is ridiculous. I use "Jersey" all the time and I challenge anyone from Hohokus to challenge my "Jerseyness"...whatever the hell that means. I'm going to remove the phrase. JHMM13 05:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

"New Jersey English" does not exist

I am afraid a serious mistake was made in splitting this article off from New York dialect. The "New York" does not refer to the state, but to the city and its metropolitan area, of which North Jersey is clearly a part. The state of New Jersey does not "deserve" its own article; the state of New York does not have one either. Our articles are about specific dialects, not geography. Some of the dialects of South Jersey may deserve their own articles elsewhere, but there is no coherent concept of "New Jersey English".--Pharos 03:50, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

That point is made in the article. The problem is that NY-NJ English invites people to write about all the various dialects spoken in NJ in the same article as the single dialect of NYC, which includes only a tiny portion of NJ. That left an incoherent article. Rather than simply eliminating the non-NYC dialect parts of the NJ English portion, I moved the NJ article to a different spot. Perhaps the name "Dialects of New Jersey" would be better, but as you point out the state is not a coherent dialect region and so perhaps it does not deserve its own article. I'm not sure what the solution is, but joining it back to NY certainly is not helpful. mnewmanqc 14:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, we don't have any other "dialects by US state" articles and the existence of this article (included on Template:English dialects by continent) is highly misleading to people not knowledgeable about the situation. I suggest we just put a statement on NY-NJ English that "This article describes the dialect of the New York metropolitan area in downstate New York and northern New Jersey. For dialects spoken in other parts of these states, see American English regional differences.", and then we can merge other info on other dialects in New Jersey there. Also I think the "North Jersey accent", though somewhat distinct, should be discussed at the NY-NJ English page because it's clearly part of something larger.--Pharos 02:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a useful discussion. I want to separate out the arguments I see for not remerging the pages (then again, I'm the one who separated them in the first place):

First the name: No one calls the dialect NY-NJ English in the professional literature, as far as I'm aware. It's New York Dialect. Also, since the NY (in the name) is the city not state, if we include NJ, then there are no grounds for excluding Long Island, Westchester, Rockland, etc. And that would be a mouthful. We really would have to name the page, NY English (I'd prefer NY Dialect, but I'm not going to go around changing it). That excludes NJ completely, and we just have the page deleted.

Second the extent: NY dialect is related to all surrounding dialects, Eastern LI, Connecticut, Hudson Valley, and Northern NJ west of the NY dialect region is no exception. But I don't think that particular dialect (or set of dialects) is more closely related to NY than to Northeastern PA. I'd have to look at an atlas, but I don't think there are any solid grounds for joining it up to NY English. In particular, a number of highly salient features of NY English including /r/ dropping and the short a split seem to stop at the traditional border of the dialect area. Even the word "hero" drops out somewhere east of Wayne.

Third, what would happen to all the southern Jersey discussion? Following the same logic, it could be joined to the Philadelphia accent page, but last I'm not sure how far the Philadelphia dialect region extends there. How do the Pine Barrens relate?

Here's one possibility: Create a North Jersey English page, and merge the South Jersey part with Philadelphia. I'm not sure how accurate the Pine Barrens reference is in any case. I'm also not sure how Cape May fits in.

Another possibility: Keep as is, on the justification that many people believe that there is such a thing as NJ English. Then, the page would serve if nothing else to dispel that idea. mnewmanqc 03:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your first point about the name; but I don't see how there would be a problem with an article called "New York Dialect" also covering part of New Jersey– this would just be something to explain in the article.

Perhaps there is a "broad definition" of New York Dialect throughout the metro area as well as a narrow one. Because it would be impractical to develop an article on Hudson Valley speech for example, I suggest we might go with a broad definition of New York Dialect if that is applicable. Subjectively, I hear relatively little difference between Northern NJ and NYC speech; perhaps you could recheck your atlas.

I would say South Jersey accents that are broadly Philadelphian should be merged. I don't know much about the Pine Barrens accent; if it's an oddball and not closely related to larger dialects I suggest just describing it at American English regional differences.

If your search of academic sources (you probably have a better library than I do) does indeed show that North Jersey dialect is as distinct from NY dialect as it is from other regional dialects, then I would support a North Jersey page.--Pharos 04:13, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I need to get the Linguistic Atlas of North America for my class on Monday. It's on CD-ROM. I'll do a grab of NJ out of that and send it to you. I'd like to be able to put it in the article, but I have no desire to deal with the permissions. My suspicion is that either you're hearing transplants from the NY dialect region or that the people are still in the region. I don't think if you go west along Rt. 80, you need to get very far to start hearing those final /r/s. mnewmanqc 18:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I've looked at the Labov, Ash, and atlas. I'd like to post a cutout of the .tiff file here, but I don't know how to do it. Basically, it divides the state into four regions. One, is NYC, the other Phila. The Phila region doe not extend to the Atlantic coast. East of there, they had no informants, and it's just left blank. West of the NYC region, and north of the Phila region, again there are either no speakers, or one who shows Phila dialect features. However, this is where Labov is from, and they simply seem to have annexed it along with far Eastern PA to the broad Northern Dialect region. That includes Hudson Valley (north of the NYC region), Western New England, and the whole Northern Cities Shift region as well as an undefined area. The NJ-Eastern Penn area is included in this region. If someone can tell me the instructions for posting a picture, I'll do that. The upshot is that I can see no easy solution for any partition of NJ English among the various dialect regions that compose it. mnewmanqc 00:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I think this shows a workable approach for dealing with American English dialects. As I see it, there are a number of reasonably well-defined (and well-studied) dialects that deserve their own articles; these are usually centered in one place but have boundaries are ambiguous. There are also many areas that show some irregularity of pronunciation, or that have some otherwise ambiguous dialect status. These ambiguous areas should be touched on in the relevant "well-defined dialect" articles, and their geography should be discussed at American English regional differences (which ideally should have a detailed section for every state). What do you think of this approach?--Pharos 02:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I suggest we refer this discussion to the language reference desk. I agree with Pharos that really goes to the heart of the issue of how to organize dialect pages, not even for the US but for all English dialects, which is one reason to do so.

I see two problems that I think can be overcome but only if there's a consensus and finally a policy.

One reason for the policy involves what might be called "enthusiasts." I suspect the NJ page was first joined or started with the NY Dialect page because people were interested in New Jersey not out of a desire to provide a coherent reference for a US English dialect but out of enthusiasm for New Jersey. Language is seen as an extension of local pride. We've seen a lot of contributions that reflect that motivation on this article and other dialect articles. Enthusiasts will resent and respond to any reorganization that they feel diminishes what they feel enthusiastic about, with a potential for edit wars.

Another issue involves the state of our knowledge. The most up-to-date overview of European American varieties of North American English is the Labov, Ash, and Boberg Atlas, just out. It is an excellent reference, but it is not as comprehensive as one might think. The authors had finite resources and time, and the data was obtained from telephone surveys to gather speech samples from 2+ participants in urban and suburban areas. Rural areas were not really examined. This doesn't really matter much in most of the country, but in the East, there are a number of dialects that get missed. If and only if that region was subject of detailed sociolinguistic study will anything much be known about it. So, for example, various Atlantic islands are well studied, as is much of southern Appalachia, but northern Appalachia is not, except Western New England which is not culturally Appalachia anyway. No one has studied those areas as far as I know. All this is to say that it might not be that northwestern New Jersey and the Jersey shore may not have ambiguous boundaries, but that no one knows where the isoglosses, that form the boundaries, should go. .

My suggestion t herefore is that we see if anyone at the language reference desk has anything to say about this, and if no one objects, I'll do that or someone else can tomorrow. mnewmanqc 14:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, that seems reasonable. If we're going to develop a policy, it's probably going to have to be through a Wikipedia:WikiProject on American English dialects or maybe English dialects more broadly. Wikipedia:WikiProject United States regions I've noticed has brought some rationality to another subject that can be tainted by local boosterism.--Pharos 15:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'm putting it in there. BTW, here's a page that's open and somewhat different from the atlas itself, but it's from Labov's site. [[1]]. Notice, that there's not a single informant in NJ outside Trenton, making it all speculative.mnewmanqc 22:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

This page is honestly as about wrong as it gets when it comes to the Northeast New Jersey accent. Where are the mentions of pronouncing coffee as "cawfee", or the shared expressions with New York City such as "how's it goin" as a rhetorical greeting?

mnewmanqc, you've really done a sloppy job here. Northeast New Jersey English (which is spoken in the entire New York metro area, which includes Passaic, Hudson, and Essex counties) shares a lot of the same lexicon and pronunciation with New York City, but with some very distinct differences (rhotic, etc., except amongst the older urban Italians, etc.). You cannot create an accent page for a single state when the state itself has many different distinct accents. No, I'm not a "state booster" - I'm a New York City resident, Brooklyn born, and I recognized that this page is really, really poorly done.

Either remove this page, or rewrite it to reflect how the dialects really are in full. and no, linguistics books from 1984 -do not count-. Please update your sources, I'm sure there are new versions - you can't even get away with sources that old in Freshman year of college.

