Talk:Persecution of Shias by the Islamic State

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On 11 May 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved to Genocide of Shias by ISIL. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Unnamed section[edit]

Has the Talk page been dislocated in a move? I found this with no project tags, and added all project tags above. Quick search of previous move locations doesn't show a stranded Talk page, but may have missed it. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:40, 22 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in Persecution of Shias by ISIL[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Persecution of Shias by ISIL's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "amnestyethnic":

From Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant: "Ethnic cleansing on a historic scale: The Islamic State's systematic targeting of minorities in northern Iraq" (PDF). Amnesty International. 2 September 2014. Retrieved 19 October 2014.^{[dead link]}
From Human rights in ISIL-controlled territory: "DOCUMENT – IRAQ: ETHNIC CLEANSING ON HISTORIC SCALE: THE ISLAMIC STATE'S SYSTEMATIC TARGETING OF MINORITIES IN NORTHERN IRAQ". Amnesty International. September 2014. Retrieved 19 October 2014.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:04, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Uncontroversial moves?[edit]

05:03, 21 April 2016 Anthony Appleyard (talk | contribs) m . . (1,761 bytes) (0) . . (Anthony Appleyard moved page Talk:Genocide of Shias by ISIL to Talk:Shia genocide: Requested at WP:RM as uncontroversial (permalink)) (undo | thank)

(cur | prev) 06:01, 23 March 2016 Philg88 (talk | contribs) m . . (1,761 bytes) (0) . . (Philg88 moved page Talk:Persecution of Shias by ISIL to Talk:Genocide of Shias by ISIL: Requested at WP:RM as uncontroversial (permalink)) (undo | thank)

(cur | prev) 03:04, 30 January 2016 AnomieBOT (talk | contribs) . . (1,761 bytes) (+1,761) . . (→Orphaned references in Persecution of Shias by ISIL: new section)

@Anthony Appleyard: hi, I didn't spot the uncontroversial move request 21 April, hope you don't mind reverting. Shia genocide is ambiguous and could suggest to western readers that Shia's were the perpetrators not the victims. So would suggest that the requester submits this move to a full RM. Do you have a record of who requested it? In ictu oculi (talk) 07:30, 22 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@In ictu oculi: Edit to Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests by User:Article editor at 04:25, 21 April 2016 (oldid=716326586) Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:53, 22 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Bad source[edit]

There was this statement in the article:

"Despite being the religious majority in Iraq, Shia Muslims have been killed in large numbers by ISIL."

Which cites this CNN article by Joshua Berlinger:

Berlinger, Joshua. "Which groups are under threat by ISIS in Iraq? - CNN.com". CNN. Retrieved 2015-12-22.

But Berlinger's evidence that ISIL has killed "large numbers" of Shias is based solely on a link to one article by Mohammed Tawfeeq about how ISIL has killed 1,700 Shia recruits for the Iraqi Air Force and the fact that ISIL is fighting the Assad regime (a Shiite regime). Berlinger does not cite any other source to back up his claim.

The "killed in large numbers" part refers to the ISIL's targeting of 1,700 Shia recruits for the Iraqi Air Force. So I replaced the original source by Berlinger with the one by Tawfeeq.

Another problematic statement in the Wikipedia article:

"ISIL, attempting to create a Sunni Muslim caliphate, has labelled all Shia Muslims infidels. As a result, they have specifically targeted Shia communities."

The statement also cited Berlinger, but Berlinger didn't back up his claim about targeting "Shia communities" other than mentioning that it had targeted Shia recruits for the Iraqi Air Force and the Assad regime (which are composed of combatants rather than civilians).

UltimateLiberty (talk) 22:16, 17 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Death toll[edit]

Genocides usually have a death toll, at the least an estimated range. Where is the death toll for this article? Is there any sources that state it? Beejsterb (talk) 04:43, 27 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Since when is John Kerry a genocide scholar?--Monochrome_Monitor 07:22, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Article move[edit]

I've undone this 2016 move: [1]. It was asserted to have been uncontroversial; however, a statement from the US administration is insufficient to label the event "genocide". Please see: Persecution_of_Shias_by_ISIL#Genocide_claims. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:50, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@K.e.coffman: Thank you for making the move. It was long overdue. If anyone wishes to challenge this move, do not try to simply revert it: please start a new discussion. Consensus had (and still has) it that this did not fit the definition of 'genocide' and was WP:RECENTISM touted by some of the media for a short period of time. Short term sensationalism does not belong in an encyclopaedic resource. The subject of genocide is treated with extreme gravitas on Wikipedia, as it should be. Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:28, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Awis al-Qarni mosque1, Ar-Raqqa.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:09, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 11 May 2021[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 07:20, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Persecution of Shias by ISIL → Genocide of Shias by ISIL – The U.N and USA recognize this as a genocide, https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/daesh-committed-genocide-against-yazidis-in-iraq-un-probe-says/news, https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35831711.amp Ridax2020 (talk) 13:37, 11 May 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 14:26, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Ridax2020 (talk) 13:37, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia does not necessarily follow official declarations by US and UN. "Genocide" is a loaded term and can only be used if a majority of reliable sources on the topic are using it, per WP:POVTITLE. Until there is evidence of that, I will have to oppose. (t · c) buidhe 01:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC) Also ping Iryna Harpy and K.e.coffman who commented on the title above (t · c) buidhe 02:12, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Are you using WP:POVTITLE in an article about... ISIL?? If so, we can go ahead and remove all articles that talk about ISIL war crimes then. It’s commonly spread in media that ISIL committed a genocide against Shi’as in all kinds of sources from all nations whether it’s Iran or USA, and I presented enough sources to argue why this article should change to that name. Uyghur genocide was changed to that name because the US and a couple other nations recognized the persecution in east turkestan as genocide, so why not this? Ridax2020 (talk) 10:24, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
POVTITLE, as well as WP:NPOV in general, applies to all articles regardless of how unpopular their subjects are. (t · c) buidhe 10:48, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
All sources call it a genocide, you can make a google search for “Genocide of shias isis” and see them yourself. Persecution is just basic systematic oppression of people, while genocide is the mass massacre of people for their ethnicity/religion. Using your logic Liberation of Khorramshahr needs to be renamed to the Second Battle of Khorramshahr Ridax2020 (talk) 15:30, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
One point I forgot to bring out is that it’s widely known & accepted that ISIL genocided christians, yazidis and shias just like how hitler gassed jews. Using your logic that means we should rename the article for the holocaust to “Persecution of Jews by Nazi Germany” Ridax2020 (talk) 15:31, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's not true that these are as widely accepted as you suggest. Their treatment of Yazidis is generally considered to be genocide, but fewer reliable sources use that word to refer to ISIS persecution of Christians and Shias. The Christians article was moved to "Persecution" at a 2018 requested move.
Talk:Liberation_of_Khorramshahr#Requested_move_16_May_2021 now opened. I agree it's a problematic title. (t · c) buidhe 16:34, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What’s your point though? The UN and US calls this a genocide and so do other sources. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323888578_ISIS_Crimes_Against_the_Shia_The_Islamic_State's_Genocide_Against_Shia_Muslims https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/05/isis-iraq-shia-muslims-jihadis-atrocities https://apnews.com/article/islamic-state-group-united-nations-middle-east-genocides-business-49e044197ba3fa94887cbd56e5d0339f Ridax2020 (talk) 08:44, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.