Talk:Park golf

I think this article needs a photograph of a park golf course and/or ball to be more encyclopedic. Heh.RabidDeity 05:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you are right. The game of Park Golf deserves such an honour. I take the photos on Saturday and post them over the weekend.

Pictures are up. Also, the point has been raised that the equipment used to hit the ball should be refered to as a stick rather than a club. I cannot disagree more. There is no sport in the world that uses sticks (except the uncouth quasi-sport of stick-ball) and I think it is an embarrassment to the fine game of Park Golf to use such a vulgar term. Furthermore, from this point hencefore, players should be referred to as Parkers instead of Golfers. Miyazaki203 00:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I see all the courses listed so far are in Miyagi Prefecture. The Parkers of Miyagi must indeed be a committed bunch. Hopefully residents in other parts of Japan will add to this wonderfully informative page. Has anyone nominated it for an award?

I resent the implication that the Magnum F ball is "slightly feminine". You need a citation for such remarks. 219.166.245.4 03:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Fixed it. It now reads "wholly feminine". 219.166.245.4 05:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The site has been vandalised. Banpei has wiped out huge chunks of the site and lot left any comment as to why. I suggest we revert the page to its state before his unwelcome arrival. Any objections?

I edited it because you could fill a terabyte harddrive with the amount of people who don't play, and I highly doubt Jesus played park golf. So, unless you can site sources, and if this page doesn't take Wikipedia seriously then I will fix it. In the future please sign your comments, and I have asked an outside party to aid in fixing this page. Banpei 04:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

You can bring in all the taskforces you like, but you know nothing about the game of Park Golf. I play it regularly, and I can spot many accurate comments that you have removed. I accept there had to be changes made to streamline the page, but you efforts have actually destroyed a lot of good quality work on a sport that very few English speakers actually play. I don't know what others think about this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.121.170.116 (talk)

This may be true, but there's also a lot of untrue info on the page. Better incomplete than incorrect. --Sopoforic 08:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it might be quality work, but if it's false or unsubstantiated then it doesn't belong on Wikipedia. And yes, I do know nothing of Park Golf, but I also know a tall tale if I see one. I have removed the accessory section, but if you can find the link to a moveable golf wheelchair ramp that needs to be brought to every different hole for $100,000 then it should be referenced. The same goes for the $2,500 park golf stick. Banpei 09:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

removed sections

I removed the following sections because they sound specious. (Carrying a ball on your shoe sounds like it would unbalance your stride and the weight of carrying a ball would not cause me to put it in my shoe but in my pocket, even if I had to have larger pockets sewn.) The etiquette sounds ridiculous, at least the part about interfering with shots; that's bad sportsmanship. Laughing at bad shots or trying to psyche out your opponent sounds plausible.

If you restore any of this material please document it before doing so.

Ball Holders

A crucial advantage is gained by many competitors when they buy a ball holder. By attaching this to your shoe, you avoid the real inconvenience of having to carry your ball to the next tee-off area, thus lessening the load on your arms and gaining that vital edge. The design of these accessories varies, and Parkers have become a fashion conscious bunch in the last few years. The most expensive ball holder costs 6,000 yen. This luxurious leather item can hold two balls, and even has a space for the Parker's cell phone.

Etiquette

(Was level 2 heading, levl 3 here for appearance) In Park Golf it is quite accepted, even expected, for players to laugh at each others bad shots. In fact many players even try to put each other off their shots. Parkers should also take care to interfere in each other's games, and point out minor rule infringements.

Is there anyone who has ever played park golf? After reading through the page itself, and then through comments to attempt to figure out why someone wrote the page in such a manner, I am left baffled. I personally love playing park golf and participate in tournaments, but I have never heard of players "putting eachother off" or goading each other as if it is part of the sport itself. I'm sorry to say, but this article is probably the most biased article I've ever read on wikipedia. I hope people won't mind terribly if I erase the methods of play section as it is entirely false! Captain Ironspine 16:30, 1 December 2006

I think that most of us haven't played and know nothing of it aside from what we've been told on this talk page. I'm sure that nobody minds you erasing false information from the article; rather I very much appreciate it. Since you've played the game, it'd be wonderful if you could help to fill it in with correct information. All I knew enough about park golf to do was to delete the most obvious nonsense; unfortunately I cannot myself replace it with good information. Any help you can offer would be welcome indeed. --Sopoforic 16:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

