Talk:Nicholas Wade

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RfC about grandfather[edit]

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Consensus to include. By the numbers, eight voices yes, four no and one possibly. Even more important is what they say. The "no" voices are mostly based on WP:UNDUE, but that is relative (ahem) to the length of the article. If this were a five sentence article, one about this could be too much, but as it is substantially longer, there is room. The "yes" voices point out that Wade himself thinks it's important since he wrote about it in multiple sources. True, it's not directly related to his controversial books but, as several people write, neither is where he was born or where he went to school, which is standard biography article information. Two write that this would only fit in an early or personal life section, but such a section needs to start somewhere. No doubt its other content would be similarly not directly relevant to his notability. --GRuban (talk) 15:25, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Should this article mention that Nicholas Wade is the grandson of Lawrence Beesley, a survivor of the sinking of the Titanic? --Animalparty! (talk) 18:18, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Survey[edit]

  • Yes. It's an innocuous fact and improves the article. --Animalparty! (talk) 19:20, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • No. It's insignificant and doesn't belong, per WP:UNDUE and WP:PROPORTION. The OP's claim that the grandfather is relevant to Wade's biography and writing is unsupported by any RS, and, when challenged, the OP has been unable to find a source for that claim. The addition of a relative to a BLP is not the right occasion for WP:IAR, despite the OP's fervent desire to ignore policy. NightHeron (talk) 19:59, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • No While there is plenty of significant coverage about both persons, including some coverage about the elder by the younger, there is nothing here that would substantiate more than a trivia-like factoid, and the only reason this even seems to be on the table is because the ancestor survived a famous shipwreck (which does not make the family connection any more or less noteworthy, and does not justify inclusion). Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of genealogical factoids (in other words: it being true, or even interesting to some, is not enough; and Family histories should be presented only where appropriate to support the reader's understanding of a notable topic.). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:19, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Possibly This was already discussed above by me for Wade's grandfather and the Titanic. A similar issue arose for Fitz Eugene Dixon Jr. and the connections of the Widener family with the Titanic. His maternal grandfather George Dunton Widener and uncle Harry Elkins Widener perished on the Titanic and are mentioned in the article, unlike his maternal grandmother Eleanor Elkins Widener, who survived the disaster. (Note: an edit to the bio on Fitz Jr. was subsequently made removing all reference to the Titanic.[1]) Mathsci (talk) 01:06, 8 November 2021 (UTC) refactored Mathsci, (talk) 09:39, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Mathsci: And that's where I don't understand the reason for mentioning this. Why are only those that perished "noteworthy"? If the whole that can be said is merely "X and Y were [family relation] of Z", that that speaks against inclusion, since we usually don't point out random historical footnotes. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:34, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sure - per animalparty given that he wrote about the relationship in The New York Times. It doesn't matter if there hasn't been any mention of his parents yet. Family history supports my understanding of the topic, especially if it is a link between two notable people. Morbidthoughts (talk) 03:03, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes Inclusion of notable grandparents is normal routine information found in thousands and thousands of biographic articles. I think the names of his parents should be included too as that’s an essential part of a good Early Life section. Thriley (talk) 17:00, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes - Sure. By our own rules, if somebody has a Wikipedia article then that person is notable. And mentioning notable relations in the Early life / Personal life section is the norm across countless biographical articles. Not sure why this would be different. PraiseVivec (talk) 16:42, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    "By our own rules", Family histories should be presented only where appropriate to support the reader's understanding of a notable topic. Other articles not following this is a sign that other articles need clean-up, not that this one should be made to conform to the broken model. No relevant reason has been given how this trivial factoid improves a reader's understanding of this biography, which is quite unrelated to the Titanic (if, say, Wade was a major figure on the topic of the Titanic and its sinking, this might be relevant. But here? clearly not). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:30, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That quote is referring to detailing someone’s genealogy. We aren’t talking about distant ancestors here. This is a member of what I would call his immediate family. Thriley (talk) 22:25, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Immediate family is usually parents and their children, at least as I understand it. But let's not get bogged down in definition. If all we can say is "X was the grandfather" and (a bit of COATRACK, since this is not an article about the grandfather) "X was on the Titanic", then this is nothing more than relative trivia, and provides no otherwise pertinent information to the reader (I've already tried to think up of many examples in which way this link could be noteworthy: neither of them seem to fit the situation here). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:29, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a 7 minute video of Wade commenting on his grandfather, produced for The Economist, which mean The Economist is highlighting this aspect. And although I can't seem to find the audio, Wade was interviewed in a 2012 radio program on WAMC, a program which also featured Daniel Allen Butler, Bob Ballard, and Hampton Sides, all speaking on various aspects of the Titanic. While unfortunately I can't verify the context, this and The Economist video give at least some additional credence to the idea that Wade's grandfather is a known and noteworthy facet of Wade's public image, albeit a lesser one. And again, he has written of his grandfather several times. It's not entirely irrelevant trivia like his dog's name or favorite ice cream flavor. --Animalparty! (talk) 00:19, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not yet, I support inclusion of relevant facts about his parents, but him being his grandfather is a stretch, in my opinion. However, if the section on personal life at some point grows to be sufficiently broad in subtopics and deep in treatment of them, I support a brief mention per the reasons argued by Animal party. Forich (talk) 04:00, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes it's an encyclopedic fact about a thing which has affected Wade's life in a few ways. Deserves 1-2 sentences max. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 11:03, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes Nicholas is a writer and has written articles about the titanic and his grandfather, that being said I agree with Shibbolethink, it should only be a sentence or two at most. Tepkunset (talk) 15:41, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes - Although it does sound a bit trivial, the fact that it was his grandfather and Wade has written about the Titanic warrants inclusion. Meatsgains(talk) 22:26, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • No - This fact is utterly irrelevant to his notability. If he was famous enough that biographical information such as "early life" sections found in other articles should be included, then fine. But his notability is not regarding his life, but his controversial opinions and books. Fieari (talk) 00:03, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes of course. Francesco espo (talk) 03:39, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

