Talk:Pattern (sewing)

misc[edit]

This needs more work - I want a full-blown section on the history of sewing patterns (ties into the artcle on clothing sizes that I want to write).

Here's info on Butterick: [[1]]. and I have an 1882 Delineator I can scan and Butterick sewings books from the 20s and 40s for reference. PKM 18:06, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sewing terminology?[edit]

Do we want/need a separate article on sewing terminology, to include things like dart, bias, grainline, princess seam, Hong Kong finish, french seam, lining, interlining, etc.? Or does that belong here, or in the "sewing" article? PKM 21:19, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm new here and I could contribute but I don't want to step on anyone's toes. While my focus is primarily industrial pattern making, I'm also an enthusiast of vintage patterns and archaic drafting systems. I'm building a glossary on my fashion-incubator site. Also, I think there'd have to be a clear delineation between home sewing and industrial sewing. Some of the terms used in homesewing are either not used in manufacturing or the terms are used "incorrectly" (perhaps better described as "inappropriately"?). I am not saying "we" are right and you are wrong because language usage tends to dilute according to common usage. What would you like to see here?

Pattern Maker, is that your post? Great additions on commercial pattern making.

You won't step on anyone's toes by posting quality information about your area of specialization, though be prepared for people to tweak the copyrighted materials you posted from your own work.

My take is that Wikipedia should explain when "common" usage differs from technical or specialist usage, and if something is used inaccurately no one will be offended if you correct the entry.

Take a look at Clothing terminology if you have a chance - it could use some additional input from the manufacturing angle, which I do not know except by reading.

Also, you might mention on the talk/discussion page when you are adding material from your own copyright works, lest some well-meaning person come along and tag them as a copyright violation.

Welcome to Wikipedia! - PKM 20:05, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Could someone provide an example of the 3D modelling system where you can see the clothes on the body? I know of several sources of patternmaking software which would be good to link to, if that is allowed.--Urgeok (talk) 02:43, 27 October 2009 (UTC) I've requested an article on industrial sewing methods too. --Urgeok (talk) 02:58, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You state that DuBarry patterns were made up until 1940 for FW Woolworths Exclusively. I have DuBarry pattern no. 5581 which is copywright 1943, so they were clearly being published after 1940. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.198.230.215 (talk) 13:19, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Variations on custom pattern making[edit]

I added the second two paragraphs on custom pattern making to make the article more thorough. I used to study clothing construction and have direct experience with each of the three techniques mentioned, although I have no books or links to reference description of these three methods.

Fashnable1 23:26, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Distinction between patterns in general and store-bought patterns[edit]

I think this article seems a little distorted by the large amount of detail on commercial pattern companies, relative to patterns and pattern making in general. While the general information about patterns, the meat of what should be the article, definitely needs expanding in any case, I'm inclined to address this imbalance in the short term by removing the list of commercial pattern retailers to another page, something like History of commercial sewing pattern retailing in the US, or something like that, more or less specific. Does anyone disagree or have any suggestions? What might that page be called? I've never used such patterns myself, so I'm a little surprised to see so much on them here without much at all about commercial patternmaking or the drafting of bespoke patterns Bike756 (talk) 18:47, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved this section to the bottom because new sections go at the bottom instead of the top.

I agree that this article's section on the history of commercial sewing patterns is a bit long, and I support moving it out to something like History of sewing patterns or Sewing pattern history. There's no reason to make it US-centric since the major companies also supplied and supply patterns overseas. Also some current patterns, namely Burda and Marfy, are from outside North America. Ca2james (talk) 22:05, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

History of sewing patterns sounds good to me. I'll create that page and link to it from here, leaving a short summary of the section in it's place. Nate Wessel (talk) 16:43, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sooo....I did copy that section over to a new page, but the whole thing was almost immediately deleted for copryright violations. Nate Wessel (talk) 17:13, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Crap. There's a bot that checks new pages for copyvios and an admin deleted the new page. However, it looks like the other article copied from this one, so the page shouldn't have been deleted. I do think that the page should be created (even though there's already other articles) because it should in theory summarize the whole industry. I'm leaving a message on the deleting admin's Talk page and pinging you there. Ca2james (talk) 17:52, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Inaccurate changes[edit]

Schutz67, your changes do not appear to be accurate. Standard sewing patterns fit most people, but not well; that's why there is so much educational information published to teach sewers how to adjust patterns. Also, your changes here and to Muslin to change it to "nettle-cloth" are not sourced. Please find published sources that support your changes.