It seems there has been a fair share of non-sense on this topic. Park Golf is very much like regular golf as far as rules are concerned. I will try to find a rule book in a store to help and to cite as reference, but honestly I have never seen one. Where the hell is this crap coming from that there are rules about what to do if a fox takes your ball? No, this is not rocket science. It is an enjoyable game that is easily played while enjoying nature, and conversing with older people who frequent the parks. Captain Ironspine 17:58, 2 December 2006

Miyazaki203 claimed that there was such a rule citing this page as a reference. I don't read Japanese, so I can't verify it myself, and machine translation doesn't yield useful results. That site does seem to list rules, so if you can translate them (and summarize) then please do insert them into the article and cite that website as the source. --Sopoforic 21:35, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

We have a rule book, and suggest you get hold of one. They are widely available. The fact that you have never seen one does not support your argument. There is a rule about what happens when a fox interferes with your ball, and Miyazaki 203 has cited a source. I don't think anyone needs you to explain how katakana relates to roman text. However, the product is sold as a ball horder. End of argument. It doesn't matter what you think it should be called, or what you think it was supposed to be called. It is being sold as a ball horder. The mounted shoe clip is very common in Miyagi. About 1 in four players uses it, and it is becoming more common. If you had read the page as thoroughly as you claim Captain Ironspine, you would have noticed that there are several refences to wikipedians playing the sport and actually being commited Parkers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.91.18.13 (talk)

I am challenging exactly how much you know about park golf. I am challenging that it is a holder and not horder. http://www.apga.jp/fun/rule.html, http://www.asics.co.jp/recreation/parkgolf.html, http://www.pg-v.com/, I will translate any one of the sites for anyone who wants to know. I read your site verification for the international park golf association. Can you read? Those are funnies. When you play, what rules do you play by? I've read closely, and I seriously question your "commitment" to park golf. Please remember this is an article for wikipedia about park golf, generally accepted and verifiable truth. Not two guys' personal version. I don't care about your argument with me, get tons of real evidence, research the hell out of it, write a good article for wikipedia. Just watch your bias, as what you've been writing so far is full of it. Captain Ironspine 18:29, 11 December 2006 UTC

Challenge all you like. The consensus on the horder issue is very clear. I think others will agree that your contributions so far have bordered on the comic. You miss the point about the horder. It does not matter what YOU think. It is being sold as a HORDER. This makes it a product. Regardless of what you think the maker's(check out the apostrophe) intentions were, it is a horder, and you have no right to make arbitrary changes because you THINK it might be something else. Where would this nonsense end? In any case, there is a historic precedent for such things. I will leave it to Miyazaki 203 to argue the point over the Japanese rulebook. The comment about bias, like so much of what you write, is a load of cobblers. How can one show bias over such a trivial issue, when no direct interest is involved? Get a grip. Just watch your bullshit - what you have been writing so far is full of it. And your punctuation. "TWO GUY'S" - note the location of the apostrophe. Now I have better things to do than continue an argument with a delusional illiterate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.166.245.4 (talk)

Please, calm down. We aren't any of us trying to make things difficult. It is understandable that you can get worked up since we seem to be having a little trouble agreeing with one another. Perhaps you should take a break from this article from a little while. Edit something else, or just relax and let tensions lower. We all have the same goal, even if we have difficulty working together for it. I'm sure we'll be able to come to an agreement, given time. --Sopoforic 07:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

No. I will contribute when I like, and to whichever article I feel like. The only problem here is that people who know nothing about the subject matter are wasting everybody's time with stupid points. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.91.20.7 (talk)

Of course you're free to do that. I just wanted to suggest it, since you were making some rather unflattering comments about Captain Ironspine. It's true that the things we've been discussing are pretty minor, but it's in part for just the reason you said--we don't know anything about park golf, so we can really only contribute to the small things which we can discuss here. Anyone can copyedit, but we have to rely on people with knowledge of the subject to deal with the bigger issues. If you think we're wasting time, you don't have to get involved in the small debates. You can feel free to contribute however you please to the article, and as long as you support what you write nobody will be anything but grateful for your contribution. --Sopoforic 21:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Captain Ironspine, I appreciate the links but not the snide comments. I chose to put the IPGA site here for two reasons: first, because the IPGA is the ULTIMATE AUTHORITY on all things park golf. The Aomori Park Golf Association can put up all the rules they want but if they disagree with the IPGA, then we must defer the IPGA. Luckily, after reading both sites, there doesn't seem to be any disagreements, so I thank you for a link that backs up my position. Secondly, the IPGA site is the most accessable site for those who cannot read Japanese (eg. non-Japanese and children, as the website authors intended). As for your claim that the IPGA website containing "funnies", using comics (manga) is a culturally appropriate form of communication in Japan. (Here is a University Prep book of World History, Manga version).