  • Comment a diff demonstrating the change is [2]. It seems odd to mention his grandfather while not mentioning either of his parents. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 18:50, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The parents are named in Wade's Contemporary Authors entry, but I am somewhat ambivalent as to whether they need to be named in this article. Style wise, I think that mentioning parents, with mother's maiden name, leads more naturally to a mention of the grandfather. But given the resistance to including a notable grandfather, I figure one step at a time for now. --Animalparty! (talk) 19:03, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Background: See discussion above, Talk:Nicholas_Wade#Grandfather, for some background, and a previous discussion in May, 2021 regarding the addition of this fact. My view is that this statement improves the article, fleshing out an otherwise meager early life section, and is relevant to Wade's biography and writing, although of course not the dominant aspect. And even if meticulous calculations prove this statement is in fact given 1% undue emphasis compared to its prominence in reliable sources, this is a reasonable occasion to ignore the rules. Ancestry is not even a "point of view", so claims of WP:NPOV violations need to be tempered. --Animalparty! (talk) 19:20, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Animalparty: Is this still ongoing? I’d say the information should be added based upon the current comments. Thriley (talk) 06:17, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Thriley:. Beats me. I cleared a lot of detritus from my watchlist a while back. I wouldn't dare close this myself lest someone bite my head off because sub-clause F-87 of the Wiki rulebook wasn't followed exactly. --Animalparty! (talk) 06:26, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

COVID-19 Conspiracy theory[edit]

RE: "While some experts have supported taking the lab leak possibility seriously, the majority consider it very unlikely, calling it "speculative and unsupported".

Consider dropping this quote since Wade writes that a lab leak by an accident could have happened, and an accident cannot be a conspiracy. Plus, given the US Intelligence Community report and the work of Matt Ridley and Alania Chan suggests there is a lot of room for debate based on science, timeliness and evidence collected. 173.72.254.24 (talk) 00:53, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That statement is correct as written. The claimed conspiracy would not have been the leak, but rather the alleged cover-up afterwards. NightHeron (talk) 11:24, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Given the congressional hearings, email leaks, and wide spread reporting about Fauci's premature publication of journal articles in the Lancet and Nature that concluded that the lab leak hypothesis was extremely unlikely when many on his own team believed it should be taken seriously, to describe the lab leak or the cover-up as a conspiracy theory seems misleading. 97.120.181.231 (talk) 00:00, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Politicians' shenanigans are not relevant for evaluation of scientific theories. See Indiana Pi Bill. --Hob Gadling (talk)
That statement is not correct as written, although perhaps it can be repaired. It contains a quote and and WP:RS/QUOTE says "... it is important to make clear the actual source of the text ...", but the statement doesn't make that clear. The actual source is Kristian Andersen according to politico.com, talking about the leak. So the repair job could be: ... very unlikely, with Kristian Andersen calling the lab leak theory "speculative and unsupported". Alternatives? Peter Gulutzan (talk) 18:45, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure attribution is necessary. There are additional sources which essentially say the same thing, see WP:NOLABLEAK. Those are all mostly secondary, peer-reviewed papers in reputable journals, and they say the same thing as Andersen. Attributing might give the false impression that the theory being "speculative and unsupported" is just one scientist's opinion, when there are in fact plenty of others writing (and getting reviewed and accepted by their peers) the same thing. However, there's nothing that prevents avoiding the quote entirely and rewording, which would resolve the issue. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:00, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"speculative and unsupported" is actually also the view of the scientific body writ large, per our best sources. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 06:42, 12 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You think they used those words? Where? Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:40, 12 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The most relevant bits are quoted at WP:NOLABLEAK, but you're free to go dig through the sources yourself and see the whole context behind. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 13:59, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Even if the WP:NOLABLEAK essay contained the words, it wouldn't trump a guideline. And it's not my job to dig up support for a dubious claim. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:29, 13 March 2022 (UTC) Update: RandomCanadian rewrote to avoid the quote, so this argument no longer matters. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:31, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is no longer the case that the lab leak theory is merely speculative. It is leading theory of the department of energy and the FBI. 97.120.181.231 (talk) 00:02, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What those people think is not relevant for evaluation of scientific theories. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:28, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The scientists at the department of energy are well regarded scientists. What is your basis for thinking it is not the leading theory of scientists? The former head of the CDC -- a scientist -- believes it and now scientists consider it at least as likely as any other. The Sunday Times's article quotes many scientists. 69.121.121.167 (talk) 12:39, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, you used the word "scientists" five times. Now I am convinced.
No, of course I am not. That is very naive reasoning. You need to check WP:RS to find out what Wikipedia accepts as reliable sources. Also, you need to learn that reliability of a sources depends on the subject. Also, you need to learn that the overwhelming majority of scientists are experts in one tiny field and completely ignorant laypeople in all the rest of science. There is no connection between energy and viruses, and there is no way of checking the reason why some secret service person has a certain opinion. Secrecy is inimical to science.
Please take note that this is not a forum. --Hob Gadling (talk) 13:32, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes see also WP:RS/AC. We would want well-regarded secondary review articles that are peer-reviewed by experts and published in topic-relevant expert-edited scientific journals. And we definitely do not have that for the view espoused by the IP. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 14:19, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So are we still sticking with this language? Really? 72.94.251.88 (talk) 04:10, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism-heavy lead[edit]

