Talk:Ninth generation of video game consoles

Note on this page

Per discussion at WT:VG, we should not yet start a ninth generation page until we have both 1) physical hardware people can see and touch on display from both MS and Sony and 2) tech specifications and importantly comparisons between the two products. Just because both systems may have been listed as "ninth generation" in other sources does not work, until there is actual comparison to work from to establish that the press are treating these as a new system. (Wikipedia may have created the use of numbered generation via WP:CITOGENESIS and we want to avoid being that instigator again.) --Masem (t) 20:46, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 13 June 2020

The section name at Home video game console has changed. The redirect should go to Home video game console#Current consoles as "Future" is no longer the section name. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 23:49, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Pinging @Sergecross73: as the protecting admin. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 23:51, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done though there still needs to be a "future" header since XSX and PS5 are not the end-all to console systems. --Masem (t) 01:23, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

* Upcoming consoles isn't the intended target's title anymore. It still has to go to Current consoles per Favre1fan93's request. - MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 17:44, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Fixed. --Masem (t) 17:52, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 12 November 2020

The ninth generation of video games has already started. The first 8 generations are visible and have wikipedia pages, however this one (which contains the PS5 and the Xbox series X and S does not have a page. Please let us create and edit one, or make it as adminstrators. This is important for the documentation of the video game industry. Thanks, Anastasia. 11/12/2020 Annethornde (talk) 19:43, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. This is under discussion or brief comments across multiple pages, and as stated, this request is a plea to create or allow creation, not a specific edit to be made. Masem this probably needs to become a more centralized discussion somewhere with links from the common pages it comes up from. -- ferret (talk) 22:54, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Central discussion if to add 9th gen

Please see WT:VG#The dreaded 9th Gen discussion... to discuss if we should consider going forward with calling out the 9th generation of video game consoles. --Masem (t) 01:01, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Current arrangement

I think it does a good job of outlining the current situation. I'm sure people who prefer clear-cut, black and white designations will have reservations, but I think it's the best we can do with the reality of the industry and the sourcing available right now. Good work everyone involved. Sergecross73 msg me 14:00, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

My intent was to basically try to sweep the Switch problem under the rug, to speak but at least acknowledge it is still there, until we have a point where we could commit to it better. --Masem (t) 14:13, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, it's exactly what I had in mind when I suggested it being mentioned somehow. It should help. Ignoring it would lead to endless adding and removing, which likely would have entailed much more poorly conceived content too, so this is for the best I think. At least until the industry decides how it wants to handle it. Or maybe this is just how it'll be too - as much as we try to avoid it, the world does look to us for guidance on this sort of thing too. Sergecross73 msg me 15:32, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 March 2021

I have better pictures of the consoles 109.78.69.169 (talk) 10:11, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

As long as the images are your own, or free to use, upload them at Special:Upload. However, to access the upload wizard, you need to make an account WikiMacaroons^Cinnamon? 12:09, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 March 2021

The Nintendo Switch doesn't belong on this page as it is an 8th generation console. It's already listed in the 8th generation wiki page. Thanks! 96.244.133.50 (talk) 07:31, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: The article never claims to be a 9th gen console. It just states that it remains competitive. It is relevant information. —  HELLKNOWZ   ▎TALK 11:14, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

The Nintendo Switch Should Be Included

The Nintendo Switch should be included as a 9th generation console. The Nintendo Wii U (and 3DS) is an 8th generation console, and the Nintendo Switch is its successor, thus starting the 9th generation of video game consoles. The line which explains why the Nintendo Switch was not included does not have any citation and does not make any sense. "The positioning of these consoles as high-performance computing devices place competitors such as the Nintendo Switch and cloud-gaming services such as Stadia and Amazon Luna as overlaps from the prior eighth generation of video game consoles." Every home console release from Sony and Microsoft has focused heavily on performance, and computing features have been prominent since at least the 7th generation. If generations are based on raw performance, then the Nintendo Wii would be closer to being a 6th generation console than a 7th generation console, and the Nintendo Wii U would be closer to being a 7th generation console than an 8th generation console. I think that the timing of console releases is more significant. The 1st generation of consoles had 8 years in between the launch of the first console of that generation and the launch of the last console of that generation. The 2nd generation had 6 years between launches. The 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th generations of consoles all had 3 years between the launches of major consoles in their respective generations. It was only in the 7th and 8th generations that all major home consoles were released only 1 year apart (setting the Switch aside). If we look at the launch date of the Nintendo Switch in comparison to the launch date of what we can all agree is the first major home console launch of the 8th generation, the Wii U, and the launch date of what Wikipedia considers to be the first major home console launch of the 9th generation, the Xbox Series X/Series S, the Switch was launched 1,566 days or 4.3 years after the Wii U and 1,348 days or 3.7 years before the launch of the Xbox Series X/S. So, chronologically, the Switch is closer to the launch of 9th generation consoles than the launch of 8th generation consoles. And, of course, there is the fact that the Switch is Nintendo's successor to the Wii U. Looking at all of the Wikipedia articles, the only example of the successor to a console being part of the same generation as the console that preceded it is the Atari 5200, successor to the Atari 2600, and it was only on the market for 2 years. The Wii U was on the market before the launch of its successor for longer than the original Xbox. The Wii U was on the market for 4.3 years before the Switch launched while the original Xbox was on the market for 4.02 years before the launch of the Xbox 360. So, in conclusion, in the context of video game history, 2 consoles of the same generation launching 3.7 years apart is not particularly unusual, and, in any case, the 3.7 years separating the launch of the Switch and the launch of the Xbox Series X/S is shorter than the 4.3 years separating the launch of the Wii U and the Switch. The justification for the Switch not being a part of the 9th generation provided in this article is illogical. If raw performance were the most important factor, then the Nintendo Wii would be part of the 6th generation and the Nintendo Wii U would be part of the 7th generation. And, finally, the only video game console in video game history to be considered as part of the same generation as its predecessor is the Atari 5200, which was something of an anomaly, given its extremely short time on the market. This article simply does not provide any reasonable justification for the Nintendo Switch to not be considered as the start of the 9th generation. Classifying the Wii U and the Switch to both be 8th generation consoles simply ignores video game history and basic logic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by User12345123 (talk • contribs) 00:17, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Generations as defined by scholarly literature are not based on the technical progression, but how the economic progression of consoles are presented - what consoles competed against each other. By that competition, consoles in the same generation will have similar features but that's a result of, not a defining feature of a generation. To that end, the Switch is currently and clearly an eighth generation console - it competed against the PS4 and Xbox One. It may also be a ninth generation console if is considered equal to the PS5 and Xbox Series X/S consoles (and if these Pro rumors are true, that specific version may be the 9th generation version). However, we simply don't have enough data yet to make that assessment - the COVID-delayed rollout of the newer consoles are slowing down the market changes and adjustments. --Masem (t) 00:40, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree with your statement that “generations as defined by scholarly literature are not based on the technical progression,” however, that statement is in direct conflict with the justification given in this article for the Switch to not be a 9th generation console. That justification being: “The positioning of these consoles as high-performance computing devices places competitors such as the Nintendo Switch and cloud-gaming services such as Stadia and Amazon Luna as overlaps from the prior eighth generation of video game consoles.” You have stated that the primary factor in deciding generations is what consoles were competing with one another, yet the Nintendo Switch is currently competing against the PS5 and the Xbox Series X/S. Given the wide range of launch dates within generations that I highlighted in my original comment in this thread, obviously consoles will compete with consoles from the previous or future generation for some period of their life cycle. The Sega Genesis/Mega Drive competed with the Nintendo Entertainment System of the previous generation for the first 2 years of its life cycle. The original PlayStation competed with the Super Nintendo Entertainment System of the previous generation for the first 1.5 years of its life cycle. The Sega Dreamcast competed with the original PlayStation and the Nintendo 64 of the previous generation for the first 1.5 and 3 years of its life cycle, respectively. In fact, the Sega Dreamcast was discontinued before the Nintendo GameCube even launched, and they are of the same generation (granted, the Dreamcast had a short life cycle). So, clearly other factors are taken into account when there is overlap between generations. Doug Bowser, president of Nintendo of America, stated that the Nintendo Switch is halfway through its lifecycle in December 2020. So, that means that, based on Nintendo’s plans, by the end of the Switch’s life cycle, it will have competed against the PS5 and Xbox Series X/S for roughly half of its lifespan. You state that the Switch may also be considered as a 9th generation console, however I will point out that no console in video game history has ever been considered as part of two generations, regardless of the distance between launch dates. However, there are many examples of consoles competing with consoles from previous or future generations for years at a time. And, the potential release of a “Switch Pro” is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. The Switch Pro would simply be a revision of the Nintendo Switch. It would still play Switch games, meaning that it would be in the Switch family of consoles and thus in the same generation as the regular Nintendo Switch. Whether it’s the top-loader NES, the PS2 Slim, the PS4 Pro etc., console revisions are always in the same generation as the original model. The matter is very simple. By the end of its life cycle, the Nintendo Switch will have competed with the 8th generation for half of its life cycle, and the 9th generation for half of its life cycle, according to top level Nintendo executives. The Wii U is Nintendo’s 8th generation home console, and the Nintendo Switch, its successor, is their 9th generation console. Only once has a video game console ever been considered as part of the same generation as its predecessor, the Atari 5200, which had an extremely short life cycle. Comparatively, a video game console launching years before competition from that generation and competing with consoles from the previous generation in that time is quite commonplace in video game history. The Nintendo Switch started the 9th generation and currently competes with the other 9th generation consoles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by User12345123 (talk • contribs)

We simply do not have nowhere close to enough sourcing to make this claim, and given that Wikipedia itself is currently part of the reason that console generations are numbered as such, we're not going to making any steps that way without proper sourcing. With the 9th gen only 6 months old, there's simply not enough time to be able for reliable sourcing to assess the Switch properly. --Masem (t) 04:12, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I get the feeling that you haven’t actually read my comments, since you don’t address any of the points that I make. You say that you don’t have enough sourcing to classify the Nintendo Switch as a 9th generation console, yet you have no problem classifying it as an 8th generation console without any sourcing. Whether you classify it as 8th or 9th gen, you are making a claim that has to be justified. I would argue that classifying it as an 8th generation console is more bold, since it runs counter to virtually all precedent established by video game history. But, in any case, your justification for classifying the Nintendo Switch as 8th generation is presented without any citation. That justification being: “The positioning of these consoles as high-performance computing devices places competitors such as the Nintendo Switch and cloud-gaming services such as Stadia and Amazon Luna as overlaps from the prior eighth generation of video game consoles.” There is a degree of subjectivity in these classifications. What you are doing here is essentially expressing an opinion without citation but presenting it in a factual manner. The justification used for classifying the Switch as 8th generation also runs counter to a point that you made in this conversation. Specifically, the point that generations are not defined by technical progression. I think that you (or someone) should provide a justification that is more in line with your thinking and the academic sources that you mention. And, it should reflect the degree of subjectivity involved in this matter, rather than being presented authoritatively. And, if this is a topic where finding a proper citation is difficult, then at the very least, “citation needed” should be added after the statement that justifies the Switch being categorized as an 8th generation console to reflect and bring attention to the fact that this is something that is being expressed without any citation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by User12345123 (talk • contribs) 22:18, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