I will take up your offer of translation. That third link, Park Golf View Magazine, please find and translate anything relevant to this discussion. It seems to me that you cut and pasted "パークゴルフ" into Google and picked three sites off the first page of search results. So far, you have offered no new information, except claiming a park golf club looks like a golf wedge, which is clearly false (and there are pictures that show this). いい加減しろよ。Miyazaki203 04:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

yen?

Does anyone know the current conversion rate for yen and dollars, off hand? RJFJR 21:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Right now it's $1 = 115.9 yenBanpei 23:39, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

accessory

The article says: "It is not unusual to see players with several balls clipped to their waist-mounted ball horder."

Is that a hoRder or a hoLder? Can we get a picture of one? RJFJR 21:39, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'm trying not to laugh, but it is not "hoRder". Yes, the kana on every package for a ball holder is written in the kana "horuda". That is straight-up english, using katakana to write the sound out in. The sound "ru" is commonly used to sound for the "l" sound used in other languages. It is English for "hoLder" to be absolutely clear. Oh yeah, and not everyone uses a shoe clip to carry their balls around. In fact, that accessory is so minor it probably shouldn't be mentioned in this article as it is not necessary to or popular in park golf. It is just another strange invention that has an incredibly small market, something that always passes after a short time in japan. I've never seen anyone in all of akita prefecture ever use one. I have only ever seen them at the 100 en store amoung other piles of useless crap. Captain Ironspine 17:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Some very basic mistakes being made here. The smallest amount of research would tell you that most Parkers use a shoe clip to carry the ball around the course. Clubs ARE available for upto 30 Man. No club is available for 900 yen. CHANGE THIS. It is a horder. DO you think we could wait until we delete more of this site until you people actually find out something about Park Golf? Link to the Japanese site and look at the pictures if you like. But stop vandalising the site. If we have to include pictures of every single item, then the page will just be a ociture book and you will probably complain about that as well. And it would be hard to actually prove the etiquette, but anyone who has lived in Japan would know these sorts of things to be true. Now I have to go and actually play Park Golf now...something I suspect none of the vandals have ever done. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.38.21.46 (talk)

If you will provide links showing the various accessories, we'll gladly list those as references and accept them. The issue I have isn't with the existence of these things, necessarily. But I think you will agree that some of the things on the page were utter nonsense. I personally cut the things that I thought were most probably nonsense, and those I couldn't verify. I'm sure that we both want this article to be as useful and correct as possible, so I hope you'll bear with us while we try to sort out the good information from the nonsense. --Sopoforic 04:21, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I've been looking around as best I can, but the only site I can find in English that mentions park golf is [1]. That page mentions only a belt-clip type of ball holder (and isn't very complimentary to park golf, actually). If you could take a picture showing several of the accessories together then we could label it with what it contains and put it in the article. We don't really want too many pictures, but one or two showing several things in each would be helpful both to illustrate the article and to provide evidence. Incidentally, are you the same person as Miyazaki203? I'd like to know how many people I'm talking to. If you are, please try to log in when posting, and if not, please consider creating an account. It'd help me (and others) to keep track of the conversation and your contributions, as well as let you more easily keep tabs on this page to help stop vandalism. --Sopoforic 06:22, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is an on-line park gold sales site. http://www.eniwa-choice.com/cgi-shopbuilder2_all/shop/top.html You can see a BALL HORDER on this page; as well, if you follow Club >> Honma you can see a club for roughly 1300 USD. Miyazaki203 02:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll look into that shortly. I'll accept that the site says 'ball horder,' but I'm not so sure it isn't just a bad romanization of 'ball holder,' and if that's so, then it'd be best to write it as intended rather than as written. I will look into it, though. Thanks for the link. --Sopoforic 04:21, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I've been trying to find any textual references to 'ball horder,' but a google search for that phrase only returns two results, neither of which is what we're looking for. Granted, google is probably quite slanted toward English results, and I was using latin characters anyway, but this indicates that 'ball horder' is just a bad romanization of 'ball holder.' Unfortunately, I'm having some difficulty finding any sites about park golf at all, which makes it a bit harder for me to verify anything. If you know of any sites in English that talk about park golf, or even japanese sites that are sufficiently illustrative that I can get some information from them (without being able to read Japanese, that is), I'd really appreciate a link. --Sopoforic 06:22, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I did not change the cost of the golf club, only eliminated the top end price, so if you know of the correct price please put it in. Also, unless you can prove that Jesus played park golf and that old people drive their cars onto the range then those "facts" will continue to be left off. I would also highly recommmend creating an account or username, as well as signing your comments, as they are more likely to be taken seriously. Glad to see that this page is finally looking respectable thanks to the cleanup force though! Banpei 03:48, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

