Talk:Newport railway station/Archive 1

Clarity over name station in article

Offically, the station name is Newport (Gwent) or Newport (South Wales), not just Newport. Is there a reason for this expect for it's large/busier that Newport (essex)? Thanks Glam04023706 18:22, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

• Hmm. Disagree. The name "Newport Gwent" (no brackets) appears on tickets and the name "Newport (South Wales)" on railway information boards to avoid confusion. However, the official name is still Newport, as shown by ALL railway signage on the platforms, foyer, etc. I am still not absolutely sure that the article should have reference to it formerly being known as Newport High St. as I have not found one single person to support this, but there we go. 11:40, 27 February 2007

• • A glance at the national rail documents says it is Newport (Gwent). This appears to be its official operating name and as discussed in the Swansea article (see pointless 3 month long problem with repeated vandalism) the station signage for the public is not the official station name. The book "Severn Tunnel to Newport" confirms that like Swansea the station was historically known as Newport High Street Station. Unlike Swansea I can't find evidence the name was retained for everything but signage. Interestingly the Railtrack documents use the name Newport High Street in odd cases but not normally. Its also occassionally used in local documents/material but unlike Swansea does not seen to be the common form. Currently the rules of the route use the term "Newport (Gwent)' which I would argue is fairly definitive. As an aside the signage is not "Newport (South Wales) as the anonymous writer comments, it is bilingual 81.2.110.250 (talk) 23:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• • • It was opened, on 19 June 1850, as Newport High Street, by the Great Western Railway; but was renamed Newport by British Rail. The Essex station was opened on 30 June 1845, as Newport, by the Eastern Counties Railway; and was renamed Newport (Essex), in 1923, by the London & North Eastern Railway. This information comes from Butt (1995).Pyrotec (talk) 23:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Requested Move

There are many stations around the world called Newport and this will also help to disambiguate between any in the UK. Simply south (talk) 21:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Support - If nothing else it will differentiate between the stations in Gwent and Essex. Newport (Essex) may only be a relatively small village, however the station is still fairly well used. TicketMan - Talk - contribs 23:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Support - move this page and turn the resultant redirect into a disambiguation. See Bramley railway station, Millbrook railway station and Whitchurch railway station for similar examples. – Tivedshambo (talk) 00:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

If it goes ahead, i will redirect the original to a more general disambiguation page. Simply south (talk) 11:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Support, but I think the move should be to "Newport (Wales) railway station": calling it "Newport (Gwent)" will cause loads of trouble, and is outdated anyway. --RFBailey (talk) 03:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Monmouthsire\Glamorgan? I didn't know it was there before. I thought disambiguated stations went by the county\city\council area in which they are in (for example, the two Howwoods). But i am not sure it would work as Newport (Newport) railway station. Gwent is not as outdated and is still used in some aspects. Simply south (talk) 11:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I've just experimented with my TRIBUTE terminal - screen shows Newport S. Wales, and the resultant ticket shows the same. Perhaps the best solution would be Newport (South Wales) railway station or Newport (S. Wales) railway station. TicketMan - Talk - contribs 15:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Neutral but if it is moved, I strongly agree that Gwent is outdated and shouldn't be used. Also Newport (Newport) is justsilly. I think Newport (South Wales) is the best option as that term is used by rail companies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Welshleprechaun (talk • contribs) 17:54, 24 January 2008

Comment, Agree with the argument for the need for a disambiguation page. Also agree that Newport (Gwent) is outdated. To my knowledge, there is only one Newport in Wales and Newport (South Wales) railway station could imply there is another Newport railway station in Wales. I would favour a move to Newport (Wales) railway station. Sloman (talk) 18:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

There is also a Newport in Pembrokeshire (see here - Streetmap), although that is arguably also in South Wales. I feel that using the term 'Wales' is a little too general - using 'South Wales' narrows it down somewhat, and reflects what is used by the train operators. TicketMan - Talk - contribs 18:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment: As long as Newport, Pembrokeshire doesn't have a railway station then there should be no problem Welshleprechaun (talk) 18:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Oppose - this is clearly the predominant use of the name, disambiguation beyond the existing hatnote is unnecessary. 90.203.45.168 (talk) 20:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

If the parenthetical is not official and a disambiguation is approved, then the proper title at Wikipedia would be Newport railway station (Gwent), Newport railway station (Wales), &c. with the disambiguator at the end as is the case with Newport railway station (IoWCR Isle of Wight) now. — AjaxSmack 16:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you're right about that, AjaxSmack. It sounds as if the options on the table are

• Newport railway station (Gwent)
• Newport railway station (South Wales)
• Newport railway station (Wales)
• ... any others?