The sourcing about how generations and that they are defined by competitive changes and not technology can be found at History of video game consoles#Console generations. And we have the sourcing about the iffyness of the Switch's position in those generations in this article in the body (not lede, its not required there). It's established its an 8th, but it may also be a 9th but there's just not enough to say that now. --Masem (t) 22:32, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Seconding Masem here. Everyone's a self-proclaimed expert in the area, but the truth is that the industry just isn't certain on the matter yet. Sergecross73 msg me 01:20, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

If it's uncertain than why has wikipedia defaulted to a classification that runs counter to common sense? seems like you should stick to established precedent if uncertain 2600:1700:1D60:1A50:71ED:3229:8292:74F7 (talk) 05:21, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Again, using that logic, the Sega Genesis should be considered 3rd generation, since it originally competed with the NES. Which, again is untrue. The Switch competing with the higher end models of the PS4 and Xbox One, not even the base model, but the high end versions, mind you, doesn't change the fact that it's the next generation console after the Wii U, the 8th generation console by Nintendo. You're arguing semantics here. If you wanted to be consistent with your ruling, you'd put the Genesis as a 3rd Generation console, with its initial direct competitor the NES, if you're arguing the Switch is an 8th generation console MetaPlanet (talk) 23:26, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Creating strange hypotheticals no one is arguing for isn't helping your case... Sergecross73 msg me 00:10, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

What strange hypothetical? It's just a fact that the Genesis originally existed to compete with the NES. The timeline works to reinstate this fact. The NES released in 1983, with the Famicom version, and 1985 with the more well known blocky version, and the Genesis released in 1988. The SNES didn't release until 1990 - 1991. In line with the timespan between the release of the Switch and PS5/Xbox Series X, that you lot are using as an argument to say the Switch isn't a 9th generation console. A similar thing can be said of the Sega Dreamcast. It released in 1998. And the competition at the time was the N64, the Playstation, and even Sega's own Sega Saturn. The 6th generation didn't actually become competition until 2-3 years later, with the GameCube, PS2 and Xbox, again, in line with the time gap between the Switch and the PS5/Xbox Series X. These are just the facts, and you're ignoring the facts, and dodging the reply. These aren't strange hypotheticals at all. You're just willing to give the Genesis and Dreamcast a pass, but not the Switch, which is hypocritical MetaPlanet (talk) 23:15, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

This is all original research and synthesis. That's not what we do on Wikipedia. We summarize and report the details of reliable secondary sourcing. Yes, the Genesis originally competed with the NES, being released before the SNES. But that soon changed and is not the way sources talk about the Genesis. Until your frame shifts to understand that we don't do original reporting or research but report as the sources are reporting, your argument won't make progress here. We have sources that place the Genesis, Dreamcast and Switch where they are, and arguments about giving something a pass or "fairness" fall flat. -- ferret (talk) 00:24, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry, what? None of the sources that are in the 9th gen section for the Switch give a definitive statement for the Switch being 8th gen at all, because of it's competition, like you guys have been arguing this entire time. The BBC article doesn't give a consensus but says it's 9th gen for the sake of time. The Wired article gives a vague sentence at the end of the article saying "Nintendo hasn't made their 9th gen intentions known yet", completely missing the fact that Nintendo made a presentation back in 2017 explaining their entire process for the Switch, and is again, arguing on the basis of technical specificity, not competition, like you guys have been arguing this entire time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk2kIeCUVYY

The Techradar article is also talking about the Switch in terms of hardware and tech specificity, when it refers to it as thriving in a year of next-gen consoles. Not in terms of competition, like you guys have been arguing. And, if we actually use the argument of competition, the Techradar article, as well as the Polygon article linked, both acknowledge the fact that Nintendo is basically doing it's own thing at this point, and isn't worried about Sony or Microsoft, or even the cloud platforms popping up. And using that, that would make the Switch a console without a generation, if using the argument that console generations are defined by market competition

The fact of the matter is, even the sources that you guys used to argue the Switch is 8th gen, on the basis of competition, don't agree with you, and the entire basis of your argument that the Switch is 8th gen, is built on faulty logic, that is contradicted by the sources used to try and back up your claim

This isn't even getting into the Switch's description on the 8th gen article page, and how it's an abbreviated description of the history of the Switch, with one vague line at the end of the first paragraph saying it competed with the PS4/Xbox One (It competed with the enhanced models, for it's first 3 years, not the base ones BTW), and the rest being history

Again, the fact of the matter is, your entire argument that the Switch is 8th gen because of its competition, is faulty logic, and it's contradicted by the sources you guys linked, which talk about console generations more in terms of hardware and technical specificity. The reason I brought up fairness is because, if you were actually reading your own arguments, you'd realise how stupid they sound. All the arguments you've used to justify the Switch as 8th gen, all fall apart when applying them to other console generations. The time gap, and competition arguments, can be applied to the Genesis and Dreamcast, the tech specs argument, can be applied to the Wii and Wii U (and the Wii was actually technologically very similar to the GameCube), and again, the facts all point to the Switch being 9th gen. Even the most common argument of a next gen console being the successor to a previous one, (PS4 to PS5 and Xbox One to Xbox Series X), apply to the Switch. It's Nintendo's next gen console. It's the Successor to the Wii U, and arguably to the 3DS as well, and is getting all their support

Again, the only reason you guys are trying to justify the Switch as 8th gen, is because you're either incredibly misinformed, or you're stubborn MetaPlanet (talk) 01:04, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Can you provide a concise, source-based argument that doesn't devolve into all this complaining and name-calling? Sergecross73 msg me 01:36, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Statista lists the Switch, as 9th gen, https://www.statista.com/chart/26122/estimated-lifetime-sales-of-current-gen-consoles-by-market/ as does GeekWire, https://www.geekwire.com/2020/analysis-9th-console-generation-microsoft-sony-nintendo-arent-playing-game/

Popular Mechanics lists it as "riding the line between current and last gen", https://www.popularmechanics.com/culture/gaming/g38582026/best-game-consoles/

And pretty much every source I could find that puts the Switch, in 8th gen, only does so because of its hardware limitations, and not the competition it was up against, again, contradicting the entire justification you guys have been using to say the Switch is 8th gen, the argument of competition.

Again, all the sources contradict your logic on why the Switch is 8th gen, and the basic history of console generations coincides and is directly in line, with the Switch being 8th gen, including the fact that the Switch isn't a powerful console (again, why should it be, it's basically a tablet with controllers), like the Wii and Wii U before it, as well as the time gap, that was used to argue to competition argument many times before MetaPlanet (talk) 01:59, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Statista is not considered a reliable source. Geekwire is but one source among many that already place the Switch in the 8th gen, so it would be WP:UNDUE to use that. Popular Mechanics actually hints at a direction that may be out there, in that the Switch is possibly both a 8th and 9th gen console, but again, we need more than one source to work from that. --Masem (t) 02:33, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Statista is basically as reliable as bloody Polygon, a gaming blogging and news site. Arguably more reliable than Polygon since it's a consumer and market data analysis website, and that article specifically, was written by a data journalist, who would be more trustworthy than a BBC article that completely waves over the issue, or a Polygon article that doesn't even address the issue at all. Statista is reliable, and the only reason, you're disagreeing, is again, because you're being stubborn as all hell, to justify the Switch as 9th gen. Geekwire also agrees with the Statista article, in that the Switch is 9th gen, and again, brings up the fact that the Switch isn't even in direct competition with the PS5/Xbox Series X, again something that completely goes against your argument that the Switch is 8th gen, because it has in direct competition with the other 2, when Nintendo has been doing its own thing since 2017, not even being in competition with the PS4/Xbox One, which again, begs the question, is the Switch a console without a generation, because it's not in direct competition with any console? Using your logic of generations being defined by competition, then yes, the Switch has no generation at all. And going to the sources saying the Switch is 8th gen, these also contradict your argument that the Switch is 8th gen because of competition, because all of them bring up the Switch's hardware limitations, and technology, something you said, isn't relevant to the case at hand, at all, and that competition should only be the focus. Even your own sources don't agree with you on why the Switch should be considered 8th gen. And finally, Popular Mechanics just reiterates what Subscribe to Me said, in that the Switch could be considered Cross-Generational. Which makes sense. And it also feeds back into that "The Switch is a console without a generation" talk, that would stem from using the logic put forward by you guys, when using competition, as a measure of what generation a console is a part of. Which again, using that, the Genesis and Dreamcast should be considered 3rd and 5th gen respectively. Again, pretty much everything you're arguing to justify the Switch as 8th gen, is contradicted, by your sources, the historical timeline of other consoles, and the power of Nintendo's previous 2 consoles, compared to their competition. Your own logic has been proven to be faulty many times by now, even by your own sources, and sources I used, and yet you still keep coming back to arguing the Switch is 8th gen, using faulty logic, even when your own sources disagree with you. You've even had to go and say that Statista, a market data analysis site, is an unreliable source, when it comes to this, when it's arguably a better source that any other, since it's a market data analysis site, as opposed to a gaming blog and news site, which doesn't attempt to even consider the argument, or a news site that handwaves the argument away. Again, all justifications you guys have used to prove the Switch is 8th gen, has been proven to be faulty or just wrong, from either the history of console generations themselves, the technical specs of other consoles in relation to their competition, or from your own sources. Again, the only reason you guys are still arguing the Switch is 8th is because you're severely misinformed, or incredibly stubborn MetaPlanet (talk) 19:14, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Per WP:VG/S, there is a WP:CONSENSUS that Statista isn't a reliable/usable source. Until/unless a follow up discussion occurs and changes that, we need to comply with that consensus. No offense, but I think you need to spruce up on some of the basics before you attempt to change such a massively important article such as this. You're simply not persuading any experienced editors with your current approach. Sergecross73 msg me 20:07, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

I wanna come back to the Statista thing, but finding the list you just linked, I went through as many Wikipedia consensus reliable sources, and all of them didn't even mention console generations once. Some referred to the PS5/Xbox Series X, as Next-Gen, but never said the Switch was either current-gen or next gen. Instead, waving the issue away, or redirecting it to the hypothetical Switch Pro, which Nintendo themselves have stated, won't be a thing, https://www.tomsguide.com/uk/round-up/nintendo-switch-pro-release-date-specs-leaks-and-more and something these websites, and even yourselves forget is that the Switch is fundamentally a tablet. It's asinine to claim it's nowhere near as powerful as the PS5/Xbox Series X. It's the same as comparing a high end PC to an iPad. They're two fundamentally different systems. Now, going back to Statista, I find it really funny that the Wikipedia consensus is that Statista is unreliable, and in the same category as Watchmojo and Whatculture, two websites that are known for making top tens, and daily culture stuff, yet you have ESPN as a reliable source, because it covers e-sports, over Statista, again a market data analysis website, which is arguably more reliable on market data that some of the reliable sources. Finally, yes, this is a massively important article. And it's massively important to understand that the Switch is 9th generation. The faulty logic that's been used to justify the Switch as 8th gen, has again, been contradicted by A. Your own sources using technology over competition, B. The timeline of other console generations, and C. The hardware proficiency of the previous 2 Nintendo consoles, fall more in line with the argument that the Switch is 9th gen over 8th gen, and D. The fact that the Switch is the successor to Nintendo's actual 8th generation console, the Wii U.. All your arguments have repeatedly fallen flat because they're built on faulty logic, and have been disproven multiple times, even by your own sources, and yet again, you guys still aren't willing to change this because you're massively misinformed on why the Switch is actually a 9th gen console, but arguing it's 8th gen, again, on easily disproven faulty logic. The Switch is a 9th gen console, and all arguments are pointing that way MetaPlanet (talk) 22:52, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

