Talk:Philadelphia Main Line

Removal/Inclusion of towns

Dear Editors/Commentators: Having grown up on the Main Line, (and being nearly 60 years old) I noticed that this Wikipedia entry on the Philadelphia Main Line inaccurately excluded Bala and Cynwyd from the listing of communities that are part of this socio-cultural (as opposed to legal) entity. (Of course, Bala and Cynwyd are part of Lower Merion Township, as well.) I, myself, am in possession of an "Atlas of the Main Line," published in 1920 by A.H. Mueller, that includes both communities in its detailed street maps, with the rubric "Main Line" prominently displayed on each page. In my edits to the article, I also included hyperlinks to earlier atlases, available via The Lower Merion Historical Society's website. (An online version of the 1920 atlas I own also appears on this website. For example, an atlas from 1908 includes Bala and Cynwyd as part of the "Main Line," the earliest such atlas that I could easily locate that mentions the "Main Line" in a social/cultural sense, rather than as railroad descriptor.) These multiple historical sources all attest that Bala and Cynwyd, while on a branch line of the Pennsylvania Railroad's "Main Line," were also considered part of the Main Line in a social/cultural sense. In addition, of course, The Main Line Times regularly included events and articles on Bala and Cynwyd when I was growing up, making it clear that the news media considered Bala and Cynwyd as part of the Main Line back in the late 1960's, when I first started reading it. Numerous other historical documents can doubtlessly be found that would confirm the general consensus of residents throughout Lower Merion Township that both Bala and Cynwyd were part of the socio-cultural entity known as the "Main Line," and that this has been true for more than a hundred years, at least. Pursuant to a fix of the omission of Bala and Cynwyd from this entry, I made numerous further edits to include them in the article, including the table where population, median income and average house prices are listed. Finally, there were some glaring and obvious omissions in the listing of the Main Line's historical or recreational attractions in this article. Thus, I have added the Arboretum of the Barnes Foundation, Merion Friends Meeting, and the Lower Merion Academy to this listing. There are others, as well, but these will have to wait for more time later on. Thank you. WordRustler (talk) 19:26, 8 July 2020 (UTC)WordRustler on July 8, 2020.

Anonymous user 67.100.246.74 has twice removed Willistown Township, Malvern, Pennsylvania, East Whiteland Township, and Charlestown Township from this article and I reverted the deletions. I know that at least Malvern is commonly considered to be a Main Line community. If you are able to provide information regarding whether or not these should be deleted and why, it would be helpful. Accurizer 15:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Well first off Malvern is not a township, so it does not belong. Charlestown is a stretch in it's inclusion, the main line does not even run threw the township, it not really that close to the mail line (considering that their are other townships that are closer, like East Goshen, and Upper Merion), and it really doesn't have the same "Main Line" character as the others listed, (Upper Merion is more like a Main Line township then Charlestown). As for the removal of the others i don't know, but the general unofficial consensus would give the main line ending in the Paoli/Malvern/Frazer/Exton area which would include East Whiteland and Willistown townships, and could stretch it to West Whiteland Township. Basically though an easy way to map out what the main line is, is just follow US 30 out of Philadelphia to where it intersects with US 202 west of Malvern and you have the "Main Line", U.S. parallels the RR line know as the "Main Line". I'll some of the changes. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I added Willistown Township, because it incorporates a substantial portion of Paoli and much of Malvern, two areas that can't possibly be in dispute as being part of the Main Line. Malvern is south of Paoli, so if we use an east-west delineation, it would be difficult to include one and not the other. The railroad line referred to in relation to the area is the Paoli Local, so it would be challenging to craft a definition not including Paoli. Malvern, with its still-existent proliferation of horse farms, a significant portion of which are summer or second homes for those who primarily reside elsewhere, could be argued to be most consistent with the Pennsylvania Railroad's initial vision of the Main Line as a vacation area.