Making a muslin is common terminology in sewing.^[1]^[2]^[3] Schazjmd (talk) 20:46, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Adding: The Dictionary of Fashion History has "nettlecloth" in use in the 17th century, defined as "Linen made from nettle fibres in place of hemp".^[4] I'm not finding sources for its use in modern times in the context of "making a muslin". Schazjmd (talk) 20:59, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Case, Cassandra (2004). The pattern companion : sewing. New York: Sterling Pub. Co. p. 13. ISBN 1-4027-1272-3. OCLC 56334319. A muslin is a simple prototype of a garment with no facings or linings. The name is taken from the inexpensive fabric from which they are often made.
^ Hollahan, Lee (2010). How to use, adapt, and design sewing patterns. Hauppauge, NY: Barron's. p. 15. ISBN 978-0-7641-4425-7. OCLC 435423430.
^ Veblen, Sarah (2012). "Fundamentals of Fitting Muslins". The complete photo guide to perfect fitting. Minneapolis: Creative Pub. International. ISBN 978-1-58923-608-0. OCLC 701015201.
^ Cumming, V.; Cunnington, C.W.; Cunnington, P.E. (2010). The Dictionary of Fashion History. Bloomsbury Academic. p. 260. ISBN 978-1-84788-533-3. Retrieved 2022-01-19.

Making a muslin is common terminology in USA in sewing, yes, I haven't changed this, but it is not done with the fabric muslin, as you can easily see on the foto published, here Nessel was used. In the English wiki there is no info about nessel as a fabric. should be done. See https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nesseltuch My changes are professional changes Schutz67 (talk) 21:02, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You need to provide published sources for your changes. Wikipedia is not a reliable source. I have provided multiple sources above for muslin above; what are your sources? Schazjmd (talk) 21:05, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My source is not wikipedia. I have been working in this profession since 1984Schutz67 (talk) 21:38, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Schutz67, Wikipedia requires verifiable sources. Personal knowledge not a verifiable or reliable source; it is original research which is not permitted. Please provide citations to reliable sources for the content that you add. Schazjmd (talk) 21:44, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See: https://www.monicasantana.de/ein-traumkleid-entsteht/die-erste-anprobe-ihre-kleides/

"When you tried it on for the first time, we sewed a dress from a cotton fabric, the so-called nettle, based on your personal pattern. An essential point is that we can adapt and model the nettle fabric exactly to your body. Every fold, no matter how small, is pinned out with pins, marked directly on the fabric and later changed on your pattern.Schutz67 (talk) 21:50, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please learn to indent your comments properly on talk pages (see Help:Talk pages#Indentation). A dress designer's blog is not a reliable source. Please read WP:RS and learn about reliable sources on English Wikipedia. Schazjmd (talk) 21:54, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The fabric "Muslin gauze" is not Calico. For American English usage of "muslin", see Calico.Schutz67 (talk) 21:57, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Guido Hofenbitzer: Maßschnitte und Passform – Schnittkonstruktion für Damenmode: Band 2 Europa-Lehrmittel; 2. Edition (5. Oktober 2016) ISBN 978-3808562444, Page 26Schutz67 (talk) 22:08, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:NOENG, please provide a translation of the content on page 26 and state which of your many changes it supports. Schazjmd (talk) 22:12, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hofenbitzer page 26: Material and tools, nettleSchutz67 (talk) 22:14, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide a translation of the content that supports your edits. The word "nettle" does not. Schazjmd (talk) 22:16, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hofenbitzer says on page 26 in German "Material und Werkzeuge: Nessel" das ist übersetzt: " Material and tools, nettle"Schutz67 (talk) 22:18, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

