Talk:Omar Khayyam/Archive 1

comments

I have removed this from the subject page, and replaced it with the Fitzgerald version it replaced, because this is not "Fitzgerald's XII." If someone wants to put this in instead of Fitzgerald's (which I think is a good idea for several reasons), also change the attribution to whose it is. -- isis 03:46 Oct 10, 2002 (UTC)

"A Book of Verses underneath the Bough,

A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread--and Thou

Beside me singing in the Wilderness--

Oh, Wilderness were Paradise enow!"

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I am restoring the above verse to the subject page. It is by Fitzgerald and is by far the best known version (XII of the Fifth Edition [1] -- JDG 04:02 Oct 15, 2002 (UTC)

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I have no access to a paper version, but the Project Gutenberg etext #246, linked in the references of The Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám, numbers the above quatrain as XI not XII. It definitely is by Futzgerald according to this source as well. So the only remaining dispute is whether it is XI or XII, isn't it? Since there is no further attribution questions, I have no objections against putting it back. BACbKA 21:34, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

actually, the difference is in the editions. It was XI in the 1st one and was shifted to XII in a later edition. BACbKA 16:43, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Whatever it is, since the dispute on this page began, it was moved over to the Rubayyat... article, and now the quatrain is featured there, not here, with the Fitzgerald's attrib. As no further dispute is happening here, I am removing the {{disputed}} tag. BACbKA 08:58, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

why no mention of his contributions to Algebra...?? (unsigned, by User:68.198.144.175 02:07, 1 Feb 2005)

To Some Turkish and Arab friends: Don't be shy, maybe you can find a way to claim his originality as you have tried on many other Persian scholars!, thanks.

=

hi there, there is or was a TV drama based on Omar Khayyám's character, in Arabic with an English subtitle,vied through out the Mid east through out ART channel (also viewable in the States) i think it should be mentioned in the Historical Fiction section or the Popular culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.60.99.112 (talk) 15:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The wiki page Khayyam

Previously the wikipage Khayyam was a redirect to this page.. (added just last month) now I have put a stub for the Indian music composer Khayyam there and a disambiguation link to this page. Note that even though the composer's name is made of 3 words, he is known all over India as just Khayyam.

Regards Spundun 04:16, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Fitzgerald

It may be useful to add that among many modern translators it is widely agreed that Fitzgerald’s translation takes many vast liberties with the literal translations of Khayyam’s poems. In fact most would say that the work of Fitzgerald, though the most commonly known, can’t even really be called the work of Khayyam at all. This I think at least deserves a brief explanation.

It is difficult to translate anything from one language to another that is radically different, let alone poetry with it`s emphasis on rhythm and rhyme. Fitzgeraald did sometimnes draw on more than one verse of Khayyams to arrive at one of his own. To compare a literal translation with the Fitzgerald work, try www.okonlife.com.

RDMII

This is explained adequately on the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam page, which discusses the variety of translations. Man vyi 05:40, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

The Life of Omar Khayyam

Omar's life was sufficiently interesting to include, however all I recollect of it is that he was a contemporary of the infamous "Old Man of the Mountain", Hassan-i-Sabbah, the founder of the Hashishin, the original assassins. There is no profoundly concrete indication that the two actually met, but a few legends state that they did, and if they had concourse to eachother, doubtlessly there was less a dramatic meeting than is portrayed in the films about the persion poet Khayyam.

Thankfully, I`ve not seen the films mentioned. No doubt they`re dreadful ! I can clarify the story you mention to some extent. Fitzgerald quotes the writings of Nizam Ul Mulk, a vizier on this subjest. Nizam studied under an Islamic scholar Imam Mowaffak of Naisapur alongside Hasan Ben Sabbah and Omar Khayyam. The three pledged that if one attained high office, he would share his good fortune with the others. Nizam Ul Mulk indeed achieved the post of vizier. Hasan Ben Sabbah approached him citing their agreement and asked for a post in government. This was granted but he became frustrated with his lot in life and involved himself in `intrigues`, eventually attempting to overthrow either the Vizier or the Sultan, I am unclear which. Having failed at this, he threw in his lot with a sect called the Ismailiads and forged them into a more formidable body. Some sources apparently believe they were known as `Assasins` (perhaps meaning `followers of Hasan`) though Fitzgerald seems to doubt this.

Omar Khayyam also approached the Vizier but his request was only "to live under the shadow of your good fortune", to spread the knowlefdge of science and to "pray for your long life and prosperity". The Vizier settled a pension on him, so that he had something to live on while he pursued his interests. If someone did that for me, I`d pray for their long life and prosperity too !!

I have added a section which includes this information. I am aware that this story is not without contoversy. Some qualifying or alternative view points on this topic may be advisable. I am not a scholar of this topic, but I thought I would at least get the ball rolling. There are references which support the information which I have added. My version of the Rubaiyat has a forward by Fitzgerald which cites to the Wasiyat (or Testament) of Nizam-ul-Mulk, as quoted in the Calcutta Review No. 59, from Mirkhond's History of the Assassins. I welcome improvements or alternative views of the history which others may add. Kmorford 23:32, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Native language variants of the name

I assume that the given traditional long English name Ghiyath al-Din Abu'l-Fath Umar ibn Ibrahim Al-Nisaburi al-Khayyami corresponds to the Arabic variant (Farsi is a bit different, as you can see from the data on the page). Could someone with enough knowledge check this and perhaps add it in the native Arabic script (+ an accurate transcription)?--Imz 01:23, 22 October 2005 (UTC) Khayyám means "tentmaker" in the Persian language. actully it means tent maker in Arabic

The DVD

Dang it. I cant find "the keeper" anywhere on DVD. Has it even been released yet?--Zereshk 01:06, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

The cool image at de:

The article over at de: inlcudes a cool image, de:Bild:Chayyam_guyand_kasan_behescht_ba_hur_chosch_ast_small.png. Can somebody please translate the quatrain in it? Also, does the shape have some special significance in the Islamic/Persian ornament tradition? It would be nice to have here as well with an appropriate annotation. BACbKA 01:05, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

The German is an equivalent to FitzGerald's XII (1869) or XIII (1889). Consulting my 1896 multilingual Variorum edition, it appears not to be by Von Schack or Von Hammer-Purgstall.