It really doesn't matter how many times you claim faulty logic when there's a clear consensus against your position. Statistia is an unreliable source because they are tertiary source that consumes other sources, and in particular in regard to video game topic, they rely heavily on simply re-reporting figures by VGChartz, which has been considered unreliable on Wikipedia for over a decade. You might want to drop the stick. "Logic, checkmate" isn't an argument that is going to win the day here, no matter how many paragraphs you write and veiled (and unveiled) attacks on other editors you make. You should be aware that continuing to attack other editors as you do could result in a block. -- ferret (talk) 23:02, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

I'll concede on the Statista reliability sure, but there is no "clear consensus" on the Switch being 8th gen. Going back to that list of reliable sources, almost all of them never bring up which generation the Switch is a part of, and actually don't ever bring up what generation the PS5 or the Xbox Series X are a part of, as well, only referring to the latter 2 as "next-gen" and never ever bring up a "X-Gen" consensus for the Switch at all, dodging the question at all times. Pretty much, there is no "clear consensus" on the Switch being 8th generation, it's just you guys believe there is, when almost all websites completely handwave the question away. Also, I am going to argue faulty logic as many times as necessary, because you guys don't seem to understand why your position doesn't work. As I'm said, multiple times before, even your own sources, which try to justify why the Switch is 8th gen, contradict you guys, because they write it on the basis of technology, when you guys are arguing on the basis of competition. And BTW, saying that the editors are misinformed or stubborn isn't "attacking the editors". That's a very heavy handed claim you're making. Finally, if you seriously want someone to drop the stick, please do it yourself. As I've argued multiple times, the Switch is 9th gen, and again, your own sources don't agree with you on the reason of a point you seem to be making. Seriously, the Switch is 9th gen. Again, all arguments point that way MetaPlanet (talk) 23:18, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

We're not talking about a consensus of sources. We're talking about a consensus of editors on the project. As has been suggested, you need to brush up on the policies and guidelines so you're at least arguing from a position based in how Wikipedia is edited. -- ferret (talk) 23:23, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how many "Your logic is faulty"WP:VAGUEWAVE monologues you write up, you need a consensus to change established things, and you're not persuading anyone with this line of reasoning. Again, I'd recommend learning Wikipedia policies and guidelines better first. You don't even seem to be aware of how badly you keep violating the basics. Sergecross73 msg me 23:15, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

What consensus is there that's arguing the Switch is an 8th generation console, when almost all the websites linked as reliable for video game discussion never even bring up what generation the Switch, or even the PS5 or Xbox Series X are? Please tell me, because I don't see any websites arguing the Switch is an 8th generation console on the basis of market competition MetaPlanet (talk) 23:21, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

When people talk about WP:CONSENSUS on Wikipedia, they're talking about how editors are handling content. This...is what I mean when I tell you to work on the basics before working on major, impactful changes. It feels like you're not even having the same conversation as the rest of us. Sergecross73 msg me 23:37, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Ditto. Lots of WP:OR and not enough WP:V. —  HELLKNOWZ ∣ TALK 21:14, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

If we want argue verifiability, then going by what's been argued time and time again here, the argument that the Switch is an 8th gen console because of it's initial competition, is built on faulty logic, and arguably, an shakily verifiable justification of console generations to be defined by market competition. Using this same logic, as i've argued before, the Sega Genesis and Sega Dreamcast should be reclassified as 3rd and 5th generation consoles respectively, yet this is unverifiable since their competition was the SNES, and the GameCube/PS2/Xbox respectively. The same is the case for the Switch. It's competing in the same market as the PS5/Xbox Series X, and has been for 2 years at this point, and has been thriving. The argument being made for the Dreamcast and Genesis being 6th and 4th gen respectively, despite having the same time period as the Switch to compete with past generations, yet this not being the case for the Switch, is hypocrisy. Defining console generations solely on what the competition was, at the time, is A. faulty logic, as I've said before multiple times, and B. A Shakily verifiable claim, since many things can classify console generations. Many websites use the argument of technology, which, if we use that, puts the Switch as arguably a 7th generation console, since it doesn't haven't anywhere near the power of even the slim models of the 8th generation consoles, which contradicts the point of the Switch being 8th gen due to competition. Again, if we want to argue verifiability here, then the logic that the Switch is 8th gen, is built on a foundation which has shaky verification at best MetaPlanet (talk) 23:06, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

It is probably necessary to reiterate that we are trying to avoid the mess that earlier editors of WP made by creating the generation system before there were reliable sources that really documented it, which lasted through the 6th generation. There were some concepts of generations like the 8-bit and 16-bit machines, but beyond that, WP editors opted to make their own system. For their own part, that system generally agreed in terms of where consoles lined up when academics took up the mantle of developing classifications, but after the 6th generation, we have generally been very careful to let reliable sources lead rather than create our own route. Yes, that means it seems odd that the 8th gen has both the Wii U and Switch in it, but that 100% follows from sources - the Wii U was considered in direct competition with the Xbox 360 / PS4 (and failed badly), and then later when Nintendo rushed out the Switch, that became the console in competitin with those two. Now that we have 9th gen consoles, given that the Switch is nowhere close to the processing power as either of those, there's clearly hesitation by RSes to include the Switch within the 9th, but I can see a some sources wanting to go that way if there's no Switch Pro or the like before the true next Nintendo console comes out. But we have to sit and wait on that. Masem (t) 00:21, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Addressing your first point, the argument can also be made that the Switch had a small amount of time where it overlapped with the previous generation before the market settled. Addressing your second point, yes the Switch is in competition with the PS5/Xbox Series X. 2 years is enough time to judge whether the Switch is in competition with the PS5/Xbox Series X, and the fact that many games are releasing on each platform, I’d say it’s safe to say the Switch is in competition with the newest consoles. To address your third point, this isn’t jumping ahead of sources. The past of gaming consoles, directly reinstates the fact that the Switch is a 9th generation console. The 2-3 year time gap, is exactly the same as the Genesis/Dreamcast time gaps to their respective generations, the power of the Switch is in direct line with the previous 2 Nintendo consoles, and their respective power compared to their competition, and the fact that cross platform games on the PS%/Xbox Series X are also on the Switch. All of this points to the Switch as a 9th generation console, and not 8th gen MetaPlanet (talk) 23:15, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

You're right about Masem. Speaking with him on this same subject, Masem seems to ignore the logic that supports points he doesn't agree with. 143.59.28.175 (talk) 04:37, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I see it as a cross generational console. This has happened before. The Atari Jaguar and 3DO are for some reason considered part of the 5th generation even though they were mean to compete with 4th generation consoles. Their specs are higher than that of the SNES and Genesis, but lower than those of the Saturn, PS1 and N64. Both were also discontinued towards the start of the main 5th generation. Meanwhile, the Sega Dreamcast is considered 6th generation but it was released towards the end of the 5th and discontinued during the start of the 6th. It's more powerful than the PS1 and N64 but less than the PS2, Xbox, and GameCube. I initially felt like the New 3DS would be 9th generation, but in reality it was a mid-life refresh, something that really only the 8th generation has had so far. The PS4 and Xbox One did get hardware updates around the same time the Switch launched. So, maybe we should justify generations buy what they were competing with. Subscribe to me (talk) 16:33, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

The NES, Game Boy, Genesis, PS1, PS2, GBA, PSP, NDS, X360, PS3, and Wii all had mid generation refreshes too. A generation is more about the platform itself, not hardware revisions. CuteCucumber! (talk) 07:25, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree, the Switch should be considered part of the ninth generation. Not only does it make sense logically and is consistent with past generations, but it has also had strong support over the last 2 years. Reading through the discussion, it looks like the only argument for deciding to place the Switch in the eighth generation is essentially "Wikipedia doesn't want to decide where to place it". Which doesn't make a lot of sense. One sides believes the Switch is certainly part of the ninth generation, while the other side believes it could go either way. Since everyone agrees is could at least potentially be part of the ninth gen, no one believes it is certainly part of the eighth gen, and some are certain it's not part of the eighth gen, then there is no reason for it to be placed in the eighth gen article instead if the ninth.

I am willing to make this change if no one protests. CuteCucumber! (talk) 07:13, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

No, no change should be made until we have a pretty strong consensus based off reliable source evidence that Switch is considered 9th gen. The problem is that most people in favor of the change are basing it off of their own personal analysis in these long monologues without any sourcing to back it up. Sergecross73 msg me 11:32, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Yeah I understand that, but it doesn't seem like there is any compelling source to suggest it should be considered eighth gen either. And it is true that over the past few years there has been a strong consensus to include it in the ninth. Like I said, the only ones arguing against including it in the ninth can't show definitive proof it should be in the eighth either. The only real consensus is that it could possibly be considered ninth gen, so why is it currently in the eighth gen when that position has even less consensus? CuteCucumber! (talk) 12:32, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

If you have no further obecjtions I'd like to go through with the change. If you still have any reservations please explain them so we can try to come to a consensus. Thank you. CuteCucumber! (talk) 06:22, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2021

There is a reference that was dated to November 19, 2021 but the article was published on November 19, 2020. It is the last reference (#45) with the article "Google Stadia Survived A Year, But Its Future Depends On Games Like Cyberpunk 2077". 216.169.233.11 (talk) 22:30, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 22:47, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 July 2021

Nintendo Switch is also part of the ninth generation of consoles so I believe that it needs to be added Hayden73000 (talk) 13:36, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: Please read the rest of the talk page. Users request this (without any sourcing to back it) on a regular basis without regard for the existing consensus which is based on a review of reliable secondary sourcing. -- ferret (talk) 13:37, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Name of Nintendo Switch's successor

The Wii U and the Nintendo Switch are both eighth generation. Right now there's official information on the Nintendo Switch's successor, saying that it has the codename "Dane". Any official information on when it will get its name revealed?? (This is like the NX for the Nintendo Switch.) Georgia guy (talk) 19:59, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Literally nothing is know about Switch's successor yet. Even the codename "Dane" is not official. Sergecross73 msg me 20:02, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Steam Deck?

