Talk:Parliament of Aruba

Chairman ?

There is a list of "Chairmen of the Estates of Aruba" but no mention as to what the role of this chairman is. Is it the president of the legislature? This should be clarified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gentleman wiki (talk • contribs) 09:05, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Undiscussed move

Hello,

Article was moved without discussion from Estates of Aruba to Parliament of Aruba with edit comment "Universally referred to as the 'parliament' in English, and even in the seal of the body."

Both elements of the rationale are wrong. A quick Ggl search returns 317 results for "Estates of Aruba" vs. 319 results for "Parliament of Aruba" (on last page, excluding Wikipedia results), the body is therefore far from being "universally referred to as the 'parliament'". Also, the word Parlamento on the seal of the body is in Papiamento language, not English. (The seal is visible on the official webpage.) In Dutch, the other official language, the words Staten van Aruba are used, which are cognate with Estates.

I am therefore reverting the move per WP:BRD. If translation Parliament of Aruba is suggested again, I suggest doing it though a RM. Place Clichy (talk) 13:48, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

BRD doesn't apply, except to my revert just now. 'Parliament of Aruba' has been stable since November, and per WP:TITLECHANGES, the onus is on you to provide evidence that 'Estates of Aruba' is the most appropriate title in line with Wikipedia policies. In fact, the evidence you have provided suggests that 'Parliament of Aruba' is more common, and thus per WP:UCN, that should be the title. Wikipedia does not use official titles, but the common name in reliable sources. 'Correctness' is not included in the article titles criteria. In any case, a more appropriate search than the one you used above would be a Google News search, which is more likely to catch reliable sources. Such a search produces 7 hits for Parliament of Aruba, and 9 for Aruban parliament. 'Estates of Aruba produces only 1 hit, and 'Aruban estates' zero. I think the evidence is pretty clear here. Never mind that we must also account for WP:RECOGNISABILITY, which makes 'Parliament' the clear winner regardless! RGloucester — ☎ 14:44, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

@RGloucester:@Place Clichy: I agree with Place Clichy. Aruba has the Dutch system where the legislature is called "Staten" which is sometimes translated to States and sometimes to Estates. The legislature in the Netherlands is Staten Generaal (States General of the Netherlands) which comprises of two chambers: Senaat (Senate) and Parlement (Parliament). Aruba only has one chamber. I know that Suriname - before independence - used to have an Estates of Suriname which consisted of just a Parliament. I assume that it is the same for Aruba.

Constitution of Aruba Article 3 link via wikisource is called "Staten" and does not use the term Parliament to describe the legislature. KittenKlub (talk) 15:04, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for opening an RM. Unfortunately, you don't see to understand how the Wikipedia article titles policy works. We don't use official names on Wikipedia, and the word used the Dutch version of the constitution of Aruba has no bearing on what we call the relevant body on Wikipedia. In any case, see my argument below. RGloucester — ☎ 16:02, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

That Dutch version of the constitution happens to be the original constitution. And it does have bearing because "Staten van Aruba" translates to "Estates of Aruba". There is also consistency. Estates of Netherlands Antilles. States General of the Netherlands. Estates of Suriname etc. KittenKlub (talk) 16:06, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 30 April 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Per WP:COMMONNAME. The fact that the article was moved withouth discussion is not enough reason to revert to the previous title. (non-admin closure) Vpab15 (talk) 17:07, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

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Parliament of Aruba → Estates of Aruba – Official name of the legislature according to the Constitution of Aruba [1] KittenKlub (talk) 15:27, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose – 'Parliament of Aruba' is the WP:COMMONNAME, and that should be the title. Wikipedia does not use official titles, but the common name in reliable sources. A Google News search, which is a good judge of reliable source usage, brings up 7 hits for Parliament of Aruba, and 9 for Aruban parliament. 'Estates of Aruba' produces only 1 hit, and 'Aruban estates' zero. I think the evidence is pretty clear here that 'Estates of Aruba' is not the common name. Furthermore, another two of our article title criteria are WP:NATURALNESS and WP:RECOGNISABILITY. 'Parliament' is many times more recognisable and natural to an English-speaking reader than 'Estates', and if most RS seem to use 'Parliament', there is no reason why we should choose the less recognisable title. RGloucester — ☎ 15:57, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Comment The more common language is not English, but Dutch and "staten+van+aruba"+-wikipedia Staten van Aruba is 73,000 hits vs. "parlement+van+aruba" Parlement van Aruba is 3,900. See also the count above which was really close.KittenKlub (talk) 16:01, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

What the body is called in Dutch has no bearing on what we call it on the English Wikipedia. See WP:EN. RGloucester — ☎ 16:03, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support what is essentially reverting an undiscussed move, as mentionned above. Estates/States is a natural and recognisable in English, even in the modern era, even outside of Dutch-culture areas, as shown e.g. on pages The Estates and Estates-General. Search engine results for parliament of Aruba or Aruban parliament do not show that this is a correct or official name but can also be merely a description: one could write for instance that , as one would write that the Oireachtas is the parliament of Ireland, the Knesset is the parliament of Israel, the Tynwald is the parliament of the Isle of Man etc. (talk about recognisable there). If both terms are used in casual language (probably together with legislature of Aruba among others) then the more correct term, which is also the longstanding title of the page, should be preferred. Place Clichy (talk) 20:01, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

We do not use the 'correct' or 'official' name, we use the common name in WP:RS. In the cases you mention, RS predominantly use Oireachtas, Knesset, &c., but as presented above, this not the case with the Parliament of Aruba. The majority of RS use 'parliament', and so too should we in accordance with the Wikipedia article titles policy. RGloucester — ☎ 22:57, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

I do not find convincing at all your argument that RS would majority use Parliament of Aruba. In fact, there does not see to be any obvious majority use. Place Clichy (talk) 10:50, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

• Comment Estates of Curaçao and Estates of Sint Maarten were also moved without discussion together with the Aruban article. If this page is moved back, the other moves should probably be reverted too. Place Clichy (talk) 20:04, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Really? Maybe take a look at at the emblem of the Parliament of Sint Maarten. Look to the left. RGloucester — ☎ 22:57, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose: This is a tough one because on one hand, the pageviews suggest that Estates is more searched. But on the other hand, RGloucester is correct that Parliament appears to be the more commonly used term in the very few articles that exist in English about Aruba politics. For example, this New York Times article about the Prime Minister uses Parliament twice and doesn't use Estates at all.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 21:30, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support for the reasons discussed by User:Place Clichy. Namely, User:RGloucester failed to formally propose and discuss the move first. On the actual merits, I am neutral at this point because the evidence raised thus far points both ways. But let's revert this mess to the longstanding status quo first. --Coolcaesar (talk) 22:31, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

The status quo? I made a bold move in November 2020, and no one objected to it. There is no obligation to 'formally propose' anything. The status quo is thus 'Parliament of Aruba', which has been stable. The onus is on those who think 'Estates of Aruba' is a better title in line with Wikipedia policies to demonstrate that that is the case. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, where we would revert to an inferior title merely because of some perceived procedural error. There is at yet no evidence presented that 'Estates of Aruba' is the common name in reliable sources, and all such evidence points in the exact opposite direction. RGloucester — ☎ 22:57, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you, but I just want to warn you that it seems like you're kinda leaning into WP:BLUDGEON territory rn. There's no need to respond to everyone who is opposing. Remember that the person who closes the RM has to determine consensus and they'll know that to determine WP:CONSENSUS, the quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 04:49, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.