Which of these do people prefer most, or least? I get the impression many people dislike "Gwent", and that South Wales is the common use, but is a slightly stronger-than-necessary disambiguation, as we have no Newport railway station (North Wales). Does that sound about right? -GTBacchus^(talk) 01:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I am beginning to think that there is no consensus on where the location-in-brackets goes. Simply south (talk) 15:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

... and so you moved it anyway. The official tag used by the railway is "South Wales", and so "Newport (Wales)" is nonsensical. I am still also unconvinced of the need for a dab tag in the first place - this station was clearly the primary use of the term "Newport railway station". 90.203.45.168 (talk) 17:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

And moved it to a title that is a bit inappropriate for Wikipedia (the disambiguator should go at the end). There is evidence that "South Wales" is used officially so let's send it to Newport railway station (South Wales) for now. — AjaxSmack 07:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

This is disambiguation for the sake of it! This is by far the busiest of any of the stations with nearly 2 million passengers per annum, 10 times the passengers of the Essex one. The IoWCR one is defunct and the Melbourne one seems to have no passenger figures for it at all! Reverting move. Owain (talk) 10:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Why are we page-move-warring over this? This article should either be Newport High Street railway station or Newport railway station. The former is historically correct and avoids unnecessary disambiguation. The latter is also acceptable as it is by far the more well-used station by an order of magnitude! Owain (talk) 13:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Looking at other examples, I'm not sure whether it should be Newport High Street railway station because doing a quick searching on Google, although it yields 132k results, none of them call the station by that name apart from Wikipedia-related matches. This name isn't used officially by National Rail, Arriva Train Wales or First Great Western: NR and FGW call it Newport (South Wales) while Arriva call it Newport (Gwent) and Network Rail just Newport. This certainly makes finding a name awkward.

There has to be disambiguation because even though Newport in Essex is in a small village, it is still well used with about 0.2 million in comparison with the Welsh station's 2 million - not bad either, considering that the village is 70 time smaller than the Welsh town. Normally the county is used to disambiguate e.g. Ashford (Surrey) and Bramley (Hants) but the National Rail website seems to be using this as an exception. I suggest it is either moved to "Newport (Gwent)" or "Newport (South Wales)". Any thoughts as to which one?

Discussion from May

The other issue is where to put the diambiguation as the examples I showed there put it between the name and the "railway station" but sometimes it is put at the end in brackets such as Richmond station (London). I prefer the former arrangement, especially as the Essex station uses it. Anywikiuser (talk) 20:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

This station easily qualifies as the primary use of the name "Newport" in a railway context, being as it is the main station in Wales' third city. As is the usual standard for geographic disambiguation on Wikipedia, the smaller should be at Newport railway station, Essex. Also, remember the entry/exit number is just that - entry/exit. You need to consider where people may be coming from. Bristol and South Wales have a combined population of around 1.5-2 million, so that's roughly one journey per year for every person. Compared to London and the South East, with its population of 11 million or more, which works out to roughly one journey per year for every 60 - the same order of magnitude as the ratio between the population of the two places. 81.110.106.169 (talk) 21:45, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I sort of get your point: this station means much more to the local region than the small one in Essex. In addition, I expect the Essex station gets a large amount of revenue for commuters whereas a wider range of people use this station. Even so this would be difficult to measure. I expect that someone trying to look up the Essex station would probably be aware that there is another one in Wales whereas someone looking up this station wouldn't be aware of the Essex and Melbourne stations, let alone the two defunct ones on the Isle of Wight and Shropshire. From that point of view, Newport railway station is sensible, but it is also 'wrong' because Newport railway station could mean all 5. In that case, I suggest is should be named Newport (South Wales) railway station or Newport railway station (South Wales) but make Newport railway station redirect here with a link to the disambiguation page. Anywikiuser (talk) 10:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:DAB is pretty clear on this - any tag here is spurious because it is clearly and indisputably the "primary use" of the main title, and the dab page belongs at Newport railway station (disambiguation). We have standards for naming articles for a reason. 81.110.106.169 (talk) 11:39, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Well since we're really discussing whether it should have (South Wales) in it or not, so shall I might as well move it to Newport (South Wales) railway station so it can be changed later if necessary? There doesn't seem to be any support for keeping it as it is. Anywikiuser (talk) 14:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The current location being poor is probably an incentive to bring this to a proper resolution. 81.110.106.169 (talk) 19:10, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Requested move 6/2008