Today Steam Deck was announced. will Steam Deck count as a 9th gen console or not? --Window OS (talk) 07:02, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Probably not, it's just a PC. Maybe worth mentioning in the article if sources discuss it as a competitor down the road. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 11:51, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

All current consoles are custom PCs so that's not really a valid argument. Enzyme42 (talk) 10:59, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

I think you're splitting hairs with wording here. There's obvious and clear differences with what a Steam Deck is and can do. You can install entire operating systems on it because it's essentially a handheld PC. That's certainly not something you can do on current consoles. Pretty sure that was the point being made. Sergecross73 msg me 14:36, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, the line around what consoles are defined as is with respect to their close ecosystems. Steam Deck is anything but that, given that Valve has even said you can wipe the OS and install Windows on it, without violating any warranty or EULA. Its basically a handheld form-factor PC. --Masem (t) 14:47, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

The thing that separates consoles from conventional PCs is the unified hardware set. Not the software or firmware running on the device. But even so, your argument that consoles don't allow users to modify firmware falls flat with things like the 1292 Advanced Programmable Video System line of products existing to do just that. A much more modern example would be SONY's Playstation 2 Linux disc installer. This would be a major selling point for the Playstation 3 that you could load other Operating Systems onto the system using OtherOS. 96.250.206.165 (talk) 06:37, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

This is in very broad terms, and yes, some consoles have examples where they did allow modification. There are some exceptions to the rule, but key still remains that PS2 itself ran a closed operating system on closed hardware, and same with the PS3, whereas the Steam Deck may have a somewhat closed hardware but with a very open software system. --Masem (t) 12:15, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

I should also state that wiping the OS and installing a different OS is not in violation of ANY console's EULA. I suggest you go read Nintendo's EULA for the switch console, it's a relatively short read. There you'll see that you have purchased the console outright, and you are able to License the OS that they've made for the console if you adhere to the EULA. You aren't allowed to do a lot of things to the Software, but removing it is omitted from the restrictions. Nintendo even has provisions in the EULA for dealing with Unauthorized Modification to the console, but no where in the agreement does it outright bar you to do this Modification (It does state the risks & liabilities to operation). Legally they need to word it this way else they would be in violation of 26 Stat. 209 for US or Article 102 TFEU for EU. They can make it so that the games they've made can only be ran on their authorized software but that's within a separate EULA for that one game. however emulation is legal. 96.250.206.165 (talk) 07:40, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Its nothing so granular that one needs to dissect EULAs or philosophical stances on emulation. Consoles are generally closed systems. Steam Deck is an extremely open system. There's always minor exceptions, but Steam Deck isn't generally considered a traditional console. Sergecross73 msg me 11:58, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

I think Steam Deck still warrants mention. The Ouya was an open system that basically ran android but it's still considered a game console. The Steam Deck is a device marketed primarily for it's ability to play video games, many of which are available on other platforms, and is directly competing with other game devices for the same audience. Considering Steams place in the market, it would be disingenuous not to at least mention the Steam Deck. CuteCucumber! (talk) 12:52, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Steam Deck is mentioned in the 9th Gen article just about as much as Ouya is mentioned in the 8th Gen article. And that was a similar situation too. Some editors wanted to position it as some sort of major competitor to Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo, and that just simply never happened. Sergecross73 msg me 12:57, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

The Ouya article itself classifies the Ouya as eighth gen. I'm not sure why that is if it's not in the actual eighth gen article though.

The Steam platform itself has been very successful against Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony. The fact that they are now selling dedicated hardware is at the very least noteworthy. CuteCucumber! (talk) 13:12, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

That's more of an oversight at the Ouya article than anything. But otherwise, the issue with the Steam Deck isn't popularity, it's that it's often referred to as more of a handheld computer than a console. Not every popular thing that plays games video games is a video game console. That's why iPhones and iPads aren't on there either. Sergecross73 msg me 13:37, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

I disagree, most of the conversation around the Steam Deck compare it too major consoles.

The Verge, for example consistently compares it this way:

https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/6/22612886/valve-steam-deck-handheld-gaming-pc-hands-on-preview

https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/15/22578783/valve-steam-deck-gaming-handheld-pc

I disagree, most of the conversation around the Steam Deck compare it too major consoles.

https://www.theverge.com/good-deals/2022/8/2/23287263/philips-hue-smart-bulbs-apple-ipad-jabra-elite-7-active-nintendo-switch-google-chromecast-deal-salehttps://www.theverge.com/good-deals/2022/8/2/23287263/philips-hue-smart-bulbs-apple-ipad-jabra-elite-7-active-nintendo-switch-google-chromecast-deal-salehttps://www.theverge.com/22950371/valve-steam-deck-reviewhttps://www.theverge.com/22960536/steam-deck-faq-valve-one-month-later CuteCucumber! (talk) 13:59, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

The first link only makes a comparison of the performing power of the Deck to the Xbox Series X via comparison, not that it is a competitor to the Xbox Series X. The second link has no such mention at all. No reliable source is putting the Deck as a competitor to the Xbox or PS, and even where the comparisons to the Switch are made, they still don't list it as a competitor. Masem (t) 15:19, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, had a bit of trouble with the formatting. You can do a search on the Verge for some more examples though.

I'm not sure what your issue is, sorry. The point is that the gaming industry is treating it like any other gaming system. One could argue that Nintendo doesn't compete against Sony or MS, but that doesn't mean they don't make game consoles. You could even argue that none of the sources for the article already directly indicate that Xbox and Playstation are competitors.

What exactly is the criteria being used to determine what is or isn't a game console, and who is it that gets to make that evaluation? I feel like this page would be much less controversial if we had clear metrics in place, rather than just vaugly saying "industry support" CuteCucumber! (talk) 17:00, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

The problem we have is that RSes have decidedly placed the Switch in the 8th gen, and that was before the Xbox Series X/S and PS5 were announced. Now that we are in the 9th gen, while the Switch "competes" against those consoles, no sourcing routinely places it as ninth generation. We are open to the idea that this may be the first cross-generational console and there's a few sources that help with that but they are not sufficient for saying that in Wikivoice. There's certainly far fewer for calling the Switch a ninth generation. Masem (t) 17:03, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I think you might've posted in the wrong section by mistake. This is for the Steam Deck, not Switch. CuteCucumber! (talk) 17:10, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm giving the example of the Switch in which we have to go by sources, not what we think it is. Even for Steam Deck, we don't have sources that call it a "home console". Masem (t) 17:14, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Ah, I see, my mistake.

The point I'm making is that the the very same reliable source already accepted for this page have positioned the Steam Deck as a competitor the other consoles. CuteCucumber! (talk) 17:19, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I'd really like to sort this out, so I'd ask you provide so clarity on the definition of a game console. We need to reach a consensus, but if people don't provide their input on the issue they shouldn't be allowed to hold up development of the page. Otherwise I'll go ahead and add Steam Deck to the page. I feel like it clear that the sources already accept in this page position the Steam Deck along side other gaming devices. CuteCucumber! (talk) 06:34, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

That's not how consensus works, you don't just keep suggesting something until no one responds to disagree with you anymore, and then make the move. Please slow down. You do not have a consensus to make the change at this point. Personally, I recommend taking sometime to learn the website basics before you jump into something major like rewriting the history of video games. But that's just advice, not something I can make you do. If you wish to get more input on this, I recommend starting a more visible discussion rather than chatting it up on a 16 month old discussion. Start a new discussion, notify WP:VG neutrally for more discussion participants, etc. Sergecross73 msg me 14:09, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree we should take things slow, but presently we're not moving forward at all.

Why couldn't you have at least responded to some of my concerns? We should try to encourage progress on this instead of responding with thinly veiled personal attacks. You're holding up progress by refusing to engage, so if you have nothing constructive to add please stop wasting other people's time. CuteCucumber! (talk) 15:50, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

See, this is what I mean when I say slow down and learn how the website works. Discussions are not "at a stand still". They often take time and this isn't anything urgent that needs to be rushed. You just started discussing yesterday and you've already gotten multiple responses. That is...normal. And I just told you part of the problem is that you're not starting your discussions in very visible areas, so you're not getting a ton of responses. There's a lot to learn about Wikipedia and your questions and edit history indicate you're unaware of any of it. Rather than jump into a massively complicated situation with no knowledge of past discussions or policies, please go learn the basics first at WP:ADVENTURE and WP:5P. Learn basic editing. Then circle back to the complicated stuff. Sergecross73 msg me 16:21, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I understand very well how Wikipedia operates. I understand you're concern but I assure you it is unfounded and there is no need for your condescending attitude.

This discussion has been going on for over a year with no progress. As I already said, if you are not interested in contributing please don't waste others' time. CuteCucumber! (talk) 16:38, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

There's only so many ways editors can tell you that there are no reliable sources that routinely describe Steam Deck as 9th gen console. Whether it takes a year or a decade or never happens, we will always require sources first and not subjective conclusions. Telling that you will add this regardless or telling someone taking the time to explain you things to stop wasting time is the opposite of how Wikipedia operates. —  HELLKNOWZ ∣ TALK 19:37, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

But on the other hand there's only so many ways I can explain that the sources do describe the Steam Deck as a console. What I would like is exactly what you've proposed. That we actually discuss the sources at hand instead of making ad hominem attacks. CuteCucumber! (talk) 06:07, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

It's too early to tell. We need to wait and see how the industry treats it, how reliables sources classify it, etc. Sergecross73 msg me 14:10, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Over a year after release it is clear that both the industry and consumers view it as a handheld PC. The inclusion of the steam deck as a console would also make it so we would have to add ROG Ally and any other handheld PC> GonzoBlue (talk) 17:49, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Atari VCS and Intelivision Amico

Should the Atari VCS (2021 console) and Intellivision Amico be placed under Other Consle section? Doremon764 (talk) 04:56, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

We usually wait until reliable sources directly call them part of the 9th gen. We let them classify it first. Sergecross73 msg me 19:34, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 October 2021

the switch is put as a minor console dissipate it being the winning console 2407:7000:8734:1178:48D7:711D:1A56:3E4B (talk) 06:04, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: No actual change suggested. The Switch's status in the generation remains disputed and unclearly sourced. -- ferret (talk) 12:31, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Switch is a ninth generation console.

The switch is the successor to both 3ds and WiiU, and therefore it is Nintendo's ninth generation console, it was launched many years after the 3DS and WiiU came out, it does not make sense to place it in the same generation as those consoles.

Furthermore, each new console that succeeds another has always been considered as the initiator of the next generation, even dating many years apart.