PLEASE learn to indent properly. Your translation doesn't provide support for anything that you've added to the article. Please take some time and read the various links I've provided in my previous comments and learn how sourcing and citing is done on English Wikipedia. Schazjmd (talk) 22:20, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Müller & Sohn: Seit 1891 – Aus Tradition stark im Schnitt Schutz67 (talk) 22:27, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A link to a commercial company's website is not an independent source to cite for its pattern systems. Please read reliable sources. Schazjmd (talk) 22:36, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The various links you've provided in your previous comments refer to a term not to the fabric muslin. I mentioned this already before. Schutz67 (talk) 22:40, 19 January 2022 (UTC) Müller & Sohn is a world-renowned pattern system of very high quality. The oldest technical school for fashion and pattern making was founded in 1891. http://www.mms-schule.de Schutz67 (talk) 22:44, 19 January 2022 (UTC) Parsons School of Design https://courses.newschool.edu/courses/PSOF3300/9740 "Utilizing specific hand and machine sewing techniques, a full canvas construction will be used to build shape into the garment."Schutz67 (talk) 23:28, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A school's course description is not a reliable source. Canvas is frequently used as an internal layer in suit jacket construction and has nothing to do with the topic of this article. Schazjmd (talk) 23:36, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you read WP:RS, you don't seem to have understood it. Please read the Verifiability policy, perhaps that will make more sense to you. Schazjmd (talk) 23:43, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Of course I'm aware of that. I just don't have an English-language book. You can't sew a bodice out of muslin fabric that fits. The fabric is way too stretchy. This technically incorrect publication will tempt non-professionals to sew a bodice with an elastic material and they will fail. A bodice can only be sewn with an inelastic fabric. I hope many people will read this discussion page. Between canvas, nettle and muslin as a fabric, not as a term, there is a big difference in terms of use in tailoring. Muslin fabric may be used for skirts, clothes are also sewn from it, but never a bodice as a sample. Experts don't read wiki, they have learned it and practice it. Laypeople are being misled here.Schutz67 (talk) 09:17, 20 January 2022 (UTC) @PKM you wrote: "You won't step on anyone's toes by posting quality information about your area of specialization" pls help...Schutz67 (talk) 09:32, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello PKM, you wrote: "You won't step on anyone's toes by posting quality information about your area of specialization" pls help….Schutz67 (talk) 11:48, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Schutz67 The terminology in English is different from the terminology in German. The German "Baumwollnessel" or "nessel" for a mock-up garment is "toile" in British English and "muslin" in American English. The fabric used for these is called "muslin" in American English and "calico" in British English - it's a cheap, usually unbleached firm-woven cotton. This is different from both "muslin" the stretchy cotton fabric from India and "calico" the printed cotton fabric. "Nessel" is etymologically the same word as English "Nettle" (fabric made from bast fibers of nettle plants), but in English the term is only used for historical fabrics. I think it would be best to allow a native English speaker to sort out the terminology in this article. = PKM (talk) 23:49, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Case, Cassandra (2004). The pattern companion : sewing. New York: Sterling Pub. Co. p. 13. ISBN 1-4027-1272-3. OCLC 56334319. A muslin is a simple prototype of a garment with no facings or linings. The name is taken from the inexpensive fabric from which they are often made.

[2] Hollahan, Lee (2010). How to use, adapt, and design sewing patterns. Hauppauge, NY: Barron's. p. 15. ISBN 978-0-7641-4425-7. OCLC 435423430.

[3] Veblen, Sarah (2012). "Fundamentals of Fitting Muslins". The complete photo guide to perfect fitting. Minneapolis: Creative Pub. International. ISBN 978-1-58923-608-0. OCLC 701015201.

[4] Cumming, V.; Cunnington, C.W.; Cunnington, P.E. (2010). The Dictionary of Fashion History. Bloomsbury Academic. p. 260. ISBN 978-1-84788-533-3. Retrieved 2022-01-19.

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