I also deleted Exton, which simply is not part of the Main Line, except perhaps in the broad and hyperbolic sense employed by a realtor. (Realtors in the Philadelphia area will commonly include Newtown Square and King of Prussia as "Main Line" communities, which is indefensible by any definition. Boothy 343 gives a good "end" to the Main Line at the intersection of Rt 30 and Rt 202: Exton is west of the Rt 30 and Rt 202 intersection he cites.

Frazer, despite being on the east side of that 30 and 202 intersection, remains questionable for two reasons: (1) there is no train station there, which would seem to be an essential part of the history and social implications of the Main Line's Paoli Local-centered development, and (2) Every discussion of the Main Line, here and elsewhere, describes it as "upscale." Frazer has a trailer park, which is an accurate assessment of its general tone.

On the other hand, communities like Bryn Mawr, Ardmore and Garrett Hill, all indisputably Main Line communities, also contain significant working-class areas and neighborhoods of tiny, often decrepit rowhouses. I'm not expressing an opinion on Frazer since I'm not familiar with that community; I'm just pointing out that a neighborhood's not being upscale doesn't make it non-Main Line. Spikebrennan 13:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

On a somewhat related note, is Overbrook in or out? I've heard arguments for both sides.Spikebrennan 13:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

That's a very valid point about the Main Line not being universally upscale. Most people think it's all "Philadelphia Story," and the communities mentioned by Spikebrennan above have pockets as described. That shouldn't in and of itself disqualify Frazer.

I would think that Overbrook would be out, simply because it is a neighborhood in Philadelphia rather than a suburb.

There are a series of maps here that I think shed some light: http://www.lowermerionhistory.org/atlas.html

There is a 1937 map , described as a "Main Line" map, that is essentially Haverford Township, Lower Merion Township, Narberth and Radnor Township. When you check the map, it includes areas like Llanerch and Manoa that would never be described as part of the Main Line today, and areas that definitely would be (Paoli, Malvern) are noted as being available on other maps such as "Chester County." Presumably, the mapmakers didn't consider them part of the Main Line as they didn't appear on the Main Line map. This is a considerably different definition that is used today, so there is obviously some fluidity to the definition over time.

This 1937 Main Line map is congruent with an article I recall reading in the Main Line Times in the '80's, but did not retain and have been unable to verify since. It asserted that the Main Line was not named after any line of the Pennsylvania Railroad, but after the "Main Line of Demarcation," which was essentially the border between Delaware and Montgomery counties. This '37 map essentially follows that definition, because it stops to the west where Chester County starts. The contention that it was named as the area "near the Main Line of the Pennsylvania Railroad" has always been suspect to me, because any PRR history would define that line as Philadelphia to Pittsburgh, so Lancaster would be a Main Line community if one follows that definition. You never hear about the Main Line Amish, so there has to be an east-west boundary that originated somewhere independent of the railroad's geography, and the "Main Line of Demarcation" argument would provide that. If anyone can verify or refute this, it would be greatly appreciated.Meersman 17:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

May I suggest that we add a section to the main article entitled something like Disputes over boundaries of Main Line, with sources (such as the maps referenced above)?Spikebrennan 13:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with Spikebrennan. I will create this extra section if necessary.

I noticed that discussion of the main line boundary stopped and the original problem, which is the anonymous deleting of three townships and a borough from the list, occurred again. Malvern should fit all the criteria of inclusion in discussion of the main line, as it is clearly part of the Welsh Tract, affluent, and most importantly on the R5 railroad line. Charlestown and East Whiteland are not along the main line railroad route, and generally do not come up as part of the main line, but Willistown, with its inclusion of Malvern and Paoli, is and does. Malvern will be added to this list, because it seems mostly about communities. If this is the case, Lower Merion Township should be removed and a separate list of townships should also be created, including Lower Merion Township, Radnor Township, Haverford Township, Tredyffrin Township, Easttown Township, and Willistown Township. Otherwise said townships should be added to the list of "communities." Citizen05 (talk) 04:54, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The "problem" with Malvern's inclusion is that 40 years ago it was cow pasture and NOT considered part of the Main Line and the R5 terminated in Paoli. Has that changed? As always, we should defer to what reliable sources say. Anyways, we should avoid unsourced or original research when making these type of determinations. Anyways, --Tom 14:12, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