For comparison, Von Hammer-Purgstall's goes thus:

Der sprichst mir von Huris, vom Paradiese,

Von Edens lusterfüllter goldner Wiese.

Geh nimm den Pfennig hin und lass mich geh'n

Von ferne nur hõrt sich die Trommel schõn.

Man vyi 15:06, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

From the Project Gutenberg edition:

XII.

"How sweet is mortal Sovranty!"--think some:

Others--"How blest the Paradise to come!"

Ah, take the Cash in hand and waive the Rest;

Oh, the brave Music of a distant Drum!

My German is close to nothing so I can't tell how close to the German translation you cite. It would also be great to know an exact (literal as opposed to poetic) translation of the original, to annotate the image in the full colors before moving it over to the commons.w.o. Could somebody who knows Persian please help? BACbKA 18:52, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

My primitive German (with the help of online dictionaries) manages this:

One says, the paradise with maidens is satisfying

I find alone the vine juice ravishing!

Take this cent and the promised treasure let go,

Because the sound of the war drum is only from a distance delightful.

But that is only a translation of the German translation of the Persian, which gets us no more forward. Incidentally, I rather like Whinfield's rendering:

They preach how sweet those Houri brides will be,

But I say wine is sweeter - taste and see!

Hold fast this cash, and let that credit go,

And shun the din of empty drums like me.

Man vyi 19:51, 1 January 2006 (UTC) (quoting Now the New Year reviving old desires... all day long today)

Recent addition on cubics by User:203.145.159.44

Can someone please add sources for the <subj>? Some other edits by this IP that I've checked are pretty dubious, yet some are pretty normal ones. I've posted a note on their talk page as well. --BACbKA 20:01, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I've checked our article on Menaechmus and Britannica's article. Allay your concerns- the edit is accurate. --maru (talk) Contribs 22:32, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I have wfied Menaechmus over here accordingly then. Did some cleanup there as well... --BACbKA 23:26, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I`m surprised so many people can address rather rarified questions concerning Omar Khayyam without addressing the matter of his intentions when he wrote the Rubaiyyat. Is it likely this skilled mathematician, astronomer and scientist meant the philosophy expounded to be taken literally ? Is it a subtle joke ? A veiled form of religious heresy ? I don`t know and don`t claim to. I`d be interested to know what others think.

Omar Khayyam the Skeptic citation?

Hi -- I'm curious about the 'poems' contained in the "Omar Khayyam the Skeptic" section of this article. While the article contains information about the translator, it does not include any information about where these poems are taken from. Are they part of the Rubaiyat? If not, where? If so, what lines? Why is this section called 'poems' (plural)? Is this a single poem that consists of a series of verses? A fragment of a larger piece?

The article could also use more information in this section. Rather than only reproducing lines of poetry, a summery of Khayyám's positions and writings that pertain to skepticism, as well as critical sources would be helpful.

As the article is now formated, these lines are just kind of sitting there without any explaination or context. ~CS 04:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, infact they are part of his collection of rubai's. And as quatrains, are things unto themselves more or less - thus 'poems'. The precise numbering would depend on the version. But I recognize some of these verses readily because they have been very close to my own heart ever since I first read Fitzgerald's version. I always found it ironic that the Islamic Republic of Iran had such a beautiful monument for him! Khirad^talk 07:09, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that citing these quatrain's and touting them as proof of atheism/skepticism is very encylclopedic. They could just as easily display Sufi sentiments as skeptic ones. 81.129.208.192 23:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Non-euclidian geometry?

"...and authored proofs exploring properties of figures in non-euclidean geometry."

Could the author elaborate on this? I find it hard to believe. --Sergei

I did a little looking it up, and I've clarified it accordingly. --maru (talk) contribs 03:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure that it was in England that they came to influence the founding non-Euclidean geometry? The founders of the disapline were all continental Europeans. A Geek Tragedy 17:13, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

May 31 or May 18

His birth is listed under the "May 31" article and not "May 18". Bug?

18.V 1048 is correct (Tadzhik encyclopedia).--Constanz - Talk 17:02, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Concerning the "three schoolfellows"

According to Appendix 1 of the Penguin Classics version of The Rubay'iyat, translated by Peter Avery and John Heath-Stubbs, the story of the three schoolfellows is "improbable. Nizam-ul-Mulk was about 30 years older than the other two men, whose ages were likewise incompatible with their having been in the same class at school together. Moreover, there is nothing to suggest that Hasan Sabbah spent any of his boyhood in Nishapur, the home of the other two." They present other reasons for which the story may have been invented, based on work by Harold Bowen.

When I added this section, I also added a comment under the heading "Life of Omar Khayyam" (above) in which I acknowledged that these types of questions exist. There are, however, also good sources which exist, cited in my comment above, which support this story. I therefore felt that the information needed to be included in the article. It may be appropriate to include some type of reference to the alternative views which question that information.Kmorford 18:05, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Bernard Lewis also disputes this in his book The Assasins FaustX 23:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)