Talk:Nothing, Forever

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A fact from Nothing, Forever appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 2 March 2023 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Nothing, Forever is completely procedurally generated?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2023/March. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Nothing, Forever.

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Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 07:41, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment or view
Article history

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... that Nothing, Forever is completely procedurally generated? Source: "This Infinite Sitcom Generator Is Broadcasting A Show About Nothing, Forever"
- Reviewed:
- Comment: QPQ does not need to be met, as this is my second DYK nomination.

Created by ElijahPepe (talk). Self-nominated at 00:08, 2 February 2023 (UTC). Note: As of October 2022, all changes made to promoted hooks will be logged by a bot. The log for this nomination can be found at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Nothing, Forever, so please watch a successfully closed nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall:

@ElijahPepe: Good article. This honestly could mark the beginning of fully ai generated shows in the future when you think about it. Onegreatjoke (talk) 21:27, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2/6/23 In light of recent events, I strongly suggest pulling this nomination.

Support: This show is interesting, but maybe put an emphasis on errors in its programming that led to the suspension, or maybe wait a few weeks for the main heat to die down and when it’s up and running again, operating normally. The suspension cause is an obvious error that its developers have apologized for and corrected, don’t agree with pulling nomination over a temporary lapse. Justanotherguy54 (talk) 10:11, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Feedback from New Page Review process[edit]

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Good day! Thank you for creating the article. I hope you will create more articles in the future! Have a blessed day!

✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 03:37, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ongoing controversy after the transphobic standup routine and subsequent suspension of the channel.[edit]

Open forum on how to handle the article in the wake of the AI generated text yielding a series of anti transgender statements that likely were involved in the channel's abrupt suspension at approximately 3:30 AM EST. 73.111.148.178 (talk) 09:42, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The site currently just says This channel is temporarily unavailable due to a violation of Twitch's Community Guidelines or Terms of Service, with no reason given. We shouldn't put the whole thing into past tense and announce that it was shut down permanently today, from that. Belbury (talk) 09:51, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest that a note be made regarding the nature of the suspension. From discord itself, one of the admins reported the following

"Xander — Today at 3:43 AM

Hey everybody. Here's the latest: we received a 14-day suspension due to what Larry Feinberg said tonight during a club bit. We've appealed the ban, and we'll let you know as we know more on what Twitch decides. Regardless of the outcome of the appeal, we'll be back and will spend the time working to ensure to the best of our abilities that nothing like that happens again." 2601:243:1980:40C0:BDAD:B505:2C13:3699 (talk) 10:03, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just an FYI for anyone wondering if it actually happened I was watching it live and the AI made the joke that is in the Tweet, which I assume is got its account suspended. I'll leave it up to others to decide if a Tweet of the video where it made the transphobic jokes is a reliable source or not (although I did revert the revert that added it), but I wouldn't be surprised if there's some news coverage of the mistake eventually. I think the Discord admin's comment would be a reliable source for it though. --Adamant1 (talk) 10:17, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, Wikipedia will need a reliable secondary source to state that a specific joke that caused the suspension, if the dev statement is stopping short of saying that and only referring to "a club bit".

Very safe bet that online news sites are already rushing to write a search engine optimised article about this, though. --Belbury (talk) 10:25, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Belbury https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/02/endless-seinfeld-episode-grinds-to-a-halt-after-ai-comic-violates-twitch-guidelines/

This is the specific joke. Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 19:35, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Adamant1 Apologies forgot to tag Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 19:36, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This source also explicitly says it was the reason. Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 19:36, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As I say below, Vice is careful to state that neither Twitch nor the Nothing Forever devs have explicitly connected the ban to any specific dialogue, and instead attribute the connection to Discord users. If that nuance is being lost in the Ars Technica "according to Vice" story (which seems a simple rehash of what Vice have said rather than adding any new information), Wikipedia should be careful it's not going down that same route. Belbury (talk) 19:46, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sort of ok with the article as is, after edit to "offensive", while I actually like the more specific "transphobic", that was reverted. Note the latter is still in the main text, along with "homophobic" which shouldn't be there. I at least see no source for it (in Vice article), which isn't the same as "transphobic". Possibly it applies. I don't have time to look into this all, I also answered on my talk page, after two reverts, explaining I don't agree with the latter one. I don't want to edit further (come close to WP:3RR). I was mostly editing for the AI angle. My addition on brain size is true, not WP:OR (or WP:SYNTH), just an (irrelevant?) fact, while not a huge deal if left out. comp.arch (talk) 19:11, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't really matter why there was a ban, or even if. Just that it's claimed that the AI went transphobic (by "fans"), and Vice (and I see it's not the only news site to say so) thought it was notable enough to make a story about might qualify for the article and the lead. I mean even if there had been no ban, so it's a red herring to know for sure the cause why banned (which likely will never be given anyway). And stating the ban followed (not "was sue to") is ok. comp.arch (talk) 19:27, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Stating that the stream was banned "following" a particular line of dialogue is technically chronologically true, but misleading for implying a level of causation that hasn't yet been confirmed. The Vice article headlines with a dramatic "Banned on Twitch After Transphobic Standup Bit" and puts that into more context as it goes on. Per WP:HEADLINES, Wikipedia shouldn't write its coverage like that. Belbury (talk) 10:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should be careful about saying or implying in Wikipedia's voice that this suspension was definitely due to the transphobic content, when the Vice source doesn't go that far. Although Vice says that the suspension happened "after" the comments, it's careful to say that Twitch hasn't confirmed whether this was the reason for the ban, instead saying that "users in the project's Discord have been pointing to this joke as the reason". --Belbury (talk) 18:16, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Belbury This is very fair and a good call, upon further thought. Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 19:50, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately Twitch doesn't give specifics when they suspend an account. I can almost guarantee the account was suspended due to the transphobic content though since there was really nothing else outside of those specific jokes that would have led to it. Not to say I'm a reliable source or that my opinion should be cited in the article though. Just that I guess 1. Twitch isn't going to give a specific reason 2. If the suspension is mentioned in the article then probably it should say something like "it's speculated that the transphobic/homophonic jokes were the reason for the suspension. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:22, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:Belbury, you reverted me because "Per talk page, Vice article's smoking gun is 'users in the project's Discord have been pointing to this joke as the reason for the ban'; Wikipedia shouldn't quote the headline's implicit after-because in its." Agree 100 percent we shouldn't definitively state that the ban was because of the transphobic bit. However, your version makes it sound like Twitch definitely banned the stream for that reason. "On February 6, 2023, the Twitch channel for Nothing, Forever received a 14-day suspension for a sequence of dialogue that broke Twitch's terms of use". We only know that it was banned. We don't know that it had anything with the dialogue. Also we don't need to reiterate who Larry Feinberg is. Schierbecker (talk) 21:36, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Vice source quotes the devs as saying Hey everybody. Here's the latest: we received a 14-day suspension due to what Larry Feinberg said tonight during a club bit., so we know it was something to do with generated dialogue, but that's all. Being more specific wouldn't hurt though, you're right, I'll make an edit. Belbury (talk) 22:02, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good. Thanks. Schierbecker (talk) 22:54, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]