If one looks at the wikipedia article for Lower Merion, it claims that it was not until after World War II that it became a non-farming community. Malvern/Willistown were not any more cow pasture than Easttown or Tredyffrin. If you can tell the difference between Easttown and Willistown in culture or topography or otherwise, kudos. Half of Paoli is located inside Willistown, and many of the homes in Willistown have a Berwyn mailing address. Does this mean we are removing Paoli and Berwyn from the list of Main Line communities as well? Also, in case you did not notice, there are no references to sourced research in the article at all. I am now planning to flag the article for not citing any references. So far there are only subjective opinions. Citizen05 (talk) 01:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Malvern most certainly was not "cow pasture" forty years ago. Malvern has been an incorporated borough since the late 19th century. I have photographs of Malvern from the 1930s showing a traffic light, parking meters, sidewalks, and a fire hydrant but not a cow in sight. Perhaps you are thinking about parts of Willistown Township that have Malvern zip codes, but those areas had housing developments starting in the early 1950s where people, not cows, lived. In fact, the farms in the Malvern/Willistown area had few cows and mostly horses where people like the Rockefellers, Du Ponts, Mellons, and more had large, stately homes, hardly the sorts who live in a region of "cow pastures." Siberian Husky (talk) 02:49, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Colleges and Universities

Swarthmore College is not on the Main Line -- look at a map. Izzycat 03:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

St. Joseph's University should be removed, it is basically in the city...not really considered part of the Main Line.

I thought about this, but about half of the campus is on the Lower Merion side of City Avenue, and the other half is in Overbrook (which by some standards is arguably Main Line, even though this point is far from settled)-- and with the sale of Episcopal Academy's campus, the center of gravity of St. Joe's will probably move even more into the Main Line.Spikebrennan

The University defines itself as being part of Philadelphia not the Suburbs.

St. Joseph's address and zip code define it as being philadelphia, pa. not a suburb. It is located on city line ave and the beginning of philadelphia. Regardless of township banter, their address is philadelphia, pa...not overbrook or lower merion. The township lines show for themselves that St. Josephs is infact off of the main line. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.143.12 (talk) 21:55, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Famous Main Line residents

I just deleted Bam Margera as a resident. Per this article , he is a resident of Pocopson Township, which is nowhere near the Main Line. If he currently lives in a Main Line community, please provide a reference and return him to the list. Thanks.

I deleted the list. It tended to accumulate cruft, and took up too much room. Additionally, the list included some dead people like Walter Annenberg-- if that's the standard, then one could go back hundreds of years and put hundreds of people on the list (which would take up far more room in the article than the value of the list would justify). Spikebrennan 03:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Origin of Name

The beginning of the article says it was named after the Pennsy tracks, later on, it says it was named after a water line. I know it's the Pennsy, I think we all do, but I wanted to put the contradict tag up to give the it a chance to self-resolve before I cut anything. Any comments? KristoferM 19:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

(Source and) cut it! 68.39.174.238 14:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

See section below about article and area names. No, it isn't the Pennsy to start with. --DThomsen8 (talk) 14:14, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Grace Kelly was not a Main Liner. She grew up in East Falls, a section of Philadelphia. Tory Burch grew up in Valley Forge, a suburb that is not part of the Main Line. Mmorningstar45 (talk) 02:36, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Article is in bad shape

I'm sorry to say that this article seems to be in horrible shape and is in need of a major overhaul. Before making drastic changes, however, I would like to open up a general discussion of the direction that the improvements should go.