You did remove the trailing zero accidentally when you removed the upper limit on prices. Having looked at the store link provided by Miyazaki203, I put the upper limit as 150,000 yen and restored the lower limit to 9,000 yen. I need to check on the guidelines for sourcing things. Do we source prices to stores? Are we supposed to list prices at all? Inquiring minds want to know. I'll respond with my opinion on this once I've read the guidelines. --Sopoforic 05:04, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah so I did. My mistake. Anyways, I've seen prices on other pages before, but never cited them to specific stores, so I think what is there now is okay. And about the "horder", I couldn't find any references to it either. Banpei 06:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, please don't edit your comments on talk pages, unless you're doing strikethrough or something. It makes it hard to find the changes unless I do a diff. Just respond again if you forget to say something. --Sopoforic 07:14, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. I am Miyazaki203. I never edit anonymously. I was almost sent to hospital by a rogue car that launched through the fence and on to the practice green. Sorry that in my shock I forgot to take a picture for future verification.

Here are pictures documenting the different ways to carry a park golf ball. In hand: http://www.phoenix-c.or.jp/spgc/photo/muromin/040.jpg Single clip on the belt: http://www.phoenix-c.or.jp/spgc/photo/muromin/006.jpg Multiple clip/pouch: http://www.phoenix-c.or.jp/spgc/photo/muromin/042.jpg Shoe clip (shock!): http://www.phoenix-c.or.jp/spgc/photo/muromin/005.jpg

Park golf was invented in response to golfers who took themselves and the game too seriously. The originators of PG wanted the game to be fun again. In this light, the prior etiquette section was accurate. You can read about it here (if you Japanese is up to snuff): http://www.ipga.jp/03/03-02.html

Incidently, being an unconventional Japanese sport, PG has many aspects that you may find incredulous. Did you know that there are rules governing what to do if your ball is carried off the course by a fox? Check out the easy-to-understand pictures at http://www.ipga.jp/03/03-01.html#キツネ

That site that you mentioned above is utter crap. I find it hard to believe that some rant on a blog is verification in any meaningful sense of the word. Miyazaki203 15:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course it's not sufficient verification. I was only pointing out that since there was a great lack of english sites with any information (that being the only one I could find), I was having difficulty actually verifying the facts. Thank you for providing the links. They're very enlightening. --Sopoforic 04:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is the wheelchair accessable ramp that was mentioned. http://www.park-golf.net/catalog/staringblock2.html The claim was that it cost 180,000 yen and that it would cost $100,000 USD to outfit an average course (54 holes) with them. There was mention of a portable ramp IN DEVELOPMENT. Please read more carefully. Other than the section saying that Jesus played PG (an obvious attempt at humour) the info was good. In your zealousness, you guys have decimated the best English source of information on park golf. Miyazaki203 15:41, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I do apologize for removing good information, but the whole article seemed at least a little strange, and it did contain (as you noted) some attempt at humour. It's not uncommon for people to add large amounts of material to articles in an attempt to be funny, and I couldn't easily tell what was intended to be humorous and what was fact. As for the info being otherwise good, there were several things that seemed unlikely: particularly, the listing of shots was strewn with words that were certainly English, such as 'the Steve,' and there was a section describing the greatest park golf player as a 120cm tall person called 'The Gimp.' While it is, I suppose, possible that these were actual facts, they seemed very likely to be someone's attempt at a joke. If you can substantiate the claims (a list of the shots would work well) then of course we'll gladly put them back in. But in the case that some information might have been false, it was better to remove too much than too little. --Sopoforic 04:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Ball carriers. Thank you for providing a picture of a shoe mounted ball carrier. I'm still surprised but I've added back a section on ball carriers (covering waiste moutned and shoe mount versions). RJFJR 22:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The removal of the information about the scorecard protector was unfortunate. The owners of the cards are nototious for using the card to cheat. Why was this deleted? Anyone who has played on the circuit will know this.

The point made about the blog is absolutely right. The anti-Park Golf lobby will go to all lengths to rubbish the game.

I am glad Miyazaki 203 was able to post pictures of the accessories, and hopefully we can stop having non-parkers doing wholesale edits without any knowledge.

