Talk:Operation Osoaviakhim

Aftermath

During the 1970s one of the UK TV companies traced several of the German scientists that had been recruited to work in post 1945 Russia and Gotrupp's widow. Two of the scientists had later become full professors. This programme was broadcast under some title such as "Secret War".

Their various accounts were a fascinating insight into the immediate post war scientific years but general consensus of their opinions were that as the Russians had world class scientists of their own, the Germans added little.

My own video of this programme has deteriorated too badly to be played does anybody know where I can get a copy?AT Kunene (talk) 10:04, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Neutrality

Recent expansion of this article appears very one sided, particularly as it has removed all mention of similar operations conducted by other WW2 allies, ie Operation Paperclip, Operation Lusty, Fedden Mission, Operation Alsos, Operation Big, Operation Epsilon etc. I have added back a brief section to the lead that was previously deleted, but it needs a lot more work. Also appears to be over relying on German analysis and views, particularly Olaf Przybilski, would suggest that views from other sources be included, for example Anatoly Zak's | German contribution in the Soviet rocketry: Myth and Reality, Michael J. Neufeld's The Nazi aerospace exodus: towards a global, transnational history, Asif Siddiqi's | Challenge to Apollo and Boris Chertok's | Rockets and People Volumes 1-4 I have also added back the 'expand from the Russian article' tag that was recently removed, that would also provide a more balanced, npov article.Ilenart626 (talk)

This article is on the Soviet Operation Osoaviakhim, it's goal is not to provide an overview of all operations in which German professionals were poached by Allied nations. I don't think the lack of mention of Western operations is because of a non-neutral POV. The article on Operation Paperclip barely mentions Osoaviakhim or Russian Alsos, that's just because neither events are directly related to Paperclip. Olaf Przybilski seems to be a reliable source and I don't think his views should be discounted just because he's German, from a brief skim it does not seem that there is anything in those articles you linked that directly contradicts him, if they do, you're welcome to expand on this article yourself. This doesn't seem to warrant a NPOV tag. Meeepmep (talk) 08:55, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Last sentence in the first paragraph

"It took place in the early morning hours of October 22, 1946 when MVD (previously NKVD) and Soviet Army units under the direction of the Soviet Military Administration in Germany (SMAD), headed by Ivan Serov.[1][2][3]" This sentence doesn't make sense and needs changing, but I'm not sure what is trying to be said. I assume it's missing a mention of extraction of people or similar Jbell179 (talk) 21:44, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Parallels with other Allied operations

Although there was a similar interest in military specialists and scientists from Germany along with Alsos Mission, Operation Paperclip and Russian Alsos, there was no forcible threat in general as compared to Operation Osoaviakhim where specialists and their families were forcibly displaced to the USSR on short notice. For Operation Paperclip, the Germans (Wernher von Braun and approx. 120 others) voluntarily applied and contracted for work in the US (as reported by Neufeld etc.). The Russian Alsos also relied on voluntary cooperation of Manfred von Ardenne and other specialists (although they might have exerced some pressure for cooperation). The British approach under Alsos Mission (and Operation Epsilon) was cruder and did not ask for agreement when Werner Heisenberg and other German nuclear scientists as well as Walter Dornberger were imprisoned in England for some while. Therefore @user:ilenart626 should explain which (general) parallelity with other Allied operations he has in mind. SchmiAlf (talk) 14:39, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Its not hard to find sources highlighting other Allied operations used force and threats to relocate German specialists. This article How T-Force abducted Germany's best brains for Britain is a British example, note the following quote:

”Recently declassified secret documents reveal how at the end of the second world war an elite British unit abducted hundreds of German scientists and technicians and put them to work at government ministries and private firms in the UK… the declassified papers make clear that for more than two years after the cessation of hostilities the British authorities were subjecting them to a programme of "enforced evacuation".

For US activities see U.S. Policy and German Scientists: The Early Cold War which highlights:

” Reveals US secret operations whereby German scientists and technical personnel and their families were forcibly removed from Soviet-designated Saxony and Thuringia and brought to US-occupied territory. Most were not then employed by the Americans but were ignored and abandoned.”

Its obvious from the above sources that after WW2 the other Allies created a myth that only the Soviets were forcibly relocating German scientists & specialists. The reality is they were secretly doing the same thing, which was revealed once the documents were declassified.

SchmiAlf I note that you do not quote any sources in either your arguments above, or your edit of this article, “… but in most cases without forcible threats.”. Do you have any sources that support your assertion? If not I suggest you revert your edit. Ilenart626 (talk) 12:23, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

As you say and I admitted, there were several cases of forcible removal in 1945, immediately after the end of WW2, or the Operation Overcast with interning some 500 rocket specialists in Southern Germany, most of them voluntarily surrendered to the US Army as they were threatened as hostages by the SS. But neither the quantity (several hundreds), the duration (several weeks up to two years) nor the scope (interrogation) are comparable to Operation Osoaviakhim (around 2,500 specialists / up to 12 years / work for Soviet military industry without contracts). Although I agree to delete my added statement, I'm still searching for a way to address the "different order of magnitude" in the lede. SchmiAlf (talk) 17:36, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Your changes look fine to me. If I have time will add some details and links to the sources to the body of the article, plus will look to see if the US and British articles reference these details / sources Ilenart626 (talk) 22:57, 17 October 2023 (UTC)