Ad hominem attacks (particularly from anonymous unregistered users) are poor substitutes for constructive criticism. No, this is not "my page." I haven't even objected to earlier proposals for its removal. If you want to make a serious contribution, pls follow the procedures for its removal. As for comments here and in the NYC Dialect page on the similarities between Northern NJ and NYC, follow your own advice on sources, oh and sign your contributions to talk pages. This is my one and only response to any further anonymous comments on this thread. mnewmanqc 21:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

--- Where I live in northeast NJ there is no difference between a NY accent as it is described on its respective page and the way my family speaks or I speak. It is, in fact, non rhotic, and does have the short a split, which are mentioned as differences here. This article should be changed, or deleted, especially because the NY dialect mentions North Jersey in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.236.100 (talk) 02:53, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

--- Nobody ever says "New Jersey English." Also, why do we call it a dialect? Can it be said that New Jersey has a distinct vocbulary and grammar? It's just a regional accent like the Boston accent. I would suggest renaming it "New Jersey accent" and linking it to the section called American English regional differences. Thefactis (talk) 19:38, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

If you look at this page, you would see that there have been a lot of discussions about making fundamental changes or even deleting the article. In favor of deleting, it is true that there is no NJ dialect or even NJ accent (which is just the phonological level of the dialect). (BTW, having just phonological differences is enough to justify two speech varieties different dialects). NJ is split among several dialects, including NY, Phila, and a northern rural form which probably extends well into PA and possibly north into NYS. A Piney dialect region may exist, or may not. I know of no research on it, just a claim made on this page. Similar situations exist in many other states—Ohio is divided into three or four major dialect regions for example—and there are no dialect pages for them.

In favor of maintaining this article, there exists a perception that there is a New Jersey dialect at least more than there is a perception that there is, say, an "Ohio dialect" or "Colorado dialect" or "Arizona dialect" (or Ohio, Colorado, or Arizona "accent"). So people who are curious can look it up and find out some more accurate information on the dialectal (non)status of the state. However, the fact that there is no NJ Dialect, and so no NJ accent, means that naming the page NJ Dialect or NJ accent would be highly misleading. I think English spoken in New Jersey would be the most accurate name. However, if you want to nominate the article for deletion on the grounds of non-existence, be my guest. We'll see how it turns out. mnewmanqc (talk) 21:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I did not advocate deleting this article. I advocate renaming it so that the name better corresponds with popular usage and reality: Of course there is a New Jersey accent. Listen to former NJ governor James McGreevey, for instance. Or to television personality Monica Crowley. Or General H. Norman Schwarzkopf. They all spent their formative years in NJ, and have excellent NJ accents. But thanks for letting me know about the low threshhold for a dialect.Thefactis (talk) 00:12, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a good discussion, I think. The background to the problem is this: There is relatively less understanding of dialect borders than one might think if you haven't studied sociolinguistics or dialectology in depth. In some cases, such as NYC and Phila, there is a really good sense of what the dialect consists of and where and who the speakers are. However, the major recent dialect mapping work, the Atlas of North American English, concentrated on urban areas and had really quite few speakers per area, which makes drawing limits quite complicated. (This isn't a criticism because the project would have soon become unmanageable without these limits.) Also, if you look at isoglosses in traditional dialect maps, you will see that in many cases dialects fade into each other making dialect boundaries hard to pinpoint.

However, my main argument is this. is that there are, as the article states, several different dialects spoken in the state, and it's not at all clear that there is any single dialect unique to the state, and if there is it is probably in the Pines, and it would hardly be considered representative. My feeling is that the title of the article needs to reflect those facts. I would change it to Dialects of New Jersey if I made any change at all, but I don't feel strongly enough about the issue to do anything about it. My question is how do others feel? mnewmanqc (talk) 08:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree with you here. The title "New Jersey English" gives the misleading impression that there's a single dialect known as "New Jersey English". AJD (talk) 13:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if the lack of a single dialect of "New Jersey English" has anything to do with the recent incursion of Hispanic immigrants such as Puerto Ricans into the state (in which case it might be displaced by some castellano), along with Indians and other newcomers. 204.52.215.107 (talk) 01:46, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The dialect diversity goes way back. It's related to the existence of two different dialects at each end of the state at NY and Philly and also settlement by speakers of neither in other areas. There is no reason for dialect boundaries to conform to political ones. mnewmanqc (talk) 15:34, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

But there is a New Jersey accent

Naturally in any large population you'll find several different accents -- especially if you include folks from other countries, recent arrivals from other states, and those who live in cultural ghettos. But they're hardly representative.

To find the accent typical of NJ, we must look at the dominant culture, which is 50% to 80% of NJ, by various measures. Then we need to concentrate on the natives, lifers, and especially those who spent their formative years in NJ, and were exposed to popular speech.

When you do that, it becomes plain that there is a NJ accent. You hear it in its purest form in the central part of the state, but it's common elsewhere, too.

Of course there are New York and Philadelphia regional influences, and naturally they're stronger in the inner suburbs, but at the root is the New Jersey accent. (Perhaps the reason many people have missed this is that most observers hail from one of those cities, so they tend naturally to approach the topic from a certain perspective? That is not meant as a criticism.)

As for the other alleged dialects, I would like to see sources. The fact that some people in the Pine Barrens have a special way of pronouncing the word "house" cannot alone suffice. Is the accent of Ocean really so different from that of Monmouth? And I am most curious to see evidence of a distinct Jersey Shore accent. If there is one, then you're arguing for at least three dialects in Ocean County alone (Shore, Piney, and the other one). Do not the vast majority of mainstream natives of Ocean County in fact use approximately the same New Jersey accent? Any sources to the contrary?Thefactis (talk) 14:12, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you on the Pine Barrens, but the issue you identify is problematic for the changes you are proposing. The major dialectological work, the Labov, et al. ANAE does not show an exclusive dialect for the state but instead shows that outside the small NY dialect region and extensive Phila one, there is continuity with Eastern PA (outside of Philadelphia) and possibly southeastern NYS outside of the NY dialect area. Therefore, there's no basis I am aware of to make a claim about a New Jersey accent in the literature, and since we're supposed to rely on citations of research here, there's no basis for a NJ dialect. On that point, it may be trivial, but Labov himself is from northern New Jersey, so you can't blame New Yorkers or Philadelphians. That's not to say you are wrong on the facts. It's just there is a deficit of research, and it is really problematic to make claims on informal perceptions. You can see that in the claim made on the Pine Barrens. Someone simply noticed something, and added it into the article. It should really be removed. There's a need for basic dialectological research in the state. mnewmanqc (talk) 16:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

---

Are you saying that Labove has ruled out the possibility of a NJ accent, or simply hasn't isolated it? Or are you referring to his statement that some folks in north eastern NJ (e.g., the character Tony Soprano) speak Brooklynese?

I think we can agree that everybody who speaks must speak with some accent or other, right? That must include folks in NJ. Putting aside the small part of NJ where Labove says the New York accent is heard, and the small part under a strong Philly influence, what do we call the accent that is most prevalent in most of New Jersey? (Especially central, south eastern, and north western regions.)

Is it Standard American English? Some broad regional accent, with traces of NY and Philadelphia? If it's essentially the same as the accent in central and north eastern Pa., then what's that accent called? (My college library didn't have the Atlas so I'm going to order it.)

Whatever you call that accent, it's far more representative of NJ than the NY accent is of NY, and may be used by as many people as a far greater percentage of NJ residents are home grown Americans of European descent and as such more likely to have the local accent.

Thefactis (talk) 00:19, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the best thing you can do is try to look at the ANAE when your somewhere with a copy or see if your reference librarian can get temporary on-line access or something. It's very expensive to get the full package. I've heard Labov talk informally about his phonology. The question is how far his local patterns extend. For example, if someone from, say, Wayne, is indistinguishable from someone deep in Poconos and Montecello, but quite different from someone in Cape May or Perth Amboy, It would be hard to label the Wayne version New Jersey dialect. I'm not sure why you really want to have a New Jersey dialect or accent. Why would any dialect correspond to a politico-historical unit? Even languages in Europe don't necessarily. French is spoken in southern Belgium part of Switzerland and a valley in Italy, and historically it wasn't even spoken in these areas or even most of France. BTW, the Philly dialect area extends pretty far east if not all the way to the Ocean (I don't have the Atlas available). It's NY that has quite limited presence in New Jersey. mnewmanqc (talk) 07:45, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the real issue here is the lack of a proper citation for each statement in this article. I propose to delete each statement that is not properly supported within one week.Thefactis (talk) 21:12, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I was born in New York City in 1968, moved to Toms River, New Jersey in about 1970, and then to the Atlantic City area in about 1972, where I remained until 1983, when I returned to New York City. After graduating from Stuyvesant High School in 1986, I went to university in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, returned to the Atlantic City area for about two years, then moved to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1990. I remained in Philadelphia for seven years before moving to the New Jersey suburbs of Philadelphia, where I lived until 2009. Now I reside once again in the Atlantic City area, and my family is spread throughout the tri-state area, from Queens to Northern New Jersey to Philadelphia to South Jersey.