It is harder to get citations for the etiquette, since by its very nature etiquette is unwritten and understood. Hence I will attempt to write a truthful summary of universal etiquette. It would be helpful if non-parkers could avoid deleting this with such silly comments as "it is bad sportsmanship". Please try to understand that Japan is a very different country. The game is most played in rural areas by older people. You are going to find the etiquette very strange. I did. But it is hard to see how people here who dispute information can be taken seriously, when they freely admit to speaking no Japanese and having never played Park Golf.

On the earlier question. I am the person who made earlier unsigned contributions - lazyness and misunderstanding explain this. I am not Miyazaki 203, and am insulted at this insuation. I know Miyazaki 203, though would consider him more an associate than a friend. Let us just say that his Japanese is better than his Park Golf.

Certainly Japan is a different place from anywhere else, and we all attempt to avoid cultural bias in articles. But the fact is that wikipedia has a policy of only including verifiable information, and those of us who were removing text from the article were just trying to remove the unverified things that seemed (in our judgment) most likely to be false. We all want this article to be both complete and correct, and are doing our best to improve it, even if we are limited in that we don't all speak Japanese or know personally about park golf. But we are making progress in verifying information from the article, and given time we can return all of the correct information to the article--with sources cited. Once there are proper citations, that information won't be removed again by someone who is not knowledgable about park golf, since they'll be able to verify it. Thanks for responding and helping us to sort out the good information.

As a final note, when you sign your comments, you should use four tildes (~) since that will automatically provide the date and time as well as a link to your user page, which will help us all to know when you wrote your comments so that we know what order to read the conversation in. --Sopoforic 04:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The article is looking much better now. RJFJR 02:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Eh I think not actually. Whoever wrote the section about a golf club looking like a "wedge" can join the long list of people here who don't have a clue about Park Golf. I am removing it because it is wrong. If you are unhappy with this, find a reliable citation - and you won't because it is rubbish. Just thought I would clear that up. Quality control 09:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

What has happened to this once valuable source of reliable information concerning Park Golf? Please forgive my naivety, but I was under the impression that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia of accurate information. Since the Park Golf page was hijacked by the "Cleanup Taskforce", correct information has been replaced with utter nonsense. I almost wept when I read that a Park Golf stick looks like a golf wedge. How could anyone have the ineptitude to write this? One only has to look at the photos in the Stance section to realise that this comparison is completely inaccurate . Likewise, whoever wrote that balls landing in the rough are replaced to an equidistant area on the fairway from the hole, and the player takes 2 strokes for this mistake, has clearly never read the rules of Park Golf, or I venture to say, has never even played the game. I refuse to believe that any reputable Parker could make such an error as to confuse hitting Out of Bounds with hitting into the rough. Do you realise how high one's score would be if you had to add 2 extra shots every time for hitting the rough?

Needless to say, I am very upset with the actions of the unfortunately named "Cleanup Taskforce". This group has undermined the hard work of dedicated Parkers in Japan, who are trying their utmost to compile accurate information (in keeping with the spirit of the game), in order to raise awareness and continue its development as an emerging world sport. I strongly recommend that the members of the "Cleanup Taskforce" should carefully try and remove their heads from a certain orifice of their body, and persevere at editing pages, in which, they actually have the relevant background knowledge. I suggest the Wikipedia page on masturbation would be a good place to start.

Justin Day

Dear Captain Ironspine,

I must say, I am disappointed with some of the comments that you have written in the discussion above. Not only do you reside in Japan and enjoy playing the wonderful game of Park Golf, but you claim to captain your ship with incredible care and leave nothing unattended. You will, therefore, be able to imagine my extreme surprise when I read your statements.

Yes, all of the English speaking Parkers on the circuit struggle to withhold their laughter when they see such accessories as a "ball horder" in the clubhouse or retail store. However, the fact remains that the manufacturer of the product has chosen to name it a "ball horder". Being that this is an encyclopedia, I believe the original author of the Accessories section wanted to report the accessory in the most accurate manner possible. Surely, it is not for the lay person to try and interpret how a product should be named according to the convention of their first language? I am also upset that you appear to have drawn the conclusion, that just because shoe mounted "ball horders" are unpopular in Akita, then they must not be popular in other parts of Japan. I think I do not need to expand further on foolish generalisations of this nature. To compound this problem, I was considerably shocked to learn, that you consider a discount store as a reliable source for your information.