For example the Dreamcast was launched early due to the failure of Saturn in 1998, three years before Gamecube that launched in 2001, and both are of the same generation, this rule has been applied to all consoles, except with Switch . 176.83.54.176 (talk) 19:27, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

That's not how console generations work. They are based on what consoles are considered in competition. It was clearly an eighth generation console by this metric. However, it may also be a ninth generation console as well, but we need reliable sources to show this. --Masem (t) 19:38, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Statista lists the Switch with the PS5 and Xbox Series X/S . Additionally VGCHartz ommits the Switch from their 8th generation and lists it under "Current"[1], TVTropes has the switch as a 8.5 gen listing it as both 8th gen and 9th gen , and GeekWire has listed it as a 9th gen system. GameRant omitted the Switch from the 8th generation in their article ranking the first 8 generations, but did have a note stating that if they had counted the Switch as part of the 8th generation they would have rated that generation higher on their tier list. Meanwhile CBR lists the Switch firmly in the 8th gen, though at this point they are starting to look more and more like the outlier at least when I check the first page of articles when searching "9th generation video game console" on duck duck go.142.161.249.114 (talk) 18:27, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Neither Statistia, VGChartz or TV Tropes are reliable sources. --Masem (t) 18:35, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

So are GeekWire, GameRant, and CBR reliable sources? Two out of three don't include the Switch as an 8th gen console. InspiredShares, MakeUseOf, GamerBolt, Best Review, The Gamer lists it as an 8th gen so now were 2:6 if they count. Popular Mechanics lists it as being in both generations making it 3:7 if all of these sources count. I'll admit, I'm not really sure what does and doesn't qualify as a reliable source. I still think it warrants discussion as to weather the switch should be treated as both 8th and 9th.142.161.249.114 (talk) 22:05, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Those generally run the gamut from "unreliable" to "extremely iffy". Not the sort of stuff you use for writing the history of an entire industry, for sure. Sergecross73 msg me 22:11, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

This logic is dumb. If we go by the logic that a console is defined by the what it was in competition with, then the Sega Genesis should be reclassified as a third generation console, since it existed to be in direct competition with the original Nintendo Entertainment system, with its release coinciding with that since it released in 1988/1989. The SNES didn't exist until 1990, and only existed because Sega wanted to take on the NES, and Nintendo was worried at losing its market. But it's just not true to classify the Genesis as 3rd Gen because it existed to beat the NES, since its biggest competition was the SNES. Sega's actual 3rd gen console is the master system, we can all agree on that, while the Genesis is 4th gen, even though, it took on the NES originally

The same logic should apply to the Switch. It's a 9th generation console. It's the successor to the Wii U, and therefore, should be classified as 9th gen. It isn't even in direct competition to the PS4 or Xbox One, the way the Genesis was with the NES. It's competition is the PS5 and Xbox Series X. If we go by the rules set out, then we should reclassify the Sega Genesis as 3rd generation MetaPlanet (talk) 23:11, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Feel free to come back with reliable secondary sources that support your position. -- ferret (talk) 23:14, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

You want reliable sources for history you guys, yourself have published to Wikipedia? The timeline is what reinstates this fact. NES release 1983/1985. Sega Genesis release 1988. SNES release 1990/1991. This timeline is in line with what you lot are arguing, as evidence for the Switch not being 9th gen. A 2-3 year time gap. It’s also similar to the Sega Dreamcast timeline. The PS1 released in 1995, the N64 in 1996, and they were the direct competition to the Dreamcast for 2-3 years, until the PS2 launched in 2000, and the Xbox and Gamecube in 2001. Again a 2-3 year gap. This has been the case with 2 previous console generations and is the case for the 9th generation. You’re just completely dismissing what I wrote, when you yourself can check the articles for each console, and see that the timeline matches. It’s idiotic to use the logic that the Switch was in competition with a previous generation, when 2 Sega consoles were in competition with previous generation and yet are considered next generation MetaPlanet (talk) 23:16, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

There's always a small amount of timing and overlap to consider. Yes, the Genesis did have a brief period where the NES was its primary competitor, but well after the market settled, nearly all sources weigh the Genesis against the SNES. We have a similar problem with the Switch in that for the first 3 years, it was clearly in competition with the 8th gen consoles (plenty of sources that confirm this), but we are still weighing whether the Switch is considered a serious competitor to the PS5 and Xbox Series X/S. We dont have any sources that support this conclusion, but its also been under two years and they may come down the line. What we can't do is jump ahead of what RSes say and make the claim ourselves. --Masem (t) 23:17, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Addressing your first point, the system on Wikipedia right now, is great… until it comes to the consensus of the Nintendo Switch, which has it as an 8th generation console, when the history of console generations is more in line with it being a 9th generation console than an 8th generation console. The dates of previous console generations, the hardware limitations of Nintendo’s 2 previous consoles compared to their competition, and the cross platform games on all 3 systems, all track with the consensus with the Switch being 9th gen. Hell, the easiest argument to make, and that should be made, is that the Switch is the next console from the Wii U, and that’s what makes it 9th gen. To address your second point, the Switch being 8th gen doesn’t track with sources at all. Again, using this logic that you’ve put forward, the Sega Genesis should be considered 3rd gen, and the Sega Dreamcast should be considered 5th gen respectively. But again, that’s untrue because the Genesis was the successor to Sega’s 3rd gen console, the Master System, and the Dreamcast was the successor to Sega’s 5th gen console, the Saturn, despite the 2-3 year time gap for their respective competition. The same is happening for the Switch. To address your third point, you can’t all of a sudden argue about technical specs, and hardware power, when you were adamant, that the only thing that tracked with console generations was the competition to each console. And if we use this argument, you can argue that the Switch, as well as the Wii U, aren’t even considerable to be 8th generation, since their technical specs fall much more in line with the PS3/Xbox 360, as opposed to the PS4/Xbox one, which were both much more powerful than either the Switch or the Wii U, yet again, despite this, the Wii U is the next generation from the Wii, and using the same logic, the Switch is the next generation from the Wii U, which makes it 9th gen. Also, you seem to completely ignore the fact, that, at its core, the Switch is a tablet with controllers, as opposed to a massive box which acts as a less powerful PC. The argument that the Switch being way less powerful than the PS5/Xbox Series X so it’s a generation behind, doesn’t make sense, because A. It’s more in line with an iPad than an overly powerful console, and B. This same logic can be applied to the Wii U, which is much more in line with the PS3/Xbox 360, as opposed to the PS4/Xbox One, and therefore, should be considered 7th gen instead, since the base models, not even the ungraded versions, but the base models, and hell, even the smaller slim variations, which were less powerful than the base models, of each console were way more powerful than the Wii U could ever hope to be. But again it’s untrue to use this logic to classify the Wii U as a 7th gen console. And yet, it’s hypocritical to use the same logic to classify the Switch as 8th gen, when it’s 9th gen. To address your final point, again, everything written and all the sources found for the previous articles for all other console generations on Wikipedia tracks with the Switch being 9th gen, and it isn’t jumping to conclusions. It's using the history of the console generations to back up the fact that the Switch is 9th gen. 2-3 year time gap, hardware being weaker not being a problem, games for the PS5/Xbox Series X also getting Switch releases in some cases, and the basic fact that the Switch is the next gen console for Nintendo and successor to the Wii U. The only reason you guys haven’t added it to the 9th gen console is because you’re A. Either misinformed, which I’m guessing is the case since you guys have been using faulty logic to justify the Switch as 9th gen, to B. Are stubborn as all hell MetaPlanet (talk) 23:17, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

THIS. The Switch came out in March 2017, which means it competed with 8th gen (PS4/Xbox One) for 3 years, 4 months. I suppose once we get to April 2024 in less than a year it will have competed with 9th gen (PS5/Xbox X/S) for longer than that, at which point it will inevitably get moved to this 9th gen page? There's not going to be a new Nintendo console released before that. We already know Switch is the primary Nintendo offering against the PS5/Xbox X/S, and has sold most of its units after PS5/Xbox X/S came out, so not putting it here is just ignoring known information for odd/questionable/(are we just being straight up stubborn?) reasons + making the 8th gen page look silly with 2 Nintendo offerings on it.

Nobody is going to look at anyone with a serious face and say "Yes, the primary competition for Switch is the PS4 and Xbox One... yeah the ones from 2013... yes from 10 years ago... that's who it's competing against." - unfortunately that's what the 8th/9th gen pages are currently saying.

I've been a Wikipedian for 18 years FWIW and this article looks very off to not have Switch in it. Joz (talk) 06:54, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

A console can span more than one gen.

Anyway, all Nintendo needs to do is release the Switch 2 or whatever. ScrewV22 (talk) 03:39, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Nintendo was considered competition by both Microsoft and the legal system during the Microsoft & Activision Merger v. FTC as of July 2013. It was even argued by microsoft that someone who walks into a store to buy a gaming machine like a Switch might not have enough money to buy an XBox Series.

So to pretend that it's not a 9th gen console based on power or because it came out in 2017 and also competed with the PS4 or XBO is irrelevant. Samalik16 (talk) 11:27, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

For one thing, we have sources that say the 9th gen started with the PS5 and Xbox Series X/S. We can treat the Switch as overlapping in that, but we definitely cannot put the Switch fully into the ninth gen because it is not considered when the ninth gen started. Masem (t) 13:02, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Those sources are unreliable though 108.226.178.61 (talk) 10:11, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

References

More the case here of when the main RSes like IGN, Eurogamer, etc discuss ninth generation on a regular basis, do they include the Switch? I am pretty sure that answer is no. You might find a one off but in broad terms it is just not there. --Masem (t) 22:18, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2022-bright-memory-infinite-a-development-marvel-for-ps5-and-xbox-series-consoles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-UpNaAkEvI

Eurogamer/Digital Foundry refers to Switch as current-gen. This is implied in the Eurogamer article with:

"On the face of it, this is indeed a 'next-gen only' exclusive - you can't play the game on PS4 or Xbox One consoles - which makes the launch of a Nintendo Switch version all the more intriguing."

It is more explicitly stated on the video itself:

"One of the games that kicked off Microsoft's introduction to next generation gaming has finally arrived - and it's not just available for Xbox Series consoles, it's also out now on PlayStation 5 and... Nintendo Switch? How do the three 'current-gen' console versions compare?"

