Talk:Polish joke

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Name[edit]

I think this article should be moved to Polak joke or Polack joke; Polish joke should be about jokes told in Poland (compare with Russian joke). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:16, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - A term which has become an ethnic slur will never qualify to be treated as a joke. Period! --Jazzeur (talk) 03:21, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody says "Polack joke," the term is Polish joke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.104.73.223 (talk) 13:38, 9 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've been hearing (and telling) the jokes for over fifty years now, and in my experience "Polack joke" is much more common than "Polish joke". 216.255.165.198 (talk) 23:30, 16 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Merge[edit]

I propose we merge Polack into Polish joke. -- OlEnglish (Talk) 07:26, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How can you be so cruel? --Jazzeur (talk) 16:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Heh, what? I was actually being serious. -- OlEnglish (Talk) 03:06, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Have you read the Polack article? If so, you seriously need guidance with respect to your values. I am serious! --Jazzeur (talk) 03:19, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
But it's true what's written in Polack.. it IS used as an ethnic slur by non-Poles, even though for Polish people it's normal to call each other a Polack. And just because I want to merge that article with Polish joke is not saying anything about my values, except that I'm completely objective and neutral when it comes to building and improving this encyclopedia. -- OlEnglish (Talk) 08:47, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Granted that it's a correct term for Polish people. However, we are in English Wikipedia here. --Jazzeur (talk) 13:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The best argument for NOT merging them is that at various times in history, people have said that "Polacks" are lazy, or stupid, or smelly, or dishonest, or Nazi collaborators, etc. But -- at least among English speakers in the US -- probably 99% of "Polish jokes" are about one very specific stereotype: Low intelligence. In other words, as a genre of humor, "the Polish joke" is actually a variant on the "idiot joke" that became a fad in 20th-century American culture. (Although the genre "idiot jokes" never goes out of style, the American "Polish joke" was arguably a 1970s fad.) Throbert McGee (talk) 14:57, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still not sure what exactly it is that you're objecting to. -- OlEnglish (Talk) 17:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Simple, the present article stands on itself; it should not be merged with "Polish joke". --Jazzeur (talk) 22:15, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I despise these Polish jokes they make me vomit. Dr. Szląchski (talk) 16:38, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please keep comments related to the article. -- Ϫ 19:27, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What's the stereotype?[edit]

Every "Polish joke" I've heard is based on the supposed stupidity of Polish people. This isn't even mentioned in the article. 72.75.67.226 (talk) 05:47, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Added. Dzied Bulbash (talk) 03:31, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently someone took this out again after Dzied Bulbash added it. One problem is that stereotypes about Poles in Germany or France or Russia aren't necessarily the same as the stereotypes about Poles in the US or UK. So I've added this paragraph to the beginning of the United States section:
In U.S. culture, as in any culture, ethnic jokes about "new immigrants" may play on various negative stereotypes: laziness, sexual promiscuity, dishonesty, propensity to violence, poor hygiene, low intelligence, etc. But in the case of Polish jokes told in America, "low IQ" stands out as a particularly frequent cliché about Poles and Polish-Americans[4], e.g., "Why can't they make ice cubes in Poland anymore? -- Because someone lost the recipe." (However, the very same joke may be told about many different ethnic groups in different countries around the world; for example, in Russia there are a large number of "Chukcha jokes" about the supposed stupidity of the Chukchi, a native Siberian ethnic group.)
I think that it's best for this to stay in the U.S. section, rather than being in the main introduction at the top of the page -- because a "Polish joke" told in Russia (for example) doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the American stereotype of Poles having low intelligence. Thoughts? Throbert McGee (talk) 14:49, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Eight years after 72.75.67.226's comment, the article still fails to mention, until more than halfway through, the low-intelligence stereotype that is absolutely integral to understanding the point of this type of joke. Anyone who comes to this article looking for a working explanation instead gets patronized with paragraphs of cagey, hand-wringing generalities. WikiFail. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.15.50.241 (talk) 19:53, 10 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Russia[edit]

Polish jokes in Russia and the old Soviet Union were especially vile. Big Techs (talk) 15:11, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please expand upon this. That could be a very good addition to the article and lend greater perspective to the topic.Ubudoda (talk) 15:59, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it would be interesting to have some discussion of (A) Polish jokes in languages other than English; and (B) jokes about Poles in English-speaking countries other than the USA (for example, are Australian jokes about Poles less likely to deal with the stereotype of "dumb Polacks"?) Throbert McGee (talk) 17:13, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For the 18 years of my life in the USSR I heard only one joke about the Polish and only once and it was not about supposed Polish "stupidity". I heard the same joke but about the French much more often and it was about their supposed "sex-mindedness". Believe me there were no steretypes of Polish stupidity (as there were no base for it - SU did not have mass Polish immigration) or jokes based on it in the USSR. There were "stupidity" jokes similar to American jokes about the Polish or French jokes about Belgians and they were about Chukchi [[1]].