I would also be extremely grateful if you would reconsider your opinion on the etiquette of Park Golf. You wrote that you have never heard of players, "putting each other off" or goading each other as if it is part of the sport itself. I recommend that if you have never heard of this particular aspect of the game, then you should take the time to visit a popular course on a busy day, and observe Parkers in action. I am certain that you would be very surprised at what you see. It is also important to note, that nowhere in the original article was goading mentioned. Let me apologise if English is your second or third language, but to goad someone involves provocation. It is not an acceptable term to use for describing Park Golf etiquette.

I would also like to warn you about your premature incredulousness, regarding some of the more obscure rules of Park Golf. I can only assume that during your research, you failed to notice, or misread, the rule covering the unfortunate event of a fox interfering with your ball. Please read the International Park Golf Association's (IPGA) web site carefully. In addition, it may be useful for you to contact the IPGA and have them mail you a copy of the rules, as you seem to be struggling to find one.

Good luck with your ship in Akita,

Justin Justinday 07:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I am completely amazed at this whole page. Look, I love park golf, and I like wikipedia. Wikipedia has one awesome mission statement, and a great project going on. Seven months ago, I decided to write an article about park golf, to help some people learn about what this awesome sport is. The article got vandalized a number of times, and people are trying to put something even better in its place.

Great However, I would be dismayed to have the sport misinterpreted or inacurately conveyed. Its just too fun to be having any of that. I play park golf generally once a week, and participate in every tournament in my prefecture, I like park golf. I play in other prefectures in tohoku. I commented that it is holder, not horder, not out of spite or ignorance, but because I see packages in sports stores clearly marked in romaji "hoLder". It is true that I assumed whatever equipment unsigned-jin and miyazaki203 are using is lower end because of their absolution that it is horder. Sorry, sometimes english gets misspelled in japan. Infact, it happens a lot. I apologize if people keep insisting it is horder, but since there are product available as both horder and holder, I determined to erase horder as it is inaccurate because it is not true for the whole of japan. This is the same reason that I disagree with the shoe clip being integral to the game. It does not hold true for all of japan. If you have problems with the article, or with whats written, re-write it yourself. Why write insults to strangers on wikipedia? Meanwhile, enjoy your day. Argue if you like that, edit if you like that. If I'm going to be nothing but insulted by strangers who seem like joes living in japan on temp status, I'd rather play golf than argue about it. Captain Ironspine 13:29, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear Captain Ironspine,

I apologize for the time it has taken for me to respond.

I chose, and still choose to not edit the Park Golf Wikipedia page, because it is clear that Miyazaki203 and the person who prefers to remain unnamed have a far greater knowledge of Park Golf and the Japanese language than I could ever hope to obtain. I happily leave the editing in their more than capable hands. What greatly annoyed me was your inept attempt at discrediting these people, and the hinderance that was caused whilst they were trying their utmost to improve the Park Golf page. I was angered by your haphazard and illogical comments to such a degree, that I found it necessary to help in any possible way. To this effect, I gave my support by questioning and casting doubt upon your arguments. (Incidentally, I would be grateful if you could make note that this is not an insult. Although, with hindsight perhaps it should have been)

Ordinarily, I would be more than willing to continue this discussion, but with the last sentence of your post on the 13/12/2006, you have managed to damage your own reputation more than I thought was possible. To make such lofty statements in your first paragraph, only to end with the most prejudiced and bigoted of comments, is so unbelievable that it is beyond parody.

Justin Justinday 04:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Japanese?

If people who play park golf are called parkers in English, what are they called in Japanese? RJFJR 14:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

They may be referred to as プレーヤー (purēyā), 選手 (senshu) or 愛好者 (aikousha). The first two terms can be fairly translated as player, the third as enthusiast. Miyazaki203 05:53, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Holders/horders/hoarders

Comment: horder is a homphone for hoarder. However, horder is not a word (at least according to wiktionary). Horde is a noun meaning a large group. To hoard is a verb meaning to collect obsessively. A hoarder is someone who hoards, who collects obsessively. Horder doesn't make sense since horde is already a noun. It is possible that "ball horder" is a typo for "ball holder" or more remotely, "ball hoarder". Proving it is a typo may be more challenging. RJFJR 17:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The word 'horder' had now been added to the wiktionary on the list of protologisms. Miyazaki203 06:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe Parkers are referred to as パルカ in Japanese. I imagine that it would be impossible to provide a reference for this informal name. Perhaps, it is best to use Park Golf Player(s). I am sure this would not offend Parkers.