Although I cannot speak much for the accents and dialect of the people of Northern New Jersey, either those of the New York suburbs or those of the Northwestern rural areas, having little personal experience of them, I can say that there is most certainly a South Jersey accent that is distinct in many ways from both the Philadelphia and New York accents, but which is also as similar to the two of those as the two of those are to each other. As well, while many residents of the New Jersey Philadelphia suburbs would tell you they live in South Jersey, those of us who have lived for long periods of time in the Atlantic City to Cape May area would tell you that we don't consider the New Jersey Philadelphia suburbs to be properly South Jersey, and in fact, are likely to refer to anything from Hammonton (the approximate halfway point between Atlantic City and Philadelphia) all the way up to Camden as "Cherry Hill", and anything north of Long Beach Island as "North Jersey". In fact, I recall quite clearly referring to the Cherry Hill general area as "West Jersey" as a child, because my father was a physician who at one time worked at West Jersey Hospital in Voorhees.

One thing that struck me from the article is that the term "hoagie" is not generally used to describe a submarine sandwich. In South Jersey, a submarine sandwich is generally a "sub", and a "hoagie" is a sub with lettuce, onion, and tomato. This is why you will see the distinction between a cheesesteak sub and a cheesesteak hoagie on most menus in South Jersey. If you order a "cheesesteak sub" you will get steak and cheese, and they'll probably ask if you want onions. They may ask you if you want lettuce and tomato, too, just to make sure you didn't want a hoagie instead of a sub. If you order a "cheesesteak hoagie", you're definitely going to get lettuce, tomato, and onion along with your steak and cheese. There are also other dialect peculiarities. For one thing, any discussion of the dialect of the Atlantic and Cape May County shore areas would be incomplete without mentioning the term "shoobie", which is a semi-derogatory term the natives of the areas use to denote the hordes of summer vacationers that descend upon our beaches every summer.

I also find I am dissatisfied with the explanation of the pronunciation of "water". While it is true that many people pronounce it "wooder", I think it is also true that many people pronounce it "wauder" in this area. However, in South Jersey, we don't generally use such Philadelphia pronunciations as "addytude" for "attitude", "crown" for "crayon", or "Akamee" for "Acme" (a local supermarket chain). When we root for our football team, we root for the Eagles, not the "Iggles", as many in Philly would do, and I have never in my life heard anyone utter the word "Jawn", either in Philadelphia or South Jersey.

It is also worth mentioning that from Philadelphia to Atlantic City and points south, the term "Jersey Shore" means the Atlantic City to Cape May beach areas, and the majority of the visitors are from the Philadelphia area, where as in New York, the term "Jersey Shore" usually means the beach areas from Sandy Hook to Long Beach Island, and the majority of the visitors in that stretch hail from New York and points north. Long Beach Island is the place where the New York and Philadelphia markets mix, because there is a relatively direct highway route from Philadelphia to Long Beach Island, NJ State Route 72, which meets the Garden State Parkway at Manahawkin. This also marks the general dividing line between the Philadelphia and New York influences, and you can draw that line from Manahawkin straight up through Trenton. Everyone north of that line generally follows the New York market, and everyone south of it generally follows the Philadelphia market. As for Long Beach Island itself, people in the sphere of influence of Philadelphia generally refer to it as "LBI", whereas the New York types for the most part just say "Jersey Shore", unless they feel some particular need to distinguish their destination from the locales which have gained a less sophisticated reputation thanks to MTV.

It is true that both the New York and Philadelphia accents have heavily influenced the accents of New Jersey. New Jersey has very little broadcast media of its own, so our radio stations and television come, for the most part, from the New York and Philadelphia markets. Since this is what the children of New Jersey grow up hearing, it is no wonder that it has a significant effect.

One thing that people who have not spent significant amounts of time in the more southern extents of New Jersey may not realize is that in many ways, the local accent and dialect seems to also have a significant affinity with Southern English. We are, after all, below that part of the Mason-Dixon Line that makes up the border between Pennsylvania and Maryland, so in some ways, it is accurate to say that South Jersey really is part of The South. This is especially noticeable in the more rural parts of Salem, Cumberland, Gloucester, and Cape May Counties; that is, all the areas that are any significant distance from the beach areas and south of the Atlantic City Expressway, and once your hear the local speech, you won't doubt it.

Well, I've said enough for one sitting... yin-haan —Preceding undated comment added 01:48, 20 May 2011 (UTC).

Unfortunately, there is little systematic work on this area that I am aware of. It is impossible to create a reasonable summary here that is more than sketchy because Wikipedia does not rely on "original research" which is a nice way of saying un peer reviewed and usually anecdotal observations. That said, if you are interested enough to get published peer reviewed data. comb through it and fix up this article, look at Coye (2009) http://americanspeech.dukejournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/84/4/414 mnewmanqc (talk) 20:44, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

New Jersey Accent?

I'm sorry, but I grew up in NYC and lived in Jersey for years also and NJ does not have a noticeable accent; they speak more or less broadcaster English. But if they do have an accent, it js very subtle and is nothing like the "New Yawk" accent. People in New Jersey pronounce their Rs very strongly (unless they are NYC transplants)., New Yorkers drop their R. People not from the area have long assumed that people in Jersey talk like people in NYC (dropping the Rs), but they don't. We used to always joke that all of the Rs dropped in NY must've been picked up by New Jersey. Whenever I went I Jersey people would point out my bar dropping all the time. I'd calla car a "cah" and I'd immediately be told "NO! Not "kah", KARRRR!" This article makes no sense.

The Sopranos

An exaggerated version of this accent is spoken by many characters on the television series The Sopranos, the best example being mob boss Tony Soprano (who is played by New Jersey native James Gandolfini).

Didn't James Gandolfini, and most of the actors for that matter, speak with a New York accent on The Sopranos?

Most of the characters sound Brooklyn, Queens, or Nassau County to me, and some do in fact hail from those places. Gandolfini is a NJ native (Park Ridge in Bergen County, and certainly does have a type of NJ accent, but not the one he uses on the show (just listen to any interview.) The credits show that he used an accent coach. There certainly are people in NJ who talk like the characters on the Sopranos, but it's far from typical.Thefactis (talk) 12:27, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, James Gandolfini is a perfect example of how there is no NJ accent (or if there is one, it is nothing like the stereotypical, R-dropping 'New Yawk' accent). Gandolfini, a NJ native, had to be coached to drop his Rs for the show, because flyover country thinks people in Jersey talk like people in Brooklyn. If you ever hear Gandolfini speak in his real voice, he pronounces his Rs as well as any Midwesterner.

Reorganization

The details of the pronunciation of the name of the state are a detail and shouldn't be in the introduction. On the other hand, the information regarding where NY and Philly dialect areas are found in New Jersey is clearly verified in ANAE as shown in the reference attached there.mnewmanqc (talk) 08:27, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

You make a good point and I would support revising the introduction as you suggest. The first footnote, however, does not clearly indicate which work is referred to, much less what page. Also, we still need a reference for the assertion that the state sports "at least one autochthonous dialect." So I have restored the request for citation.Thefactis (talk) 14:37, 12 July 2008 (UTC).

Fact is, I'm not sure what you mean about the clarity of the reference, but I'm happy to take out "autochthonous." The reference "Labov et al." clearly refers to the ANAE, as can be seen in the references at bottom. The use of "Labov, et. al. (2001) for Labov, Ash, and Boberg (2001) is standard APA-ish style citation usage. If you want to fix it to your satisfaction, please do. If you have doubts about it look at the ANAE yourself. mnewmanqc (talk) 15:09, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

The first footnote requires page numbers, as per policy on verifiability.Thefactis (talk) 14:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Are You Sure There Isn't A Short-A Split In Northern New Jersey?

I have a hard time believing that there isn't a short-a split in northern New Jersey. I just met a person from Morristown, and he uses a tense ash in basketball. I know this is original research, but I thought it needed to be said. I'm pretty sure there isn't a cot-caught merger there either, which this article mentions nothing about. Thegryseone (talk) 04:07, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

It may be that some parts of northern NJ have a short-a system similar to that that's found in Albany—with no formal phonetic split, but rather allophonic conditioning that resembles the patterning found in NYC rather than a simple nasal system. AJD (talk) 15:19, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

He uses a tense ash in bad as well, which also follows the NYC pattern. He's actually from Long Valley. I don't know if that makes a difference. What do you mean "no formal phonetic split"? Don't you mean phonemic split? Thegryseone (talk) 17:58, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, typo: I did mean phonemic split. What's apparently found in Albany is tensing in the same environments as in NYC (before nasals, voiced stops, and voiceless fricatives), but missing some of the complications that many the NYC system into a full-fledged phonemic split—no lexical exceptions, no effect of syllable boundaries, no difference between functional and lexical words, and so on.