Sources like these will become more common as time goes on with Switch still not leaving the market any time soon. Samhiuy (talk) 00:33, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Inclusion of the Atari VCS

As stated in a previous section on this page, the inclusion of the Atari VCS was postponed to gauge it's position. This was in July of 2021, and enough time has passed since then to make a decision. Since then, the Atari VCS, when described by reliable sources, is considered to be a console in competition against the PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X/S, not the PlayStation 4 or Xbox One consoles. The Atari VCS does not fit Wikipedia's "definition" of a Microsonsole, being that it's not "powered by low-cost computing hardware" nor is priced lower than the consoles it's compared to (PlayStation 5 & Xbox Series X/S). Video games that are released across every 9th generation console including the VCS are comparable to each other. For example these multi-platform games which released on all 9th generation hardware (PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X/S, and Atari VCS) are all comparable versions, with the Atari VCS release being compared directly alongside the others on IGN. The Atari VCS is an all-digital console, which is comparable to the PlayStation 5 all-digital edition and the Xbox Series S. A staple of this generation of consoles is support of higher resolutions such as 4K. The Atari VCS is a 4K console. The Atari VCS was also released within the same general timeframe as the PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X/S. Which eliminates the debate about the Nintendo Switch's inclusion. As shown above, the Atari VCS is considered to be competing against the PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X/S, not previous consoles (which is how video game console generations are "defined" on Wikipedia). The Atari VCS does take more of a "blue ocean strategy" similar to the Nintendo Switch when compared to the other "current generation" consoles. While the Atari VCS has not sold in number that the PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X/S have, sales numbers have never been a factor in including a console in any of Wikipedia's console generation articles. One thing of note, every major release of an Atari console is included on their respective generations list. While Atari has changed much over time, It's an Atari console none the less. Since the July 2021 postponement, it's become clear that the Atari VCS is a home console, not microconsole, and that it falls into the 9th generation rather than the 8th generation of consoles. It's time to include the console into this article. If consensus doesn;t think it should be added alongside the other two, it should have a spot in the "other consoles" section of this article. --Jrcraft Yt (talk) 03:15, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

References

I've compiled the necessary information for the comparison list.--Jrcraft Yt (talk) 03:19, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't see reliable sources mentioning Atari in the conversations on the industry in the same way they discuss Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo. I don't think sources generally consider it part of the 9th generation on consoles. I'm against adding it. Sergecross73 msg me 03:25, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

That Atari is mentioned alongside other platforms during the re-release of old Atari games is really not a sign of anything. They're literally games famous for being on the VCS's namesake. Of course it'll be mentioned. I'm not yet convinced, but I wanted to throw that particular argument out. Is there any triple-A support? Retail? From where I sit, I never hear about the console at all or any games being released on it. -- ferret (talk) 13:11, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

To add, that it doesn't get anywhere close to continual coverage like the PS5, Xbox Series X/S, Switch, or even Stadia and other cloud gaming solutions indicates how little it was seen by reliable sources as anything serious in the market. Yes, they covered it, but no one considered it a serious player next to the PS5 or Xbox consles. --Masem (t) 13:18, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

We don't classify console generations based on "number of AAA games" or whether or not you've heard of it. Popularity isn't what decides something like that. It's available at a number of retail locations such as GameStop, Best Buy, Walmart, Amazon, and so on. The Atari VCS doesn't fit into the "micro console" category. One look at the Microconsole page should tell you that. So what remains is whether it gets added to the 8th generation list or 9th generation list. Remember, on Wikipedia, Console generations are "grouping[s of] consoles that are considered to have shared in a competitive marketspace." While not necessarily popular (though we've included consoles that have sold much less units than the Atari VCS), the Atari VCS clearly intends to compete with the 9th generation consoles (Similarly to how the Nintendo Switch (while also offering something more unique) competed with the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One despite being much different). So when it comes down to which generation it gets placed (8th or 9th), it's pretty clear that it belongs in the 9th. Remember, popularity isn't how we segment these consoles. I definently understand why some people are against it's inclusion, but pretending like it doesn't exist is misleading at best, and malicious at worse.--Jrcraft Yt (talk) 20:43, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Not every console is classified into a generation, that's the problem you're starting with. --Masem (t) 21:04, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

It's not clear to me that you fully understand how/why we classify generations to begin with... Sergecross73 msg me 21:06, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Why would it not go under the "other consoles" section? Especially considering what's there on the Seventh generation of video game consoles article. There isn't a good reason to not, at a minimum, locate it there. --Jrcraft Yt (talk) 23:16, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Can we add the Quest 2 into this?

It's clearly a game console of the 9th generation. It came out just 2 months before the ps5, and it's a console that stands well on its own. The fact it hasn't been included yet has me scratching my head. We haven't included any Oculus in any other generations, but while I've chalked that up to the headsets normally being peripherals to pc gaming, the Quest 2 can be and usually is used as its own, stand alone console. Sneakycrown (talk) 10:57, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Its not generally considered a home video game console by reliable sources, so it doesn't belong in this article. Sergecross73 msg me 12:21, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, the VR units are not considered to be in competition with the home consoles. --Masem (t) 12:23, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

The article doesn't reflect the status of the market

Here's the number of consoles sold from 31st March 2021 to 31st March 2022:

• PlayStation 5: 11.5 million
• Xbox Series X/S: 8.8 million
• Nintendo Switch: 23.06 million

According to those figures, Nintendo Switch is the current leader of the market. Not only the Switch is in direct competiton with the PS5 and Xbox Series, but it wins the competition. As such, it feels very counter-intuitive to not consider it part of the 9th generation, particularly considering the Wii U was already considered part of the 8th generation and no one seems to disagree that the Switch is its successor. This all feels pretty misguiding for the reader. Metropolitan (talk) 00:33, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Switch is still considered an 8th gen as most sources put it as 8th gen. --Masem (t) 00:36, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

What means "most sources"? Can you be a bit more factual? According to Wikipedia: "In the video game industry, the market for home video game consoles has frequently been segmented into generations, grouping consoles that are considered to have shared in a competitive marketspace. Since the first home consoles in 1972, there have been nine defined home console generations." Isn't the Nintendo Switch currently sharing the market with the PS5 and Xbox Series? Metropolitan (talk) 01:00, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

"Citation needed" Sergecross73 msg me 01:17, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Don't bother, Nintendo could come out and outright say this is our 10th generation console in the direct that announces the switch's successor and Wikipedia would still list the switch as 8th gen because Nintendo is a primary not a secondary source. They took the word of a couple "reliable" sources that are trying to redefine console generations along hardware power lines and ran with it 2600:1700:1D60:1A50:71ED:3229:8292:74F7 (talk) 05:49, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Completely false. If Nintendo came right out and said it, the rest of the industry would adapt to it and there'd be no shortage of usable sources. Sergecross73 msg me 11:55, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Atari VCS

The Atari VCS is a ninth generation console that needs added to this page. It brings with it, a console that can also be used as a computer and is the first console released by Atari in quite some time. 75.90.139.240 (talk) 15:15, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

It is a microconsole and not part if the ninth gen. Masem (t) 16:16, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

It is a microconsole, and not generally discussed in the same way in the industry as what is listed here at this article. It doesn't belong here. Sergecross73 msg me 16:43, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Xbox Series announced before PS5

I saw that the Xbox Series was announced at E3 2019 as Project Scarlett before the PlayStation 5 was revealed. I wonder if it is an error? I'm going to make a proposal for a change just in case Microsoft is right (which is most cases is). One-Winged Devil (talk) 21:57, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow what you're getting at... Sergecross73 msg me 23:23, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Nintendo Switch successor

Somebody reverted my edits focusing on Nintendo's next-gen console after the Nintendo Switch. What should I do to add edits on Nintendo's next-gen console? One-Winged Devil (talk) 23:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

We need a far better reliable source than an unknown site to start talking about the actual likely next console. Eg we're talking like Bloomberg or something in the trade industry. --Masem (t) 00:20, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Please don't add it at all as long as it's a vague rumor. If it's just a vague rumor, it's not impacting the "generation" at all. It's too soon to be adding anything about this. Sergecross73 msg me 00:44, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Seems like, since Nintendo refreshed the OLED model of the Switch, there will be no "Switch 2" this generation. Switch OLED model should be considered the current gen Switch I think. Andre🚐 04:30, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Souljagame

You should maybe add the soujagame, i get that its a bootleg console but its still properly branded 184.166.13.170 (talk) 16:33, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

No, no one in the industry considers that an actual part of the current generation of consoles. Sergecross73 msg me 18:44, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Switch focus to "current generation"

Perhaps codifying current consoles as "ninth gen" is a bit premature. We don't truly know how history will view any of these consoles and we don't want to invent classifications ourselves. True, many sources refer to present systems as "ninth gen", but there is certainly no uniformity, and hardly any source claims to present an exhaustive list of what is considered "ninth". Nor do we know if more consoles will be released.

Therefore I prepose that the article should instead focus on "current" systems that are still relevant in the market. This would include not only the Switch, but the PS4 and Xbox One as well. Then, when each system loses market relevance we can re-evaluate it's overall position to determine what generation each was apart of.

I feel like this approach would significantly reduce controversy by avoiding making firm statements until we know how history will view each console. CuteCucumber! (talk) 18:07, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

We waited around 3 months after the launch of both consoles before recognizing that enough sources considered these as "ninth generation" consoles. (see [2]) And given that we know the Xbox One is out of production and hints the PS4 is also in the same mode, it wouldn't make sense to include them alongside the PS5 and Xbox Series X/S Masem (t) 18:17, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

But 3 months isn't an indication of how history overall will view them. This is what lead to the issue with the Switch. We've been too quick to assign it a generation.

And yeah, both PS4 and Xbox One are on their way out but that still hasn't happened yet. Major games are still released for both. Heck, in the grand scheme of things you could even argue that X/S is just a continuation of Xbox One. It's simply too soon to make that call. CuteCucumber! (talk) 18:31, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

We weren't quick "assigning a generation" to the Switch at all. We delayed for nearly two years, while random editors would periodically edit it into both 8th and 9th gens. A discussion finally agreed the sourcing existed to place it in 8th gen. The same applies for the 9th gen itself with the Xbox Series X/S and PS5. A discussion occurred to weigh the existing sources, which is what Wikipedia is based on. We didn't straw poll whether we thought it was 9th gen or not, we looked at and reviewed reliable secondary sources and what they were saying. That isn't to say the consensus might not change in the future, but you're not arguing from a view of sourcing and consensus. Really, you're beating the dead horse to the point of disruption. -- ferret (talk) 22:09, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I feel like it's a mistake to come to a conclusion on a system's generation while it's still relevant in the marketplace. Even though some sources have placed Switch in ninth gen for now that fact could change later, like you admitted. Many major sources from the industry have not made the call either way. But we want to avoid having to reclassify systems later. What I'm arguing is that we admit that it's still too early to come to a consensus on theses systems, so instead the article should primarily focus on their continued relevancy instead of pretending like we can predict the future. CuteCucumber! (talk) 05:59, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

This is a poor summation of what happened, and lacks a solid rationale for changing things moving forward. It's as if you did no research on either. Sergecross73 msg me 23:15, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what event your referring too. Can you please be more clear? CuteCucumber! (talk) 05:45, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 November 2022

I'd like to add newer VR Headsets? 139.130.33.66 (talk) 03:22, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 04:02, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Inclusion of Switch for comparison?

Nintendo seems like they will be relying on the Switch for the next few years with almost zero information on its successor. By then, the Ninth generation of consoles will be middle aged (most console generations are about 7 years long on average). Should the Switch be included as a Ninth generation comparison? It looks odd not seeing Nintendo have a console listed for any generation after the second. A good example of a console in this grey generation area is the sixth gen Dreamcast releasing in 1998 and being discontinued before even the Xbox and Gamecube came out in 2001. ShadowDragon343 (talk) 23:03, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Bias against Nintendo

Sounds like this article is biased since Nintneod Switch is 8th gneerstion its supposed to compete with xbox s xbox x and ps5 also nintendo already had a wii u as its 8th gen console so the switch is its 9th gen console 71.241.133.136 (talk) 02:18, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Rather than cooking up baseless theories, try reading up on the past discussions in the talk page archives. Sergecross73 msg me 02:54, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Switch Lite as a Ninth Generation Console

Console generations are usually defined based on the other consoles that they compete against. And although the Switch is indeed competing the Eight/Ninth Generations, the Switch Lite is not really on that same market.

Taking into consideration that it is a handheld-only console, it should be compared with the other handhelds. And it does not compete with the 3DS nor the Vita, which are the main handheld consoles of the eight generation. And the same holds true when comparing it with all the other handhelds of the eighth generation: Neo Geo X, GCW Zero, Nvidia Shield Portable, etc, as the Switch Lite does not compete against any of those. In that sense, it should be actually considered the first handheld for the ninth generation.