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Newport High Street railway station → Newport railway station — Per WP:DAB, clearly the "primary use" of the name —81.110.106.169 (talk) 19:18, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support: We can sort out the need for DAB later. Anywikiuser (talk) 17:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support: No sign of usage by the station itself, rail companies, Network Rail or locally. Welshleprechaun (talk) 14:25, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support: Name not even used by any TOC or Network Rail, Needs to be moved to reflect actual name. Shazz0r (talk) 22:28, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
• Support: The NHS name is not used officially or by anyone locally. When is this change actually likely to be made, as it seems this has been being discussed for a long time? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eldumpo (talk • contribs) 10:01, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The Wikipedia:DAB says that the Primary Use of the article doesn't need disambiguation in the title but if there is a lot of discussion over if there is a "Primary Use" and what it is, then all should have disambiguation. Anywikiuser (talk) 17:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved--no consensus that this particular meaning is the clear primary one, so leave generic DAB page at the simple title. DMacks (talk) 18:03, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

New move

 Done In the process of moving it, just waiting wikipedia to remove the old redirect. Should hopefully be Newport railway station later today Shazz0r (talk) 16:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

 Done Renamed Newport (South Wales) Railway station to tie in with the name on http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/NWP/details.html Which should be considered the official name. Redirect set-up for Newport railway station > here. Old name of High street still forwards to here (for now). Shazz0r (talk) 16:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Undone. Your unilateral action is inconsistent with your stated source. The address of the station in your linked page is just "Newport railway station". There is no consensus for the move. Owain (talk) 21:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Moved back to Newport SW station. How dare you move this back without discussion after it was agreed to be moved because of Wikipedia's naming conventions. If you re-move this page back, it is purely vandalism. Outline your objection if you feel so strongly on it Welshleprechaun (talk) 23:24, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, keep it as it is now, it's quite clearly vandalism if you move it back. And incase you missed it, the sources first major part of the link calls the station "Station Facilities: Newport (S. Wales) (NWP)". There is clear support for a name other than "high street" which no one recognises anywhere. Keep it as it is. Shazz0r (talk) 00:17, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but the vandalism here is unilaterally moving a page to a title that nobody has agreed on. Where is this alleged consensus? WP:RM shows no such consensus. The above discussion shows no such consensus. As I have already pointed out, your source both contradicts itself and contradicts the other sources on this page. The nationalrail.co.uk page is NOT a list of official station names. Owain (talk) 09:10, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

See the article on Stratford station to see what I mean. It has the same sort of explanation as this page. I.e. Common name "Stratford" or "Stratford Regional" then an explanation that National Rail enquiries uses "Stratford (London)" to disambiguate it form Stratford-upon-Avon. The page itself is kept at the common name in keeping with Wikipedia practice. Owain (talk) 09:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

You know what, i'm just not going to bother. Calling something a name thats not used ANYWHERE is obviously the right way to go... Not. Shazz0r (talk) 14:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I have got no problem with the result of the consensus, to return this article to where it was originally (i.e. Newport railway station). That's not what you did though was it? Owain (talk) 14:46, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

No, i gave it it's official name due to a WP:Admin moving the redirect of newport railway station to this article as i requested. Shazz0r (talk) 14:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Newport is NEVER referred to as High Street. That was it's formed name. This is like Swansea station, where it used to be called High Street but there are always self-important users trying to promote undeserved importance of their town. The move was agreed on because this is the correct and official name of the station. Alternative name usage is outlined in the article. You've been told not to move, to discuss first but ignoring it is just vandalism. Welshleprechaun (talk) 14:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh and if you dont believe "Newport (South wales)" is the official/ most common name, i'd go tell network rail they've got it wrong in all there published literature. Shazz0r (talk) 15:00, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

This is a nonsense. The consensus was to return this page to its original name Newport railway station. Because Network Rail choose to use "(South Wales)" on the rail enquiries web site does not make that the official name! This goes against not only the nationalrail.co.uk page (that states" Newport Railway Station" as the address), but also Wikipedia policies - namely Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) and Wikipedia:Disambiguation. This is the primary topic and its common name is Newport railway station. That should be the name of the article. Owain (talk) 15:43, 6 December 2008 (UTC)