The first general subject that needs improvement is an improvement of the description of what geographic areas are included in the Main Line. I recognize that there is no generally accepted definition of what is in the Main Line (the "Removal of Towns" discussion above demonstrates this). However, I think that with some research, we can come up with a number of sources so as to appropriately present some of the generally accepted concepts, as well as some of the principal areas of contention. For example, I guess that everyone would agree that Merion-Narberth-Wynnewood-Ardmore-Haverford-Bryn Mawr are all on the Main Line. Are R5 communities west of Bryn Mawr included? Some say yes, some say no, and the article can present sources in support of both views. If the Main Line extends past Bryn Mawr, how far? The article can present sources in support of various western limits such as Villanova, Strafford, Devon, Malvern, or whatever. Are Philadelphia neighborhoods such as Overbrook included? Some say yes, some say no. How far north and south does the Main Line extend: north to US-202 and south to West Chester Pike? Or is the band narrower? Is Bala Cynwyd in? Is Gladwyne in? My point is that rather than endless edit wars about including or excluding particular communities, I believe that the article should explain that there is a core area and that beyond that, the definition is subject to vigorous debate. A map would help immensely.

The "famous residents" section is, in my mind, kind of unencyclopedic and useless. There are probably hundreds of notable present and past Main Line residents. I would suggest cutting it entirely. I'm not sure how helpful the "Colleges and Universities" section is either-- what purpose does such a list serve? There is already a helpful infobox of colleges and universities in Pennsylvania.

The links section is full of commercial spam.

We also need pictures. Some (far too few) of the individual township/town/community/college articles have photographs, but more should be found. The Main Line is a beautiful, photogenic area and this article doesn't do a good job of representing this.

Finally, while I acknowledge that the Main Line is in some sense synonymous with upper-class, old-money American aristocracy, the article should also point out how the Main Line has always included significant working-class communities and African American communities in areas such as downtown Ardmore and the rowhouse neighborhoods of Haverford and Bryn Mawr. Spikebrennan 14:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I say this article awhile ago but never got to it. I have removed a bunch of unsourced extraneous material. There is alot more to go. I would suggest that if folks want to add material going forward that it is properly sourced and relevant. There are still entire sections that read like original research and have questionable sourcing. Thanks in advance!--Tom 14:23, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Recent rewrite

Hi Spikebrennen, it looks like you did a major rewrite? Could we discuss changes here? It looks like you removed a list of towns on the main line as well as schools? Anyways, thanks--Tom 15:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)ps, I see that you have been involved with this article for awhile. I do not want to exclude information about the poorer parts of the main line which do exist, its just how its put into context and the flow of the overall article. I believe less is better, but thats just me. Anyways --Tom 15:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Mostly I cut materials. The article currently contains several different lists of the communities that are in the Main Line. There should not be more than one. THe information about the schools is redudant-- if, for example, the article says that Radnor Township is in the Main Line, then Radnor School District (which is coterminous with Radnor Township) is by definition in the Main Line-- so including a list of school districts does not add any helpful information. Do other articles about particular geographic areas in Pennsylvania (other than county articles or articles about municipalities) contain lists of school districts?

I included a link to a map that purports to describe the geographic scope of the Main Line. Of course, there's no formal definition, but one source is better than none at all. Better still would be to have multiple sources that could be mentioned in the context of describing the uncertainty over the geographic extent of the Main Line.

"culturally in the Main Line"? Please. There's no such thing as "Main Line culture"-- it's a geographic expression. What is the common "culture" that Garrett Hill, Narberth and Paoli share with one another, that is distinct from the "culture" of (for example) Media, Abington, West Chester, Jenkintown or Haddonfield? Spikebrennan 16:17, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Parallel tracks in Exton, Whitford, etc.,

I just found out today that between the Main Line and US 30 there's a smaller abandoned track parallel to the line until it crosses over the line at Whitford Station. What is that? ----DanTD (talk) 17:36, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Rename as "Main Line (Pennsylvania)"