@Generalrelative: I fail to see how the current lead is a fair reflection of the subject and their career as a science writer. I added the notably award winning work as a first step in addressing this imbalance. Nicholas Wade is 81 years old. His first lead 'controversy' is from 2014, by which point he was already 72, so the lead basically breezes over his first 50 years as a science writer - not naming a single one of his notable works, not least Before the Dawn (book) (the one I added), which has its own GA page - to focus on a single notable book and a single less-notable article that caused some controversy. As it stands, the lead doesn't just include significant controversies, per MOS:LEAD, but is mostly that. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:20, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I respectfully disagree with your (implicit) reading of WP:NPOV here. This edit added more characters about a minor award for which no WP:SECONDARY sources have been provided than about either of the major controversies for which Wade is primarily known. It's fine to include a mention of this award in the article body, but it's a profound misreading of P&G to claim that we're required to scrape the bottom of the barrel like that to ensure that we say nice things about him. As I'm sure you know, Wikipedia articles are meant to summarize reliable secondary sources in WP:DUE proportion. Which means that if the vast majority of the secondary coverage this person has received is critical or discusses criticism of his work, the article as a whole has to reflect that, as does the lead. Regardless of what he got up to in his early career (which we do summarize in the lead's first paragraph), what Wade is most notable for is pushing unsubstantiated / WP:FRINGE ideas, most egregiously in his book A Troublesome Inheritance. It's a shame for him but it is what it is. Generalrelative (talk) 05:40, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not scraping any barrel. It's a notable award, with its own page, but ok, fair enough, scratch that ... how about a mention at least of the notable work, with its own GA page, that won the award (without mentioning the award)? I stand by my view that it's frankly ridiculous to have three lines in the lead on his first 50 years of activity. It also flies in the face of balance with respect to the balance of contents on the page itself, which is about 40% his early life and career, 40% troublesome inheritance, and 20% the Covid stuff. The lead, after the opening sentence, gives about 25 words to his first 70 years of life, 25 words to troublesome inheritance, and 40 words to Covid - the latter overemphasis being one that frankly smacks of WP:NEWS. Wade may be flawed, but this is indeed not neutral. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:59, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate your willingness to compromise. My understanding, however, is that NPOV requires us to apportion our coverage in proportion to how much coverage is given in reliable WP:SECONDARY sources. I was just now going over the article Before the Dawn (book), which did indeed receive GA status 10 years ago but has a lot of problems still, including very few such reliable secondary sources. Many of the "reviews" quoted there are either just blurbs or are written by journalists (or worse). Actual biological anthropologists, publishing an actual review in Nature, tore it to shreds. So I'm really not convinced that the book is super significant. Can you show me any secondary coverage of the award which would indicate that it's considered noteworthy by anyone other than the issuing organization? Regarding the COVID stuff, I'm not especially attached to it either, but I do think it's notable enough to remain in the lead, and if we mention it we need to mention that it's a minority view among scientists. My main concern, however, is that we don't bury the main thing for which Wade is actually known, the fact that an unprecedented 143 senior subject-matter experts signed a letter condemning his misrepresentation of their work. That is the one thing that is genuinely unique about this individual. We must not do our readers the disservice of burying that fact beneath a facade of niceties. Generalrelative (talk) 06:40, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Update: I saw that a consensus was achieved a while back to switch to a slightly shorter version of the COVID language (see Talk:Nicholas Wade/Archive 5). Not sure when / why it was reverted but I restored that version. So at least that's marginally shorter now. Generalrelative (talk) 07:03, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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