Actually, this paper by Labov discusses a couple of speakers from North Plainfield; and they have short-a systems that can be interpreted as biphonemic, but with fewer of the structural complications that NYC exhibits. So maybe what really happens is that the split short-a system drops of rapidly as you move away from NYC, but doesn't disappear all at once. AJD (talk) 23:31, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, Long Valley's quite far from NYC though. The only reason I was bringing this up is because I thought northern New Jersey had a nasal system like many dialects. But then I heard this guy using so many tense ashes, and I was confused. Maybe he was exaggerating his accent because he's so proud of where he's from. I did meet a woman from Albany that sounded very much like a New Yorker as well. Maybe that was partly because of her short-a system. Thegryseone (talk) 03:21, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Recent changes (October 2008)

I continue to have issues the existence of this page, since it is about something that strictly speaking doesn't exist, at least as a dialect, but as a collection of dialects that happen to be in the same state. However, if it does exist, it should be accurate and professional looking. The recent changes tended to obscure that with unsupported claims and confusing impressionistic pseudo-phonetic spellings alongside inaccurate IPA ones. I'm not thrilled with what I ended up writing. It's based on one very complicated features, the short-a split as well as rhoticity, but if someone wants to improve it, I think that'd be great. mnewmanqc (talk) 21:26, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

No offense, but I added some concrete examples; they should be improved, not deleted. If you can improve my crappy IPAs or pseudo-phonetic spellings, please do. And do you really think this sentence was "cleaner", as you stated in the edit summary? - "Perhaps the most common variety at least centered on the state is the so-called North Jersey accent, which is most clearly heard in the northeast quarter of the state, which is part of the New York City metropolitan area." Spettro9 (talk) 22:54, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Spettro, Let's not get into an edit war here. I think we both want to make the article better. However, the problem with the intro as you left it isn't terribly coherent or at times it's misleading. It's not clear that there is anything like New Jersey English. Look at the ANAE. The state has no clear "NJ English dialect." Believe me, if it did wouldn't Labov have made sure to point that considering that he's from there? So, it's not really accurate to say that "features unique to itself." Also, the question of transplants is pretty much true in most areas of the US, and immigrants to most. Also, It doesn't have regional varieties that share features with other varieties like NY or Phila. It has speakers of NY Dialect and particularly Philadelphia Dialect so the whole paragraph is problematic, which is why I took it out altogether.

Look, NJ is a fascinating place dialectally. It's also been astoundingly understudied in recent years. But there is no such thing as NJ English any more than there's a New York State English or a Pennsylvania English. If this page is going to exist, then it needs to reflect that. I know what I wrote was hardly elegant. That's why I invited others to improve on it. However, it was accurate as far as I can tell. It cited the ANEA in terms of two features, which are particularly significant dialectologically and are covered in that atlas. I did provide examples. So please, fix it up and put it back as it was or, as I did, explain why it shouldn't be there. mnewmanqc (talk) 01:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed we're both interested in this. I'd agree maybe the state is less one accent and is really more divided between NYC and Philly by accent, for lack of a better word. I changed a bit more to with reference to this and what you said. And I know the IPAs for the examples for North Jersey I added need help. Also, is that ANEA really the be-and-end-all? do we have to be constantly beholden to a certain person's view or even research? That is exactly the strength of Wikipedia: to have as more views... btw, I am from NJ, and I would guess you are too, but the things I could say regarding the NJ speech comes much more from meeting people from all over the US and world... Spettro9 (talk) 18:55, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia guidelines, the information reported should be based on published research, meaning that it is vetted and accessible for review. That's not to say it's the be-and-end-all. It's just the best we can do. The problem with basing what's reported on experience is that there's no way of checking or settling disputes. Also, people often have a lot of misunderstandings particularly about language. The ANEA is the most authoritative source for regional dialectology available, but it has its limits, particularly the low number of informants in each area and the absence of many rural areas. So there's a source or two in Atlantic City, but as far as I can tell none in the Pine Barrens. The problem is that there is a good deal of interest in regional dialectology on the part of the people who live in particular areas, but that interest is limited among those who have the skill set needed to do the work. As far as I can tell, there is no one at any university in NJ who is doing work to fill in the blanks. It will require someone from outside, and I'm sure there are some interesting questions involving local identity versus outsiders to be explored in rural areas there. In terms of the intro, I think it should be as accurate as possible. I'll give it a few days, and if you agree take it up again when I have some time to do the job better. BTW. I'm from Queens. However, I worked briefly at William Paterson U. I don't harbor any prejudices against NJ dialects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mnewmanqc (talk • contribs) 13:40, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, sounds good; you're saying you'd redo the intro? My main points are that 1. NJ English today, is most definitely rhotic; I know my grandmother from Bergen County would say 'father' non-rhoticly (jeez, what did that word come from.), but today noone does west of the Hudson and 2. I think the examples i added in the second paragraph should stay, albeit they need cleaning. And yes throughout the state, there are undoubtedly other dialect/accents. And I went to WPU, graduated 2002. I harbor no prejudice against Queens dialects either. Word (*pronounced rhoticly, of course). Spettro9 (talk) 19:25, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok give me a couple of weeks. I'll do it if no one does first. The only point of disagreement I have is that the Jersey City/Hoboken area is generally considered part of the NY Dialect Region and so may be variably non-rhotic. Perhaps that extends up to Fort Lee.mnewmanqc (talk) 01:55, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I live in NJ. I'm hard-of-hearing. I suppose this dialect related diversity explains at least part of the reason why (aside from my biological hearing loss). 204.52.215.107 (talk) 01:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I spent plenty of time in Jersey City, Hoboken, and Fort Lee; I really don't think there's anyone saying H2O as "wateh".... anymore. But of course I could be off. In any case, Labov is right about a correlation with socioeconomics and such, and of course immigration from outside the US (and from within the US in the case of Hoboken i imagine) is that whole area, as we said in the article... Spettro9 (talk) 19:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

More changes (November 2008)

I just changed a few little things: 1. moved the comment about Labov being a NJ speaker himself into the notable speakers 2. reordered the North Jersey part to make it a little more readable...... and can we add a good example of this 'short a split' thing? I looked at the linked page, and I am still not convinced it exists, nor can i find a suitable example in there anyway Spettro9 (talk) 18:58, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

th --> n ? and n --> nth?

It's pretty common in US English for th to become "t" or "d" (someone was writing about this in NY and Southern US English) but I just found myself saying "he's from there" as "he's from (n)eir" ......Also, i find myself saying the "n" in Newark with a bit of "th", in other words the tongue being under or behind the front teeth, instead of against the palate like in a normal "n" - this is all 100% original research but to me these two features sounds totally northern jersey, but what do you you(s) think? Spettro9 (talk) 18:58, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

No source on disputable statement

Residents, some seasonal, of the seaside communities north of Atlantic City tend to have a New York influence and those to the south have a Philadelphia influence, likely because of the large number of residents from those areas who visit during the summers.

There's no source or evidence to support such a statement. As I'm sure many of you know, it says citation needed. Honestly, this is an opinion. I guess it'd vary on how the person sees it. But there's nothing to back this statement up. Think of it this way. People who work at gas stations, diners and what ever else of I-95 in the Carolinas and Georgia are custom to seeing outsiders, many of whom are from the North.

Do these people impact there accents? No. Will they beat more accepting to them? Probably, because this is who they're making money off of. Similarly, locals in South Jersey on the shore know much of the revenue comes from people in the NYC area and Philadelphia area. I think it should be noted though that the Delaware Valley, especially the New Jersey side of it, has a heavier influence than Philadelphia, because their in closer proximity to it. Plus, they don't have to pay extra tolls and some people live within driving distance so you wouldn't have to get a hotel or summer home. There are some people who live down there during the summers, but these communities tend to be isolated. Most of it's not on normal resident blocks. The children of these family's are not attending the schools, so they're contact with other youth is little. Similarly, you have have people who go down to, say, Myrtle Beach, SC, during the summer, but they're not altering the Southern accent much.

A thorough observation would not be necessary to know there's not much variation in accent between Wildwood or Long Beach Island (popular for tourists) and Mystic Island or Egg Harbor Township (not as popular for tourists). Most people in the shore just have a mix of what you'd see in the Delaware Valley and Central Jersey, which relates most to the Mid-Atlantic and General American accent. So it relates more to the influence of the Philadelphia area than the NY area. That's just my observation, but I'm sure if most of you've been there, you'd know where I'm coming from with this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.73.230.11 (talk) 07:53, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

"Lemme splain ya"

I am aware of a unique New Jersey English expression: "Lemme splain ya" ("Let me explain to you").

I recall Uncle Floyd (a New Jersey based entertainer) mentioning how this expression was indigenous to New Jersey on his TV program in the early 1980s.

If an example, or a list of expressions, of New Jersey English is added to the article, this phrase should be researched, cited and utilized.