Absolutely no one calls this area Pennsylvania Main Line, and no one would think to look for it under that title. I see every reason to rename this article "Main Line (Pennsylvania)" with or without the. Any comments? 74.72.44.149 (talk) 17:33, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

• Fine by me, but you'd have to fix dozens of links and redirects. Spikebrennan (talk) 21:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Ack! And just as I am moving, and will be without internet for a few weeks...Kjaer (talk) 02:10, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Pennsylvania Main Line is not a good article name, but unfortunately the Main Line link goes to a disambiguation page, where this name is under Geography well down on the page. It was my understanding that the name of places along US 30 originated with the Main Line of Public Works, and only later the Main Line of the Pennsylvania Railroad, but I would need some research to back that up. In any case, the present article is not very good. --DThomsen8 (talk) 01:30, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Higher Education section

The Higher Education section needs help with the layout. The various educational institutions should be in one list, with the thumbnail image on the right. There should certainly be a better selection of college or university images than the one there now. The present layout looks bad. Maybe the remedy is to remove the column template. This needs help. --DThomsen8 (talk) 01:21, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Rename Philadelphia Main Line

This area has never been called the Pennsylvania Main Line. It's always been the Philadelphia Main Line. Back in the early part of the 20th century and right through the 1950's, Philadelphia debutantes were presented at the British Royal Court. When their names were announced to the King, and later Queen Elizabeth, their hometowns were mentioned as well, as in, "Miss Sarah Biddle, of the Main Line." Everybody in the blue-blood social circles called the area that. It was among the weathiest areas on the East Coast. So it would be more appropriate to name the article this way. When I Googled Philadelphia Main Line, this page came up. I would never have thought to call it Pennsylvania Main Line.Malke2010 03:19, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Agree. Unfortuneately, way to much work and above my pay grade to rename and fix all the redirects and connected article's ect. Maybe a wiki gnome wiz would help :)...please! TIA --Tom (talk) 20:53, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Add my support to the proposed rename. Spikebrennan (talk) 22:21, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The question is, if there is agreement, what step is next?Malke2010 00:32, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

True, it is definitely Philadelphia's Main Line, but how is the name to be changed?--DThomsen8 (talk) 01:40, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Probably have to ask an admin. I'll leave a message for one of them.Malke2010 06:05, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Found this: [1]. Malke2010 18:20, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Tried it out. Fixed the double redirects. The only remaining questions are:

Does someone want to change all of the articles that link here? They currently link here just fine but the name is different.

Should the category be moved?

Should the category name be changed over at commons?

Cptnono (talk) 04:55, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Cptnono. The article finally has the correct name. About the other articles, I'll take a look.Malke2010 13:01, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

You wrote, "This area has never been called the Pennsylvania Main Line." That's not quite correct. In the early 19th century, when a canal ran westward from Philadelphia, it passed through the area and was referred to as The Pennsylvania Main Line and the general area had the same name. I have a map from the early 19th century showing the canal with the title "The Pennsylvania Main Line." For the purposes of this Wikipedia article, however, it would be correct to refer to the Philadelphia Main Line, as that has been the common vernacular for more than a century. Siberian Husky (talk) 02:58, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Four-track versus two-track

One of the captions reads: SEPTA and Amtrak share the four track "Main Line" railroad grade between Philadelphia and Thorndale. While it used to be four-track, portions now are two-track, e.g. around Paoli and Dalesford. The third and fourth tracks were removed a number of years ago. Siberian Husky (talk) 02:52, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Malvern as a part of the "Philadelphia Main Line"