Congratulations for discovering that horder is not an English word. Given the severity of other mistakes in the Park Golf article, the Ball Carrier section, which, simply describes different types of ball carriers is satisfactory.

Will you please stop getting sidetracked by trivial matters and correct the fundamental errors.

Justin Justinday 05:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The holder vs. horder debate is one that exceeds this forum. It may have been a mistake, or an intentional mispelling designed for a target market, or an attempt at creating a new word. Even experts such as engrish.com are hesitent to make judgements on the 'correctness' of such dialects. It should be noted that language is always changing and that words that started as mistakes enter the lexicon (see: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3854612a11,00.html). Since park golf is still primarily a Japanese sport I believe it is still important to defer to the Japanese parkers and companies that are building the game. Miyazaki203 06:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

POV, Balls

I am removing the second paragraph of the Balls section as it sounds like an advertisement:

The most popular balls are from the Magnum series, by SPG. Many parkers claim that it is easier to putt with the lighter Magnum-F ball, but have also observed a corresponding fall off in their performance at Par 5. It is claimed that the extra weight of the Magnum-G is crucial for the longer Par-5's. Many parkers are eagerly anticipating the release of the Magnum-I at the start of the 2007 season. (The manufacturer has avoided the use of "H" due to the association of the letter with hentai animated pornography).

Maybe the paragraph would be better if neither brand nor product names were mentioned. However, as written it reads as if from a catalog. Moonburn 09:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I restored this constructive comment from John B, which was deleted without reason by Moonburn. Generally I believe a reason would need to be given otherwise it would be seen for the vandalism it is.

I am an Australian former resident of Japan, and was a keen parker for four years. My friends, both Japanese and gaijin, referred to it as a horder, and it was usually spelt like that wherever I played. Captain Ironspine appears to be without a clue on most aspects of Park Golf. - - John B.

It is a happy day. The unwanted clean-up taskforce has packed up and left, like the unwanted army of occupation it was. Parkers have the chance once again to build a wikipedia page that truly reflect the wishes of freedom loving parkers. The tyranny is over. I can now understand how East Germans must have felt when they knocked down the Great Wall of China innit?! Rejoice! Rejoice! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.166.245.4 (talk)

Come now, it wasn't so terrible. I think that you'll agree that the article has been improved. Compare it with the old version, which had no references as well as sections like "Famous People who don't play Park Golf." The new version is unambiguously better. --Sopoforic 07:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

And I think you'll agree that the 'Clean-up Task Force' has proven itself to be a solely negative party. You cannot create, only destroy. You came here riding your own self-righteousness but have added no meaningful content. Whether the page is better now or not, for you to take any credit is laughable. I expect you to get repetitive stress diorder in your finger from hitting 'delete' since that is the only button you used here. I am over-joyed this era of negativity is over and the creative force of positive thinking will once again return to wikipedia site. Miyazaki203 02:46, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm sorry that you feel that way. As for myself, I only deleted the sections I felt were clearly nonsense (like the 'famous people who don't play park golf' that I mentioned). And, incidentally, I am not a part of the cleanup taskforce. I just happened by at the same time. I did my best to find information to add, but since I can only read English, I wasn't very successful. I do apologize if you felt that we weren't helpful, but we were all only trying to help in whatever ways we could. I hope you'll enjoy your time here more in the future. --Sopoforic 04:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the banner for Golf Wikiproject. It was an unwanted symbol of tyranny. Park Golf should not be group with the pseudo-sport of non-Park Golf. The sport of Park Golf shares only a passing resemblence to non-Park Golf. It is rather like saying Hitler was a socialist because his party was called the Nationalist Socialists. The "Nationalist" part makes a huge difference, just as the "Park" part makes a big difference. It would be unfair to Hitler and the Nazis to label them socialist, just as it is unfair of non-Parkers to label Parkers as "Golfers", or indeed to link the sport of Park Golf with the game of non-Park Golf. In fact in many ways, Parkers are fighting the same battle as the Nazis have fought. Some people might even say we are the new Nazis. OK hope that has cleared things up a little bit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.166.245.4 (talk) 00:45, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Why do you look at WikiProject Golf as tyranny? We're just editors of the encyclopedia like you are. We did nothing wrong to this page to warrant the removal of the template without our knowledge. Since the page is in the category of golf, the template goes back up. I hope you will realise that we mean no harm by putting that template there, we hope to work with this group of people to improve the page in everyones best interests, and not damage it. Grover 07:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The Template has been removed and freedom restored. I would be interested in the opinions of other Parkers on this question. Why should Park Golf be under the aegis of a greater Golf Wikiproject. The games are completely separate. How would non-Park Golfers like it if Parkers were to demand that they fall under a Wikiproject of ours? This won't happen because we have no desire to interfere in non-Park Golf, and thus demand to be left alone to bulid a page that reflects knowledge of people who play the game and actually know something about it.