72.82.214.220 (talk) 05:45, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Footnotes, Notable Speakers

A lot of the sources cited in the "Footnotes" section are unreliable for a linguistics article. A journalist writing that so-and-so has a New Jersey accent is not a reliable source. Journalists are not required to be dialectologists. So they might say so-and-so has such-and-such accent, but they don't necessarily know what they're talking about.

I also have a few complaints about the notable speakers. Frank Sinatra was born, and I believe raised, in Hoboken, New Jersey, which is a part of the New York City dialect region according to William Labov (who actually is a dialectologist btw). Also keep in mind that the cast of The Sopranos are actors. Gandolfini is from northern New Jersey and naturally has that accent, although I think I read that he hired a dialect coach to help him do more of a New York City accent for his role on that show. I don't know about the other actors on that show though, because I'm not a huge fan. Some of them may be from other dialect regions and just attempt to put on a New Jersey accent for that show. The source cited for the inclusion of The Sopranos cast is a bit more reliable because it actually quotes a Stanford linguist in that article. He says the accents on that show are "perfect", except for "Livia, the mother". Still though, if most of them are affected, then I don't think they should be included in this article, no matter how perfect they sound to a Stanford linguist, simply because they are put on, thus they are not authentic accents. If we're going to have a list of notable speakers, it should only include people who naturally have the accent, not actors pretending to have it. I'll have to check to see where the rest of the cast is from. Frank Vincent was born in North Adams, Massachusetts, which is in the Western New England dialect region, and he was raised in Jersey City, New Jersey, which is in the New York City dialect region. Also it gets a bit complicated when we're talking about people raised in South Jersey. Technically they have a Philadelphia aka Mid-Atlantic accent. However, at the same time you could say they have South Jersey accents although they're the same as Philly accents. South Jersey accent is a term that's used more in opposition to North Jersey accent. Bruce Willis is one of those South Jersey people I was referring to, who arguably could be included in the Philadelphia dialect article; I guess he could be included here too though. I guess Dov Davidoff can stay, although I don't think he's particularly notable, though you could argue the same with Labov (most people could). There are two Monroe Townships in New Jersey and I'm not sure which one Davidoff is from, nor am I sure if he was actually raised there for most of his life, thus I'm not sure if his accent represents New Jersey. I believe I went through the list in its entirety.

I also don't know how my last edit could possibly be construed as "potential vandalism". So what if that information was sourced. The writings of journalists don't constitute a reliable source as I mentioned earlier. So let's not pretend the sources given here are wonderful sources, because they aren't at all. Both of the sources cited for Ray Liotta's inclusion in this article are the type I'm referring to. They are just journalists (not dialectologists or linguists) saying that Ray Liotta has a Jersey accent. It's not like it's the great William Labov pointing out specific vowels in Ray Liotta's speech that tell us he's from New Jersey. I believe that he has a New Jersey accent now because although he was born in Newark, which is part of the New York City dialect region, he graduated from Union High School in Union, New Jersey; so I'll assume he was raised there, thus he has the North Jersey accent, but I don't know that for certain. Also I've heard him interviewed, and he sounds more northern New Jersey than New York city. That's just my personal observation though, which doesn't count for anything here. I guess he can remain on the list. Thegryseone (talk) 05:51, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

First you state that the sources regarding Ray Liotta aren't reliable because they are not by a linguist. Then, you determine that Liotta "can remain on this list" based on your own observations. So basically it's coming down to who Thegryseone believes to have a certain accent or not. Unless you hang out with James Gandolfini on a regular basis, you have no idea what he "naturally has". He may speak in a General American accent but puts on the Jersey accent for the roles he plays because he is typecast. I don't understand why only the writings of a dialectologist would be a reliable source. If a writer for Newsweek writes that Wilt Chamberlain was African-American, does the writer have to be a geneticist for that to be a reliable source? If a writer for The Los Angeles Times is interviewing Angelina Jolie and states that she is visibly pregnant, does the writer have to be a gynecologist in order for the article to be a reliable source that she and Brad Pitt are expecting another child? Labov is not the only person in the world that can determine a regional accent. Maybe a journalist who has traveled the country or has lived in a certain area can also hear the differences and make the same conclusions you are making. MrBlondNYC (talk) 08:17, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I recall Wikipedia having a no personal attacks policy. You're really pushing it, buddy. I said "I guess Ray Liotta can remain on the list". No one said I was in control of the list. You're obviously just trying to provoke a reaction in other Wikipedia users. You're clearly a troll. No one takes trolls seriously. I don't know why I even dignified a troll's remarks with a response. Thegryseone (talk) 08:55, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I am not trying to insult you and I'm sorry if you took it that way. But calling me a troll is a definite insult. I have noticed in the past few weeks, you have made numerous edits to this article's and New York dialect's list of notable speakers, many without real explanations. One I recall, you deleted and just wrote "No to [person's name]". A few others you just deleted with no explanation at all. Another time, you wrote, "I'll just add my favorites". These actions, plus reading this post above, I can only read this as you are editing these lists according to your personal opinion. But if you take this observation as a personal attack, again, I apologize. Let's set that aside and address what I wrote after my "attack". MrBlondNYC (talk) 21:01, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Alright, let's suppose you're not a troll and address what you wrote after your attack for the sake of argument (by the way, putting "attack" and everything else I write in quotation marks is also very patronizing and insulting; I'm sure you realize that and that's why you do it). First of all, as I mentioned earlier, when I wrote that Ray Liotta could remain on the list I meant it in a very tentative manner, hence the "I guess" part. You made it sound as if I was 100% certain about it and that I demanded that he remain on the list or else some one would have to die. More importantly, I find your argument to be a false analogy (so much so, in fact, that you became aware of it and you had to change it). The Wilt Chamberlain one originally went something like this: "If a writer for Newsweek writes that Wilt Chamberlain was 7'1" (or somewhere around there), does the writer have to be a doctor (or some other profession that is full of people who are good at telling heights) for that to be a reliable source?" My answer for that is no, not necessarily. However, let's say that I have two possible sources for Wilt Chamberlain's height. One of them we know is a doctor (or whatever profession you previously used). The other one is something besides a doctor; let's say journalist. It's possible that he could also be an expert when it comes to people's heights, but there's no way we can know that for sure, because the only thing we know about him is that he's a journalist. If the only thing I know about these two sources is that one is a doctor and one is a journalist, I'm going to go with the doctor as the more reliable source. In response to the does-someone-have-to-be-a-geneticist-to-tell-if-someone-else-is-black argument, I say no, of course not. The only problem with that is being able to tell what race a person is is much easier than being able to tell the subtle differences between a North Jersey accent and a New York City accent. I bet if we were to somehow do a study on this, we would find that most Americans are very good at spotting the differences in physical appearance between the various races, but also that most are not near as good at telling the difference between a North Jersey accent and a NYC accent. The first one is probably something that is learned much earlier in life, while the second one may be learned later in life if at all. For example, a lot of people from outside the East Coast tend to lump all East Coast accents together. I recall reading a paper by William Labov called How I got into linguistics, and what I got out of it. Here is an excerpt from that paper that supports my point:

In 1987, I had another opportunity to test the usefulness of linguistics on a matter that was vital to a single person. A number of bomb threats were made in repeated telephone calls to the Pan American counter at the Los Angeles airport. Paul Prinzivalli, a cargo handler who was thought by Pan American to be a "disgruntled employee," was accused of the crime, and he was jailed. The evidence was that his voice sounded like the tape recordings of the bomb threat caller. The defense sent me the tapes because Prinzivalli was a New Yorker, and they thought I might be able to distinguish two different kinds of New York City accents. The moment I heard the recordings I was sure that he was innocent; the man who made the bomb threats plainly did not come from New York at all, but from the Boston area of Eastern New England. The problem was to prove this in court to a West Coast judge who could hear no difference between Boston and New York City speech!