From time to time (and again today) IP editors have been removing Malvern from this article claiming that the Main Line "ends" in Paoli. This, however, does not comport with published sources which indicate that Malvern is indeed an official part of the ML. For instance the Main Line Chamber of Commerce lists 41 businesses in Malvern among its members (see here), the "Main Line Video Guide" includes Malvern (not Paoli) as the last community on the Main Line (see here), and "Main Line Today" magazine includes Malvern as a Main Line community (see here). That being the case, Malvern is properly included in the Main Line article. (I do not make this posting because I live or have ever lived in Malvern because I do not, I live in Ardmore. I make it instead because this is what the published reliable and verifiable sources state.) Centpacrr (talk) 20:32, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

a) Your first source is not reliable. If you search "Media" in the search bar, 20+ businesses come up. Even Chadds Ford business pops up when you search "Chadds Ford". Does that mean that Media and Chadds Ford are on the Main Line as well? b) Your second source is unreliable because you cannot prove who published it. c) What a magazine writes about doesn't matter. The magazine can write about whatever it wants. The Philadelphia Magazine writes about happenings in Radnor Township all the time (for sources type "Radnor" on www.phillymag.com.) Does this mean that Radnor is part of Philadelphia? To sum up, Malvern should not be included in the main line because there is no historical evidence of it being as such. Other editors, please weigh in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.162.95.116 (talk) 19:35, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Firstly the "Philadelphia Main Line" in not a "legal" (i.e. governmental) entity, either "historically" or otherwise, as it is not a township, borough, county, or any other kind of area with politically defined borders and a single specific municipal government, but is instead a roughly aligned series of distinct communities running WNW along and either side of US Rt 30 (Lancaster Avenue) and the easternmost twenty miles of the former Pennsylvania Railroad main line grade from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh (now Amtrak's "Keystone Corridor") starting at US Rt 1 (City Line Ave) through seven townships and two boroughs in Montgomery, Delaware and Chester Counties. The "Philadelphia Main Line" as a suburban "district" derived its name from the original "Main Line of Public Works" which was established as a railroad and canal system running across southern Pennsylvania between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh built between 1826 and 1834 by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania which originally included the Philadelphia and Columbia Railroad (later acquired by the Pennsylvania Railroad), the Allegheny Portage Railroad, and the Pennsylvania Canal system.

There is ample historical evidence that the area designated and accepted as being a part of the "Philadelphia Main Line" suburban district properly extends West from Philadelphia to Malvern (MP 21.8 on the Keystone Corridor), a borough immediately adjacent to and contiguous with Paoli. (The Malvern and Paoli railroad stations are less than a mile apart.) As evidenced in my earlier posting above the residents and businesses of Malvern have clearly and demonstrably long considered themselves to be on and within the accepted boundaries of "Philadelphia Main Line". In addition to those I noted earlier above, other published reliable sources that support this include the 2010 book "The Hidden History of the Main Line from Philadelphia to Malvern" by Mark E Dixon, and "historical" late 19th century sources such as Plate 26 of the 1881 atlas of the Main Line entitled "Atlas of Bryn Mawr and Vicinity and of Properties Along the Pennsylvania R.R. Including 1 1/2 Miles Each Side of the Road and From City Line to Malvern Station." From Official Records, Private Plans and Actual Surveys. Published by G.M. Hopkins C.E., 320 Walnut Street, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the "History of Chester County, Pennsylvania" by J. Smith Futhey and Gilbert Cope (1881) at p. 221, and "The Pennsylvania Railroad: Its Origin, Construction, Condition and Connections" by William B. Sipes (1875) at pp. 86-88.

All of these current and historical reliable sources noted in this and my earlier comment above are more than sufficient evidence and support to meet the standards of the Wikipedia Project that Malvern has historically been -- and continues to be -- properly considered to be a Main Line community and as such belongs in the "Philadelphia Main Line" Wikipedia entry. Centpacrr (talk) 21:26, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

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Newtown Square as part of Main Line

Anonymous user 38.122.15.62 has twice tried to add the community of Newtown Square to this article. The Main Line is generally understood to include communities along the actual Main Line of the Pennsylvania Railroad, which also roughly parallels US 30. Newtown Square is well south of this area. If it was to be included, we would have to add other communities along PA-3.

Pfdemp (talk) 21:10, 1 February 2019 (UTC)