And now we are seeing a boom in handheld consoles again, with the Switch Lite being its precursor, but also with other handhelds such as the Steam Deck (+ other Linux/Windows-based ones), Ayn Odin (+ other Android), and even smaller players like the Playdate, the Evercade (+EXP), the Analogue Pocket, that can be considered ninth generation, as they also don't compete in the same market generation of the 3DS or the Vita, or the other smaller players of that generation.

It may be a little difficult to think about it in that way because Sony, which was the other big player in the handheld market, completely gave up on it right after launching the Vita, and Nintendo was left without almost no real competition other than the Android/Windows-based handhelds that are coming now. So I would say that the article for the ninth generation should be organised to include some handheld consoles as the previous ones did, starting with the Switch Lite (moving it from the eighth), and maybe including some others.

As a side note: We have an example of a handheld version of a home consoles in the past in different generations, with the Sega Nomad being a fifth generation console, while its original home console (Sega Genesis) was released a few years before in the fourth generation. Imperadors (talk) 10:25, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

But it's literally the same thing as a regular Switch, only with a smaller screen and controllers that don't detach. The industry absolutely doesn't treat it as a separate thing from a separate generation. Sergecross73 msg me 11:55, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

It is neither sustainable nor understandable to maintain a Switch as an eighth generation console.

Let's calculate how long the switch has been competing with the 8th generation and with the 9th generation,

PS4 and XONE VS Switch: 3 years and 4 months

PS5 and XSeries VS Switch: 2 years and 8 months

As of April next year, the Switch will have spent more time competing against PS5 and Xbox Series as Nintendo's primary console, with no successor on the market, than it has against PS4 and Xbox ONE.

When that happens, it will be extremely awkward to have Switch as an 8th generation console, Switch's competitor in 2021, in 2022, in 2023 and in 2024 was PS5 and XSeries, not PS4 and XONE. 2.137.216.146 (talk) 17:19, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Please read up in some of the past discussions here and at the 8th gen article for a better grasp at all the factors at play here. Sergecross73 msg me 18:51, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

The only people who don't seem to have a grasp of the current console market are you and Masem. 182.18.225.7 (talk) 11:20, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia's consensus-building approach does not allow for such a situation. Masem and I are merely the only ones who take the time to respond to every half-baked proposal on this talk page. Sergecross73 msg me 14:26, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Proposal for a vote on the inclusion of the Nintendo Switch on the comparison chart

It appears that the Nintendo Switch is considered to be both an 8th and 9th generation system [3]. I would like to propose a vote to be held to determine if the Switch should be included in the ninth generation comparison for home consoles and handhelds. This would be the first time that a system would be compared on two different generation pages so I think it is prudent that a vote is held on this as it will affect how any future systems straddling generations will be handled. 142.161.119.190 (talk) 22:18, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

No, the Switch is not comparable in its tech specs to include here. We do not say it is both an 8th and 9th gen, only that it does compete with the 9th gen consoles. Masem (t) 22:30, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

No, it's not up to a popular vote, it's up to what reliable sources most commonly say. Sergecross73 msg me 23:45, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Maybe. I think only the OLED model should be considered. That said, if Nintendo releases a successor to the Switch, it should be in the table, not the OLED model. Also, the Nintendo Switch Lite is less capable than the regular Switch. --LABcrabs (talk) 13:41, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

There's absolutely no sourcing that supports that. No one considers the different models part of different generations. Sergecross73 msg me 14:02, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Maybe. Because the Switch does compete with the ninth gen, and is outselling it, there is definitely merit to including it. However, because, per sources ,it probably belongs with the 8th gen, I don't know if there's a good way to do it here without endorsing a stance. You'd need a big 'ol asterisk and probably want it hidden by default somehow, and I don't know that there's a good way to do that within the limitations of wikipedia tables.

I will say, that because it competes so directly with the 9th gen, there's a solid academic argument for including it. If someone wants to compare current options, it's janky to have to compare two tables on different pages. Since the best seller (total units) is switch... you'd want to see it included. Darkage7_[Talk] 19:22, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I think if we want the gens to have any meaning it should be based on release date and nothing else. As Tech has gotten to a point where there are reasons to release a Console that is not competitive on spec. Thus there is no good reason to split it over two gen especially it came out 4 years before the other 2 consoles in this gen. We also should not include the OLED model as that would create problems as we haven't categorized any other reversion of consoles as a different gen than the original Version. GonzoBlue (talk) 17:41, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what we want, we follow what reliable sources say. Anything else is original research. —  HELLKNOWZ ∣ TALK 17:51, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2023

41.7 million (as of 30 June 2023) GonzoBlue (talk) 17:31, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. You haven't provided what should be changed. Millows! | 🪧 19:02, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

References

Restore

Can you restore the old revisions of this page from May 2016 to June 2016? 174.27.188.30 (talk) 23:14, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

The article didn't exist until late July 2016. Sergecross73 msg me 23:36, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

They are referring to the deleted revisions. 2A02:9B0:405C:5B23:BCD0:8F23:45DA:9B0D (talk) 02:53, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

The only thing that page said before it was deleted was, in its entirety, "The Ninth generation of video game consoles is the theoretical pairing of recent console announcements by Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo. These consoles include Project Scorpio (Microsoft), Playstation Neo (Sony), and the Nintendo NX (Nintendo)." eg not at all helpful. Masem (t) 03:44, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Switch as a Ninth Gen - FTC Leak and the Reliability of the Sources Argument

Microsoft/Xbox has unfortunately failed to redact a lot of important files for the ongoing FTC case. This includes an email about Microsoft deliberately avoiding to name the Switch as a console. They clarified their intention as an attempt to decrease competition with Xbox Series X (referred to as Scarlett in the email) and PS5: https://twitter.com/ethangach/status/1703776402393182237

Edit: Adding imgur link in case the twitter post gets taken down - https://i.imgur.com/cz526Gd.png

In this case, doesn't this call into question Wikipedia's policy about how a video game generation should be defined? Wikipedia relies on "reliable" sources to define the generation and the current situation is that journalists and competitors alike don't see Switch as a competitor the current gen consoles. However, with the above leak, we can see that this isn't exactly an organic or spontaneous development. We can't speak for Sony or other third-party sources, but Microsoft themselves have a lot of influence in the industry. They specifically planned this. It's a marketing stunt to disincentivize consumers from viewing the Switch as a competitive console and even buying into its ecosystem. Who knows how far they've gone to discourage others from doing the same?

In that case, isn't it hard to argue that there are reliable sources for why Switch isn't a Ninth gen? When one source, arguably one of the biggest one at that, specifically did it for their own advantage? And their actions have an effect on the rest of the industry? Wikipedia's biggest policy loophole is that it allows the industry to manipulate sources. We rely on the industry to define the gen? But if some of the players define it in a way to benefit themselves? And not because they genuinely don't believe the consoles are part of the same gen? Isn't Wikipedia's adamant support on excluding the Switch from ninth gen comparisons basically playing into the hand of corporations like Microsoft? Helping them achieve their business plan to make more money by making Switch less competitive against other ninth gens? Can we prove that the sources are truly "reliable" and not affected by Microsoft's plan? How does the intention of the competitors play into this? Do we ignore Microsoft's intention?

Admins here have been debating about Switch's status for years, but the leak only shows that this type of reaction was planned by Microsoft in the first place. It's hard to say that the idea to put Switch as an 8th gen isn't tainted. I can already imagine the VP of Xbox, Aaron Greenberg (as seen in the leaked email), to be laughing at the discourse right here as Admins did exactly what Microsoft wanted. Samhiuy (talk) 08:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I've seen a lot of strange arguments on these talk pages, but "Xbox Execs are reading your talk page arguments and laughing at you" is probably a new low... Sergecross73 msg me 10:57, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

We know there are industries that also control most of the media associated with them as to manipulate perceptions (like in cryptocurrency, and we have taken steps to consider most of that unreliable) but there's zero indication that the video game industry is doing this to manipulate what WP says. Masem (t) 12:24, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

PS5 Slim internal Storage

The PS5 slim has 1TB of internal Storage, instead of 825GB of original model. 2804:1B3:A541:C9B6:5128:DA6C:868F:D08D (talk) 21:18, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

There's additional differences that we know exist but as this hasn't shipped yet, it doesn't make sense to add the Slim models yet until we have full tech specs. But yes, this does include the 1TB increase. Masem (t) 23:48, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

IGN source

https://www.ign.com/articles/when-is-the-ps6-release-date-speculation

Could be useful for the article - talks about the generations some, talks about "Switch being successful across 2 generations, which reinforces our current set up, etc. Sergecross73 msg me 19:36, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

IGN is as reliable as a source as any wikipedian here. Alcabcucu (talk) 06:18, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Not really sure what this is supposed to mean. IGN is a reliable source. "Wikipedians" themselves, are not. Wikipedians write Wikipedia articles and provide the sources, but they are not the sources themselves. They only write according to what sources say.

Regardless, this was already implemented 2 months ago shortly after I added this here. Sergecross73 msg me 15:10, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

This means that Matt Kim's comment about "Nintendo Switch being successful across 2 generations" in a random article from IGN in which he talks about the PS5 successor cannot be considered a reliable source.

The issue of Nintendo Switch being an 8th or 9th generation console will not be solved using this kind of source material.

In any case, it seems pretty obvious that right many reliable sources begin to consider Nintendo Switch as a 9th generation console and this article should be corrected accordingly. Alcabcucu (talk) 16:14, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

People say this, and yet, they never provide any reliable sources showing it. -- ferret (talk) 16:49, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

https://hackernoon.com/the-ninth-generation-console-war-who-is-winning

This is as reliable as the article posted by Sergecross73. Alcabcucu (talk) 20:20, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

It... absolutely is not. It fails almost all the hallmarks of WP:RS. It's a group blog site without editorial control. -- ferret (talk) 20:25, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I respect Wikipedia rules for reliable sources. Unfortunately, when referring to videogame web sites, editorial control is as good as the one there is in blogs or any other non "official" sites.

But I completely understand we need to respect and use the WP rules. In any case, I just was trying to share some thoughts about the article from IGN. And, in fact, I do not think the article reinforces the actual set up, as Sergecross73 states in his message.