The main requirement for perceiving the differences between races is having vision, while having audition does not guarantee that you'll be able to detect various accents, especially ones with very subtle differences between them. The same goes for the Angelina Jolie example. The primary faculty one needs to be able to tell if a woman is pregnant is sight. This is something that is very elementary and easy; it is clearly not the same as telling the difference between North Jersey accents and NYC accents. My main point is that detecting subtle differences between accents is not as simple as doing those things that you mentioned. Thegryseone (talk) 00:36, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

You may report me to the admins regarding my harsh attack with absolutely no protest from me. I believe that is the proper way to deal with a person like me on Wikipedia. So then, regarding my Chamberlain example, what if the only source we have is what a journalist wrote (it doesn't matter if it's ethnicity or height}, can we then accept it or should it be dismissed because the writer is not an expert? That was your reasoning for deleting much of the notable speakers examples on both pages. The times you actually gave a reason, that is. I believe you wrote something like "What does [newspaper] know about NYC/NJ accents?" As you wrote above we do not know for sure what the writer knows. He could have took classes with Labov for all we know. Probably not. But as I wrote, maybe the writer can detect the subtleties regional accents from frequently traveling across the country. He may not have learned it in a classroom. Maybe a New York Times writer grew up in Jersey and has lived in NYC for decades. We don't know. We don't know how much a journalist is an expert on anything they write on or how well they checked their sources. But they may be the best source we currently have and I believe that is considered acceptable according to Wikipedia's rules, providing they are reputable. MrBlondNYC (talk) 03:02, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm guessing your first two sentences were sarcastic. Not funny at all though for someone so interested in comedy (Hey you're the one who decided to put that information where everyone can see it). Alright, I see where you are coming from. I have a few more things I want to write though (clearly or I wouldn't have begun to write again). First of all, Ajd was the one who last removed many of the speakers on the notable speakers list. This is a fact that you seem to ignore. The summary for the edit he made on April 25 reads: rm Liotta, Sinatra, Vincent, Willis: sources cited are unreliable, and in some cases do not even claim NJ accent; none grew up in NJ accent region. Yet for some reason I take all the blame. And you wonder why I accuse you of personal attacks. One thing you need to know is that AJD is a linguist in real life; he has worked with William Labov. I see him as an authority in this area. So when he says something like what he said in that edit summary, I tend to believe him and agree with him. Sometimes I debate his facts a bit, but usually he presents some sort of reliable source to back them up and convince me I'm wrong. What I don't understand is why you addressed me about this problem and not him. He's the one who made the edit.

Another thing you don't seem to understand is that William Labov is probably the greatest authority in the world when it comes to North Jersey accents. Not only is he the premiere sociolinguist in the United States, if not the world, but he grew up in North Jersey himself and he has the accent.

Finally, you need to understand the process I go through before I add someone to a notable speakers list on any dialect article in Wikipedia. Let's use Jim Cramer as an example; I added him to the Philadelphia accent article a while back. Here's a summary of the steps I took before adding him to that article:

• 1. I read the Philadelphia accent article on Wikipedia thoroughly, in addition to pretty much anything else I could possibly find on the internet about that accent, including recordings of native speakers. When I do this I usually focus on vowels, because they are usually what distinguishes North American accents from one another for the most part, although Philly has some interesting consonantal features as well so I payed attention to those. Keep in mind I did this with a prior knowledge of pretty much all the vowels of the IPA, a lot of the consonants (except for the rare ones), as well as a decent knowledge of phonetics, phonology, and dialectology. Because of this knowledge I am able to get an idea of what a dialect sounds like before actually hearing it. I can pronounce the sounds myself and listen to how it sounds.
• 2. I happened to hear Jim Cramer on television one day. I noticed that he sounded a lot like the descriptions I had read of the Philly dialect. He had some Canadian raising, he used the same vowel in on that he used in words like talk and caught which happens to be a distinctive sounding vowel in my opinion, and other Philly features. I also noticed that he was completely rhotic.
• 3. I looked up Jim Cramer on Wikipedia. I noticed that he was born in Wyndmoor, Pennsylvania. Already I thought that it couldn't be a coincidence that he sounded so much like what I expected a Philly accent to sound like and he was born in Pennsylvania. I looked up Wyndmoor and found that it was a suburb of Philadelphia. Now it seemed like even less of a coincidence.
• 4. I saw that one of his first jobs was selling ice cream at Veterans Stadium. That's a great opportunity for contact with a large number of Philadelphians. It's also a clue that he wasn't just born in the Philly area, he actually spent his formative years there. Then I discovered that he attended Springfield Township High School in Montgomery County, Pennsylvania. I knew from looking at isoglosses on countless dialect maps that this area is indeed in the Philadelphia dialect area. I looked at other sources to verify that he did indeed spend most of his years growing up there and not sporadically. That way I could be sure that his accent was a genuine Philly one. I also tried to figure out where his parents were born and grew up, as parents are a possible influence on the speech of their children, especially in their early years.
• 5. Finally after everything pointed to Jim Cramer being an authentic speaker of the Philadelphia dialect, I added him in the Philadelphia dialect article. I also considered his notability. I thought that many Americans probably knew him as the crazy guy on Mad Money. I knew that he had been interviewed on numerous other TV programs like the Daily Show, which I knew was very popular. He was certainly as notable or more notable than Chris Matthews, who was already in that article at the time. I realized that he was a real guy, not a fictional character or an actor pretending to have the accent and perhaps not getting it exactly right. In my opinion, his accent was more pronounced than that of Chris Matthews. At least it sounded like that to my ears, which I have trained to hear subtleties in accents. This also made sense, because on his program, Jim is a very passionate and spontaneous speaker. This is the type of speech that linguists try to elicit from people, because they know it is a better way to hear how a dialect truly sounds. When people are not that conscious of their speech, like in fast, spontaneous speech (the kind that Jim loves), they usually do not correct their speech as much. I knew that Chris Matthews, on the other hand, was a much slower, seemingly less spontaneous speaker. The questions he had for interviewees were more planned.

That's the basic process I go through when I add anyone to a notable speakers list. Sometimes I have screwed up in the past, but I try to go back and correct my errors after finding out new information. While you may call this "original research", it is not the same original research as most other editor's original research, from what I've seen. Some editors assume that, e.g., Marlon Brando has a NYC accent simply because he played the Godfather, even though he grew up in Omaha, Nebraska (which is known for its "accentless" speech if anything), Evanston, Illinois (which is clearly in the Inland North) and Libertyville, Illinois (same). I'm more than willing to bet that most editors do not go through this process. If they did then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Unlike their OR, my OR actually involves a lot of research, so please don't treat me like an ignoramus. Thanks :) Thegryseone (talk) 05:35, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

You seem bent on insulting me even though I apologized twice. No, I was not being sarcastic. This is according to the rules of Wikipedia regarding personal attacks. If you feel I personally attacked then that is what you should do. I even offer that you can report me to the admin and I would not argue it at all yet you still insult me. But I don't take it personally at all and I guess there's nothing more I can do on that issue. Speaking of the rules, I went over WP:No original research and what you are doing is the very definition of original research. "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth... only assertions, theories, opinions, and arguments that have already been published in a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia." and "This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, arguments, or conclusions." So even if you have spent your entire life researching linguistics, according to Wikipedia, your findings mean bupkis unless it was published in a reputable source. Ajd gave good explanations for his edits. He removed examples that were not cited at all and described that some of the citations did not even mention an NJ accent. Those are reasons that are inarguable. You give good explanations sometimes but I am referring to edits such as "Removed various names for various reasons...". Ok... what reasons? "...it's hard to find sources for this stuff anyway" But you don't explain why the sources provided were not worthy. Ajd did. If it's a matter of length, you can at least put "see talk page" and explain it here. On the NYC list, there are edits such as "No to Danny DeVito, this list sucks". Ok, just "no"? Why? And "This list sucks" is not an explanation and I feel is an insult to the people who compiled the list. Under the summary "It's not like we need this list, because everyone knows what a NYC accent sounds like, but as long as it's here I'm going to add my favs", you also removed Denzel Washington with no explanation why. Those are a few examples. By the way, I'm the one who used Labov's book and interview with The New Yorker as a reference when editing the NYC dialect article. I added FDR and argued when people wanted him removed by citing Labov's book. But thanks anyway for helping me understand who he is. MrBlondNYC (talk) 00:40, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Alright, but what does the past have to do with now? You seem bent on bringing up edits that Thegryseone (who very well could be more than one actual person) made a while ago. You also seem bent on following Thegryseone around everywhere he goes (including the NYC dialect article). Danny Devito didn't grow up in New York City or New Jersey along the Hudson, that's why I took him out obviously. Once again, it just seemed like a bunch of stupid people putting people on the list without really putting much thought into it. No, I'm not going to report you to an administrator because that's something someone like you would do and I don't care enough about it. You continue to insult me as well. This is getting extremely boring. Feel free to go on arguing, I won't respond. You clearly have enough time on your hands to do it. Oh yeah, and in response to your last few sentences, you're welcome. I'd be glad to help you understand anything you're struggling with. Feel free to come to me if you have any questions. Thegryseone (talk) 06:33, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

There has been way too much drama here for a discussion section of a Wikipedia article on NJ English. I make the following suggestions. Mrblondnyc, can we just let Thegryseone have the last word (before me) and just drop this as fruitless. Thegryseone, can we have your silence on this issue and can you consider this over without necessarily taking Mrblondnyc's silence is acquiesence? Please don't take this as implying any kind of equivalence between you two or favoring either one on my part. I think the best form of agreement to my suggestions will be not responding here, but no matter what anyone else does, I won't write anything else on this subject. mnewmanqc (talk) 15:09, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Move to English dialects of New Jersey

I intend to move the article to English dialects of New Jersey since there is no unified dialect of the state nor any unique innovation common to the two dialects but not common to other dialects. This will still leave the current title as a redirect so other articles will not have to be changed. μηδείς (talk) 01:26, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

This move has my support. The only qualification is that there aren't two dialects, but at least three, with a transition zone between NYC and what is spoken in northern NJ, which probably continues into neighboring statesmnewmanqc (talk) 08:58, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

As for the number of dialects, I would distinguish the Northern dialect area, with innovation from New York, the Southern dialect area, with innovation from Philadelphia, and then, of course, the Bayonnese isolate. I am not quite sure what you are referring to as the third area. Do you mean the transitional area of Central Jersey, or the Northwest area outside direct NYC influence? Or something else?