The Clean-up Task Force claimed they meant no harm as well. Then proceeded to butcher the page, removing swathes of accurate and essential information. If the WikiProject:Golf editors have something to add to this page, they can argue their case here. However, I have a feeling that no one the project has played Park Golf or even has the slightest idea about the game beyond what they have read on this page. What do you bring to the table? How will you "work with group of people to improve the page"? Until WikiProject:Golf offers something more than a banner, we must stay independent from the Wikiproject. Miyazaki203 00:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't want to seem rude, but this isn't your article. If WikiProject Cellular Biology suddenly decided that they wanted to pay attention to this article and put their banner on it, they'd be within their rights to do so (although it'd be weird). The banner being on the page makes it easier to track changes: some projects (many? most? no idea) have bots that notify them if pages with their template on them are nominated for deletion, or marked for cleanup, or such. The golf project banner being on the page doesn't mean that they own the article, or than any changes have to be verified with them first, it just means that some editors who participate in that project are interested in the article.

And, incidentally, I'm quite sure that the cleanup taskforce (along with any other semi-organized group that comes here) means no harm--if the end result is that harm is done, it's regrettable, but it doesn't mean that it was intentional: never assume malice when incompetence will suffice. --Sopoforic 00:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I never claimed it was intentional or malicious, just that damage was done. If WikiProject Cellular Biology put their banner on this page it would be appropriate to remove it. My point is this: Editors should build and edit topics that they are knowledgeable about. Miyazaki203 01:39, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, your wording ("...claimed they meant no harm...") seemed to suggest otherwise, but I suppose it was just a misunderstanding. It's true that it was a bit of a reach to name project cellular biology, but my point was just that the banners are there to make it easier for members of the wikiproject, and have no real effect on the article at all. And you're totally right: ideally, everyone will edit things they are both knowledgeable about and interested in, but in practice it usually works more like everyone will edit things they have heard of and can be bothered to look into. It's not perfect, but it's worked reasonably well in general. There are a lot of things people can do even with no knowledge: copyediting, for example, is a very important task that can be done with little to no prior knowledge of the subject (although for very technical topics this is less true). At any rate, removing a project banner won't prevent people from editing; it just makes it less convenient for those editors who are interested in the topic to keep track of it. And that, I think, is a bad thing, from any perspective. --Sopoforic 02:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Sopoforic is right. You don't own this page, and I have every right to put the template at the top of the page. It's doing no harm there so why move it? It's just easier for editors to take care of the article. And if any of you would like to join and get further people to collaborate with, then go right ahead. Grover 05:59, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Sopophric is wrong and the template has been removed. We have no desire to join your stupid project. Leave our sport in peace.

Unknown Parker

Im sorry, Unknown Parker, but you seem to not understand what that template means, and I explained it for everyone in my last comment. And no it isn't a stupid project, and the template has every right to be on this page, because it is related to golf, and the template is for organisational purposes only. How about you leave US in peace and keep the template. Grover 00:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Rover, but what template? There is none. I understand your argument. I just don't agree with it. Just because our sport includes the word "golf", does not mean our sport is related to non-Park Golf. I think the Parkers here have made their feelings clear. The template is not welcome. You can take your project and stick it up your wiki.

Unknown Parker

This is a stupid argument. It is not your page. Grover 23:13, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

And nor is it your's. Why don't you stay on the non-Park golf page? I think that game suits you more. You'll only get confused here.

Unknown Parker

Grover,

Say no to the banner!

It seems that you are confused and do not have a sufficient understanding of Park Golf. The argument has nothing at all to do with who owns the page, or making it easier to edit. Rather, it is the fact that Park Golf is being overtly related to golf.

The opening paragraph of the Park Golf page clearly states that it is a form of, and has a resemblance to golf. This is perfectly acceptable, but it is extremely important to remember that there are fundamental differences, and in many ways Park Golf and golf remain incomparable. To put a template/banner on the page for organizational purposes because it is related to golf, stretches the resemblance too far. It implies a level of similarity between the two sports, which, is unacceptable and unnecessary. This is why members of the Park Golf community have become upset and wish the banner to be permanently removed.

Justin Justinday 14:44, 17 February 2007 (UTC)