Best regards, and have a good noght. Alcabcucu (talk) 20:50, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Hackernoon is a blog where anyone can sign up and submit information. It's fails WP:USERG. The IGN article was written by a senior editor of a major entertainment website. They're simply nothing alike. Sergecross73 msg me 20:54, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I think you should take the time to learn how Wikipedia evaluates source reliability. Once you learn that, you'll see how far that is from being a reliable, usable source on Wikipedia. It's not even close. Sergecross73 msg me 20:38, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

That is incorrect, IGN is absolutely a reliable source. They have a long-standing WP:CONSENSUS at WP:VG/S for being usable. You can't just hand wave that away by vaguely alluding to other evidence you don't even bother to provide. Sergecross73 msg me 18:07, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

While IGN is reliable, I have to question whether this particular article is. It seems to be more of an opinion piece/blog than a proper news article. For example, the paragraph talking about the Switch starts with "My gut tells me that we’re in a bit of uncharted territory right now." ~~ Jessintime (talk) 18:29, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I dont even know where to begin with this. For starters, it's not just some blog, it was written by IGN's Senior Features Editor. Even beyond that, I mean, realistically, what sort of reporting are you expecting here? Scientists to go into a lab, perform some tests, and give us the calculations that add up to 8 or 9? The generations are not some objective, actual thing. It's a loose classification system that tries to create an organization for a disparate group of hardware. Any RS reporting on it is going to be an opinion of sorts. Sergecross73 msg me 19:10, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I do not think that Matt Kim was even aware of his words when he wrote this part of the article. He was just adressing another topic and included this random thought as a way to reinforce the idea of this being a weird generation.

In any case, things are changing. At least now some people begin to accept that Nintendo Switch is "also" a 9th generation console. Alcabcucu (talk) 20:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

It's ludicrous to baselessly assert that a Senior Editor from a major mainstream website is not "aware of his words". Sergecross73 msg me 20:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

It is also ludicrous to baselessly assert that the article from IGN reinforces the current set up. In fact, from a strict point of view, it says that Nintendo Switch should be considered a videogame console from the present generation.

But more ludicrous it is, in my humble opinion, to consider this specific article as a reliable source.

In any case, I was just trying to share some thoughts. And being an admin and all, Sergecross73, I would apreciate you used a friendlier tone when answering other users' messages.

Thanks a lot. Alcabcucu (talk) 20:57, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

You haven't raised a single specific concern how the IGN source is actually implemented in the article, or the actual prose written in the article from it, nor have you addressed how multiple other sources are used to verify the same sentiment. So forgive me when it really just feels like you're flailing to discredit a source you don't personally agree with.

I'm generally sympathetic to newbies and try to help them get up to speed. But its irritating when people come in and start lecturing others when its very clear they do not understand Wikipedia's standards or polices, and don't seem particularly interested in learning them. Sergecross73 msg me 21:04, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, I'm very sorry for irritating you. I just hope next time you will not get irritated so easily.

I have raised very specific concerns: the link you posted does not reinforce the current set up. You are basing that assumption on a single line of an article that adresses a completely different topic and Matt Kim does not give a single argument to defend his statement.

You also fail to explain why the article reinforces the current set up. In fact, as i already said, I think it just does the opposite.

But as an admin you are clearly imposing your point of view and I will have to accept it.

Don't worry, I won't disturb you again.

Best regards. Alcabcucu (talk) 21:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Just to clarify, since you again have failed to do your research - the only this I have done was drop a link to an IGN article on this talk page saying "this could be useful". I did not add it to the article or write any of the prose. Sergecross73 msg me 21:32, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Just wanted to include some sources that consider that Nintendo Switch is a ninth gen console

Just wanted to add a few source material in which it is said that Nintendo Switch is a 9th generation console.

I do not know if these will be considered as reliable sources: hobbyconsolas appears in the RS:WP article. Xataka is a reliable source in the Spanish wikipedia, and Mundodiario and La Republica are well known newspapers.

https://www.hobbyconsolas.com/opinion/estamos-jugando-verdad-nueva-generacion-984883

"Se supone que ahora mismo, algunos privilegiados están jugando con la novena generación de consolas, una generación que, en realidad, inició Switch allá por 2017. "

"It is assumed that right now, some privileged people are playing with the ninth generation of consoles, a generation that, in fact, started with Switch back in 2017."

https://www.xataka.com/videojuegos/guerra-consolas-esta-generacion-playstation-5-casi-duplica-a-xbox-series-switch-sigue-inalcanzable

"Ya nos vamos acercando, mes arriba mes abajo, al ecuador de esta generación de consolas. Las dos específicamente de sobremesa, Playstation 5 y los dos modelos de Xbox Series debutaron hace tres años y un mes.

Acompañándoles, alguien que siempre cabalga por su cuenta en cualquier aspecto, Nintendo, que lanzó la Switch tres años antes... y cuyas ventas siguen inalcanzables para cualquier otra consola."

"We are already approaching, month up month down, the halfway point of this generation of consoles. The two specifically desktop ones, Playstation 5 and the two Xbox Series models debuted three years and one month ago. Accompanying them, someone who always rides on his own in any aspect, Nintendo, which launched the Switch three years earlier... and whose sales remain unattainable for any other console."

https://www.mundiario.com/articulo/sociedad/novena-generacion-videoconsolas-estrena-nintendo-switch/20170123172421077003.html

"La novena generación de videoconsolas se estrena con Nintendo Switch."

"The ninth generation of video game consoles debuts with Nintendo Switch."

https://www.larepublica.co/internet-economy/nintendo-switch-continua-siendo-la-consola-mas-vendida-durante-este-ano-3409407

"La novena generación de consolas trajo al mercado desde 2017 nuevas propuestas al mundo de los videojugadores."

"The ninth generation of consoles brought new proposals to the market since 2017 to the world of video gamers."

Please forgive me if you consider that these are not reliable sources. I'll keep looking for more material in other languages. Alcabcucu (talk) 11:20, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Until you understand how to identify reliable sources in the Wikipedia sense, you can use WP:VG/S to help you figure out which sources are usable or unusable. If a source isn't in the list, it's probably not exactly a strong enough source to do something important like defining an entire generation of an industry. Sergecross73 msg me 12:07, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I think all the sources I mentioned are reliable in the Wikipedia sense. acording to WP:VG/S and WP:RS.

Thanks for your piece of advice. I will continue searching for more reliable sources. Alcabcucu (talk) 12:27, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

That was not the correct takeaway from my advice. HobbyConsolas is the only source listed at VG/S, and your quote is a bit cherry picked, the overall context of the article is about a lot of uncertainty with the generations system on a whole. Bluffing your way through this isn't going to work. Sergecross73 msg me 12:30, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not bluffing. I'm being honest with my answer and, if I am wrong, I will gladly be corrected.

Hobby Consolas appears as a reliable source in WP:VG/S

Mundodiario and La Republica are important and well known newspapers in Colombia and Spain. According to WP:VG/S "Sources that otherwise are considered reliable sources in general, such as newspapers like The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal, magazines like Time and Fortune, and news networks like BBC and CNN, are also reliable for coverage of topics related to video games when they do report on these topics."

And finally Xataka, which is very similar to TechRadar but in Spanish, and it is considered a reliable source in the Spanish Wikipedia. WP: VG/S states that the list "is not meant to be exhaustive and only covers works that regularly report on video games and the industry". Xataka is more oriented to all kind of new tech but they also talk about videogames on a general basis. Alcabcucu (talk) 12:50, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

By the way, the line from the article from Hobby Consolas is not cherry-picked. It is the first line of the article and a statement of intents. In fact, the general conclusion of the article is that, being as difficult as it is to define a new generation of consoles, Nintendo Switch, unlike PS5 and Xbox Series, stands out as a console that makes a step forward towards different ways of gaming.

"Así, Nintendo Switch sí supuso una evolución en la manera de jugar con su formato híbrido, mejoró notablemente la tecnología de Wii U y su concepto supuso paso adelante para la industria.

PS5 y Xbox Series X|S todavía tienen que demostrar cómo y cuánto van a cambiar nuestra forma de disfrutar videojuegos, aún tiene que demostrar cuánto de lejos nos puede llevar su tecnología, pero sí aportan la suficiente evolución para hablar de nueva generación.

Pero, ¿es la misma? ¿Nos toca repartir generaciones para cada marca? Sony y Microsoft parecen ir más paralelas (aunque las líneas se empiezan a separar) y Nintendo hace años, muchos años, se desmarcó de la tendencia. ¿Qué hacemos con Stadia?

Yo prefiero quedarme con la idea de cada cambio relevante es un cambio de generación. Como con los modelos de los coches, no basta cambiar el guardabarros para considerar un modelo de nueva generación, pero si hurgas en el motor y cambias el bastidor y haces cositas como en el Audi A4 Avant…"

"Thus, Nintendo Switch did represent an evolution in the way of playing with its hybrid format, it significantly improved the Wii U technology and its concept was a step forward for the industry. PS5 and Xbox have yet to demonstrate how and how much they are going to change our way of enjoying video games, they have yet to demonstrate how far their technology can take us, but they do provide enough evolution to speak of a new generation. But is it the same? Do we have to distribute generations for each brand? Sony and Microsoft seem to be more parallel (although the lines are beginning to separate) and Nintendo years, many years ago, distanced itself from the trend. What do we do with Stadia? I prefer to stick to the idea that each relevant change is a generation change. As with car models, it is not enough to change the fender to consider a new generation model, but if you dig into the engine and change the frame and do little things like in the Audi A4 Avant..." Alcabcucu (talk) 13:01, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

When sources that are normally outside the realm of video games make statements in contrast with sources normally associated with video games, we are likely to defer to the latter when there is a conflict. A point from that last quote is that in the video game industry "generations" are not based on tech changes directly but by commercialization and marketing. It's why we consider the Switch both in the Eighth and Ninth generations. I would be extremely hesitant saying the ninth Gen started with the switch given all the sources we have stating that the ninth cane with the ps5 andbXbox Series X/S. Masem (t) 15:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Sergecross73 msg me 15:20, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Relevant tech changes are also marketing and commecialization. They always are. When Nintendo decided that Switch would be a hybrid machine, it was more a marketing decision than a technical decision. They decided that from a marketing point of view they would sale the product and position it on the global market as a hybrid console, and then they put the technical effort in order to make the product.

Hobby Consolas point of view is completely valid and in fact what Sonia Herranz does in her article is to specifically claim the right of Nintendo Switch to be considered -even more than PS5 or Xbox Series- a ninth generation device.

By the way, Hobby Consolas is a source that is completely related to videogames.

In any case, I am not trying to change anything right now. I am just adding new sources and perspectives in order to make us think about the current set-up of the article. Most sources, mainly from articles written in 2020, say that the 9th gen began that year. This is completely true, as it is also true that at that time Nintendo was completely ignored by the videogame press.

But things are begining to change and right now almost all sources consider that Switch lifecycle goes through both the 8th and the 9th generation. This is something that has no logical sense to me, but obviously sources have to be respected and my personal opinion is not relevant here.

Because of all this, I completely understand your hesitation to consider that the 9th gen began with Nintendo Switch, and I respect that.

Best regards. Alcabcucu (talk) 17:15, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Any major shifts are unlikely to happen until at least after the launch of the "Switch 2", which will no doubt inspire a lot new reliable source commentary on the state of the industry. Sergecross73 msg me 17:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I completely agree with you here. Alcabcucu (talk) 17:55, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Journalists didn't ignore Nintendo or the Switch in 2020, but acknowledged it was on a wholly separate tragectory than MS or Sony from a tech standpoint. But it still remained the third console in the commercialization mix. — Masem (t) 17:45, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I completely disagree. But this is a matter of opinion and it is not relevant here. Alcabcucu (talk) 17:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)