Only the area just west of NYC has NYC English. Going west even just as far as Passaic County, the phonology becomes quite different. It is r-ful and has a nasal system for short a (ae words become tense categorically before nasal consonants and are lax elsewhere, as opposed to elaborate NYC English system. All this can be found in a number of Labov's writings and in a 1970 MA Thesis by Paul Cohen, which I think I uploaded to my website. Do we know that the Pine Barrens area is like Philly? I don't think there's any data on that at all. This guy called Coye has a recent article in American Speech on Jersey, but it's written survey data. Not sure how useful. However, if someone would do a summary, it would help this article out considerably. I don't have the time now. What do you mean by "Bayonnese isolate"? mnewmanqc (talk) 16:30, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Unless you object I'll change the name to New Jersey English dialects, rather than the first alternative, so as to preserve NJ as the first element. μηδείς (talk) 15:36, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

no objection.mnewmanqc (talk) 16:30, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Ah, now I understand. I wasn't really even considering the NY dialect you would see on the Sopranos as a NJ dialect as such. I could see how you would distinguish between the Kearny dialect and the Woodbridge dialect though. As for Bayonnese, I was introduced to someone from the town once, and found the accent so thick (think Rosie Perez in intensity if not quality) as to be difficult to understand. When I was told he was from Bayonne, I asked "Bayonne, France?" and was shocked to hear the response, "No. Bayonne, NJ." μηδείς (talk) 16:52, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

y - Ch?

I notice that sometimes when I speak I use a "ch" sound rather than the regular "y" sound. For example, when I say "nice to meet you," It comes out as "nice to meet-chu." Should this be recognized? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.1.150.112 (talk) 22:27, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Good question. However, this process is not particular to New Jersey or anywhere in it, so no. mnewmanqc (talk) 06:09, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

• The phenomenon is called palatalization and it is a general aspect of many languages and of North American English in front of the pronoun you like "won't you" > "won'tcha" but not in front of other y sounds like "can't use" which does not become "can'tchuse". But since it doesn't have any special connection to NJ it doesn't belong in this article. μηδείς (talk) 20:49, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation?

@Mnewmanqc, Pharos, and Thefactis: (and any others) I'm wondering if we should start converting this article into a Disambiguation page. There are basically no important citations on the page except for the "Notable speakers" sections (and even those have been disputed) and all the info given for sections can be found on other pages (for example, all the "South Jersey English" info is already found on the more organized and detailed "Philadelphia English" page). We already all basically I agree, I believe, that there is no one single New Jersey English and that the many varieties spoken in this state are actually classified by the research under dialects that already have their own distinct Wikipedia pages: Mid-Atlantic American English, New York City English, Inland Northern American English (which seems to have avoided being mentioned here, oddly) etc. Changing this article to a Disambiguation page would also help bolster the idea to readers that New Jersey English is not one unified entity, helping to correct some popular misconceptions. Wolfdog (talk) 18:44, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I would agree with this approach. "New Jersey English" is a granfalloon if ever there was one.--Pharos (talk) 19:43, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• It is true that North and South Jersey English are different, but there is a continuum connecting them, and they share much more than either does with Buffalo or Pittsburg. Central Jersey exists, and South Jersey English is no more South Philadelphia English than North Jersey English is Brooklynese. Making this a disambiguation page would once again imply NJ is not differentiable from Philly or New York City. If there is a problem with citations, add cn tags.

μηδείς (talk) 20:25, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

• Buffalo has nothing to do with New York City English, and Pittsburgh has nothing to do with Mid-Atlantic American English (!) The fact is that dialects do not just magically correlate with state borders, and this is as true for New Jersey as it is for other states. Reliable linguistic sources group the varieties of speech in New Jersey with regions that happen to extend across a couple of state borders, but this is just normal.--Pharos (talk) 20:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

The best sources are [The Atlas of North American English], an [an article by Dale Coye based on questionnaires of high schoolers around NJ], and (uhm) [this book]. According to these sources, south Jersey is an integral part of Mid Atlantic along with Philly and south all the way to Baltimore. The upper corner east of the Meadowlands is New York City English. There's no discernible difference anyone has noticed, but this is a small strip. There's a transition going west from the Hackensack valley/Meadowlands of features becoming less NYC-like, but it's not clear what it is transitioning to. Is it the same as Eastern Penn and Rockland and Orange Co's NY. Probably, but no one has looked at it. As for Central NJ, the dialect boundaries haven't been looked at either apart from Coye's study, but again, it's likely to transition to Mid-Atlantic. So, I think there is no actual NJ speech, but the state is interesting and quite diverse dialectally, and that's only White people. What happens with African Americans and Latinos is entirely unstudied. In conclusion: it makes sense to move the page to Disambiguation at this point with caveats about transitions. mnewmanqc (talk) 06:41, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

This same (disambig) approach has been taken, as you can see, for the article Pennsylvania English. And, by the way, according to the Atlas of North American English's dialect maps, New Jersey can be divided specifically into the Mid-Atlantic dialect (the one covering most of the state's territory), the NYC dialect, the Inland North dialect, and some unspecified areas just at the northernmost and southernmost areas of the state (perhaps falling under the Midland dialect). Labov and pals do NOT identify any singular "New Jersey way of speaking", or even any way of speaking found only in New Jersey among several others; rather, all of the dialects spoken in the state are also spoken in areas outside the state, from which they appear to originate. Wolfdog (talk) 14:21, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Here's a potential look for this article as a disambiguation page:
New Jersey English, accent, or dialect may refer to any of the following varieties of English spoken in the state of New Jersey:

• Mid-Atlantic American English [or, perhaps, Philadelphia English], spoken in South Jersey and some areas of Central Jersey
• New York City English, spoken in northeastern New Jersey as well as Middlesex and Monmouth Counties, and in some areas near the Hudson River, including Newark and Jersey City
• Northern American English, spoken in northwestern New Jersey, just along the border of the Inland North dialect region

Does this seem accurate and appropriate? Wolfdog (talk) 14:23, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I generally agree, but I would modify the recurring "spoken in" to "as spoken in", to acknowledge that there may potentially be distinctive local features of these larger dialects.--Pharos (talk) 02:46, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

• The reason we have an article on New Jersey accents, as opposed for one for Pennsylvania accents, is that that is what readers, writers, and scholars are interested in. "Pennsylvania accent" (verbatim) gets 2,790 ghits and 708 hits at google books, while "New Jersey accent" get 64,900 ghits and 13,800 hits at google books--about a 20-fold difference. In the popular mind, the "Jersey accent" is a thing. Given that readers should indeed learn that while North and South Jersey accents share some features and differ in others, a mere redirect to narrower regional accents will not accomplish this.

I am not too familiar with Northwest New Jersey, but I agree we should include other dialects/accents/regions with unique terms and features, such as those found among "Pineys" and among year-round residents of the Jersey shore. It is also simply false that, say, the South Jersey accent is identical to the Philly accent. One doesn't hear the same rapidly evolving vowels and things like "The Iggles" from South Jersey natives. The same holds for North Jersey and New York.

The solution is to add referenced material, not to divide the state into 4 or 7 regions in separate articles with no over-arching article, just a disambiguation page. That would be would just as arbitrary as having one article encompassing all, but much less helpful to our readers.

μηδείς (talk) 03:12, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

In the popular mind, the "Jersey accent" is just New York City English; even though indeed, it is only spoken in a fairly small portion of the state, that's the Hollywood view. I don't see how google hits alone justify a separate article on this misconception, though I agree it would be helpful if there was real narrative discussion of this, and I think the best place for that would actually be sections of articles like New York City English#New Jersey use (doesn't exist yet, shockingly), that would detail any features distinctive to the New Jersey portion of that dialect's range. And we could link to such NJ-specific sections of the several dialect articles right from the diambiguation page.--Pharos (talk) 03:30, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure there are no features distinctive of the NYCE portion of NJ. I know that Libby Coggswell, an NYU ling student from Jersey City gave a presentation a few years ago on sociolinguistic research on NYCE in Jersey City and didn't find anything that varied from across the Hudson. There's no published research I'm aware of that gives any hint that South Jersey differs from Philly. It may do so, but there's no evidence for it out there (again I'm happy to be corrected on that point). The research that is there the Atlas of North American English, shows that it is part of the Mid-Atlantic dialect region, which goes all the way down to Maryland. I wouldn't be surprised if the Pine Barrens did have separate features, but again, without anyone identifying what they are, we're in the realm of intuition and speculation. I'm personally fine with shifting to a redirect. mnewmanqc (talk) 19:09, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Pharos that the "Jersey accent" is largely popular (on Google and beyond) merely as a stereotype, probably boosted by Hollywood and other media sources like Jersey Shore (many of whose castmembers are, by the way, actually from NYC). Even "Joisey accent" itself (with that spelling) gets some 3,800 g-hits; and "Joisey" or "Joisey + jersey" [not in quotes] gets multiple tens of thousands of hits! This no-longer-accurate stereotype of the accent's pronunciation of "Jersey" as "Joisey," for example, goes to show that extreme popularity of thought does not equal truth.

I also agree with mnewmanqc that there are no clearcut distinctions between NYCE and Northeastern New Jersey English. As for South Jersey English vs. Philly English, no one is claiming they are identical. The fact that a single dialect alone does not have one homogeneous, internal consistency among all its speakers is already understood in linguistics. For example, regarding NYCE as spoken in NYC itself, some speakers pronounce /ð/ as [d], some speakers have a non-rhotic accent, some speakers diphthongize /i/, etc. while other speakers, still using NYCE, do not have any of those features whatsoever. But they all can possibly still be speakers of NYCE, which is united by the sum total possibility of defining features, not by any one or two features that makes or breaks whether someone is from that dialect area. Right now, all research suggests South Jersey English and Philly English are the same dialect, which by no means implies that this dialect's speakers all talk perfectly identically or that the dialect is perfectly consistent across a geographic spectrum; even many native Philly English speakers, born and raised in Philly, for instance, do not say "Iggles" and not all Philadelphians have the rapidly evolving vowels you mention either.

To me, the solution is indeed to direct readers to better referenced and more accurate articles for the content they're seeking but that they may not have known existed, since they are possibly coming in with uninformed stereotypes of a narrow "Jersey accent" that they do not realize is actually part of a larger dialect phenomenon. That's the point of a disambiguation page: to be helpful in guiding readers to a better destination. Medeis, you say that making a disambiguation page "would be would just as arbitrary as having one article encompassing all" (the latter which you favor). However, it seems to me that the former option would be more helpful because (1) it guides readers to a more comprehensive article of what they're seeking (even if under a name they didn't expect) AND (2) helps readers to both realize and then move on from ideas that may be more stereotypical than accurate. Wolfdog (talk) 14:39, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Wolfdog. That was a very clear and well thought out exposition of the issue at hand and the reason to move to Disambiguation. mnewmanqc (talk) 16:56, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree with almost all of this, but I still think it would be useful to have explicit sections on the major regions where a dialect is used, where the lay reader can easily find explained whether there is a clearcut linguistic differentiation or a weak tendency for a different mix or a transition area on the border, or indeed none of the above. And frankly, such sections would also seem a good place to store the pop culture stuff as well.--Pharos (talk) 06:10, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Wolfdog: While I think having NJ sections on the various dialect articles might be a nice thing to add eventually, I fully support your proposal to develop this as just a regular Disambiguation page for now.--Pharos (talk) 20:58, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

I agreemnewmanqc (talk) 14:48, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

OK, I will do that now. I'll try to leave some of the extra information, but let me know if it's too cluttered for a disambiguation page. I'm not sure how strict the guidelines are for the look of WP:DAB pages. Wolfdog (talk) 20:52, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

It looks good. I made a relatively minor edit mnewmanqc (talk) 01:41, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi! This page looks very helpful and good. I am an editor active in wp:DPL, the project that works towards elimination of ambiguous links in Wikipedia, that is to eliminate unintentional inbound links to disambiguation pages, "dablinks". This page's recent conversion to a disambiguation page put it onto our worklists as one of the top priority problems, as it has lots of dablinks. Via just one template alone, {{Languages of the United States}} there are 35 coming in.

What you've worked out in discussion above is, I think, that the page should be a wp:Set Index Article. Namely it should provide the disambiguation-like service of listing all types of New Jersey English that have wikipedia articles, to help any readers looking for one of those subtopics, PLUS it should cover the general topic of New Jersey English. You want to allow mainspace articles to link to New Jersey English, right? If it is a SIA page that is okay. If it is a disambiguation page, then every link to New Jersey English needs to be redirected to the specific type intended by that link, or completely delinked. I bet in lots of cases an editor/article wants to link to the general topic and doesn't know about subtopics. And, at {{Languages of the United States}}, you don't want to insist that template list all your new subtopics instead of New Jersey English, do you? I doubt it, and others probably would not agree to that.

So, I am going ahead to change it from using template "Disambiguation" to using template "SIA" right now. That will at least temporarily stop the eager disambiguators from going ahead and delinking some/many/all the inbound links to this page. I am very happy to discuss more here. (I will try to watch here, but let me know at my Talk page if I haven't responded promptly to a question or comment directed to me.) sincerely, --doncram 15:10, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Check inbound links

As a topic separate from #Disambiguation, may I suggest that editors active here check all inbound links to this page, and revise some of them? Why? Because some articles might have linked specifically to the "New Jersey English South dialect" or to the "New Jersey English North dialect" topic, which are now redirected to here. Because some of them could intend one of the current subtopics on this page (which does not include North vs. South). Note on template {{Languages of the United States}} I recently found that links for South topic and North topic had been broken somehow (maybe by renaming from "New Jersey English dialects" to "New Jersey English"?) and all went to just one place, this page. And further perhaps in some articles like Gateway Region an expanded discussion making distinctions should be made.

As it is now an SIA article, the editors who focus on disambiguation will not be checking the inbound links to revise any that should go to subtopics, if they can figure out that a subtopic is intended. (That would be a positive service, but they also would be delinking the inbound links entirely, wherever they could not figure which if any subtopic was intended, which would be a disservice). Editors here should check them, at least once, now. I'll list them below here for you, perhaps you'll want to divvy up the list and/or strike out items covered. I hope this helps. --doncram 15:36, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Inbound links from articles as of 15:36 August 26, 2015

(complete list of links from mainspace only, not from Talk or User pages)

Notes:

• Note in some of the following, if you are editing its text, you might not be able to find a link, because they might link only via {{Languages of the United States}} or another template displaying on the page. --doncram
• Searching a page for word "Jersey" works pretty well. --doncram

1. American Sign Language
2. American English
3. Miami
4. Languages of the United States
5. Pittsburgh English
6. Spanish language in the United States
7. French language in the United States (three hits on "Jersey" none to this page; the link appears in nav template only)
8. German language in the United States (appears in nav template only)
9. Cherokee language
10. Martha's Vineyard Sign Language
11. Pennsylvania Dutch English
12. Northern Cities Vowel Shift
13. Anglo-America
14. Southern American English
15. Boston accent
16. Jersey English
17. Miami metropolitan area
18. Baltimore accent
19. Hawai'i Sign Language
20. California English
21. Northeast Pennsylvania English
22. North-Central American English
23. Philadelphia English
24. North American English regional phonology
25. Central Pennsylvania dialect
26. Plains Indian Sign Language
27. Pacific Northwest English
28. Inland Northern American English
29. List of Arthur characters
30. Gateway Region
31. Italian language in the United States
32. Western American English
33. Midland American English
34. New Jersey accent
35. Plateau Sign Language
36. Dialects of New Jersey
37. North Jersey dialect
38. North Jersey accent
39. New Joisey
40. Russian language in the United States
41. Henniker Sign Language
42. Sandy River Valley Sign Language
43. Arabic language in the United States
44. Chinese language in the United States
45. Jersey accent
46. Languages of Illinois
47. Rhoticity in English
48. Miami accent
49. Black American Sign Language

Via the New Jersey English dialects redirect:

1. General American
2. List of dialects of the English language
3. South Jersey
4. North Jersey
5. Jersey Accent
6. List of Yu-Gi-Oh! characters
7. English-language vowel changes before historic /r/
8. Philadelphia English
9. New York
10. Demographics of New York
11. Demographics of Florida
12. Cincinnati

via South Jersey dialect redirect:

1. New York City English

(end of complete list)

What group am I in?

I live in Central Jersey around New Brunswick. Unfortunately, in such event of the choice shown here, I have no idea which dialect I actually speak. The way people speak around here has a few typical key features:

• No fronted oʊ or uː
• Fronted aʊ and even aɪ
• "compass" pronounced as "kʌmpəs"
• Rhoticity
• Traditional ɔ
• Tensed æ before nasal consonants
• Variability before other consonants
• No father-bother merger

And these features usually occur in younger speakers:

• "horrible" pronounced as "hɔrɪbəl"

(with the vowel of horse and born)

• 2 way Mary-marry-merry merger

(Mary and marry are homophones, but merry is pronounced differently.)

Can anyone tell which accent this is most like?, because I can't. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.102.218.18 (talk) 01:45, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Seems like you have some slight influence of NYCE features (more so than Philly features) with the father-bother situation and lack of back vowel fronting; probably, though, your accent would be perceived by most as GA. Wolfdog (talk)

I agree with Wolfdog, and I suspect that you're in a transitional area. Of course no one has really looked at the phonology of north-central NJ beyond the limited data in ANAE. But you appear to know enough to do some research!mnewmanqc (talk) 16:38, 5 November 2016 (UTC)