fleeing mass persecution at home[edit]

The main reason of the migrations was poverty. The same Jews emigrated from ethnically Polish lands, see Zvi Migdal. Political emigrants lived mostly in France.Xx236 (talk) 08:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Polish Americans became the subject of derogatory jokes at the time when Polish immigrants moved to America in considerable numbers fleeing mass persecution at home perpetrated by Frederick the Great[6] and Tsar Nicholas I.[7][8] "

Other Wikipedia articles such as "History of Poles in the United States" make clear that there was no large-scale Polish immigration to the US prior to the 1850s. Frederick the Great died in 1786. The source cited in footnote 8 discusses an event that took place in 1863, yet Nicholas I died in 1855. I have replaced the names of these rulers with "under Prussian and Russian rule" while keeping the sources.64.30.93.144 (talk) 23:46, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

POV issues[edit]

The whole article is very POV at times, portraying Poles as hapless and innocent victims of Nazi hatred, while ignoring the messy reality that (for example) some "Polack jokes" may have been popularized by Polish Jews as a response to the historic anti-Semitism of many Polish Gentiles. Also, in American cities where Polish immigrant neighborhoods were side-by-side with Italian immigrant neighborhoods, the Poles may have been telling "wop jokes" just as often as the Italians were telling "Polack jokes."

Another complexity that the article doesn't address: the popularity of Polish jokes in late 20th-century America may reflect the fact that Poles had by that time successfully assimilated into the middle class and were no longer ghetto-living "new immigrants" -- in short, Polish-Americans were no longer "oppressed." Thus, too-offensive-for-television jokes about "dumb Mexicans" may have been repackaged as "dumb Polack" jokes that you COULD tell on TV, because Poles had moved from the category of "weird new immigrants with smelly food" to "normal Americans".

(Incidentally, one of my grandparents was Polish Catholic, born in Krakow, and surnamed "Jankowski" -- so I remember family discussions about whether it was okay for us to make Polack jokes!) Throbert McGee (talk) 17:13, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe the Polish-Americans aren't opressed but their political and cultural position in the USA is relatively low. Xx236 (talk) 07:03, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for an insightful comment. This article needs a lot of help. It is far too attached to the idea of Polish victimhood and lacks perspective.Ubudoda (talk) 10:11, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Polish-Americans are ahead of all other ethnically-identifiably white groups (including WASPS) except for South Asians (if they are considered "white") and Jews in income, educational achievement, and avoidance of criminal behavior. Polish-Americans are well-assimilated into American cultural life. Jokes about Poles being stupid or uncouth are now obsolete.

The fitting Polish joke today goes like this:

Do you know what is really stupid? Someone who still tells Polish jokes!Pbrower2a (talk) 18:54, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That statistics count also Polish Jews, which are another ethnic group with a higher average IQ than most of the world. 177.38.210.52 (talk) 03:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removed phrase[edit]

Many of the so called "Polish jokes" originated from Nazi German and Soviet hate propaganda in conjunction with their joint invasion of Poland and further attempts at confounding of the Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles and Soviet repressions. Some of these jokes were subsequently brought to Hollywood from war-torn Europe with waves of Anti-Polish bigots.[1]
  1. ^ "The Origin of the "Polish Joke"". POLISH AMERICAN JOURNAL. 2009. Retrieved 2010-12-14.

While I have no doubts that both Germans and Russians contributed to quite a few jokes against Poles, Jews, French, and whats not, there is no evidence to associate the origin of Pollack Jokes with specifically WWII. Another problem is rather arbitrary interpretation of the source. And the most serious problem is the source itself. While the source may contain useful factual material, but I can hardly beieve the credibility of the writer who clearly operates with a conspiracy theory that Hollywood was infested with and driven by the Soviets. Citing:

"The Soviet Communists saw the value of this myth and the racist notion that Polish people have subhuman intelligence, so they had their Left-Wing sympathizers in Hollywood push it to the American public using Anti-Polish Television and Movie imagery."

Or, even better,

Hollywood and Network-TV (NBC) have a deep hatred for Anti-communist, Pro-American, Pro-Catholic Poland.

Whoa!!! Quite a "Pollak joke" we have here! Loggerjack (talk) 04:02, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Wise Men of Chelm[edit]

I'd argue that the jokes spread by Jewish people about the Jews of Chelm should get some mention here, but I don't know of any connection between the Chelm jokes and the mainstream Polish jokes. Chelm is a town in Poland, and the inhabitants are depicted as fools, so the Chelm jokes probably do qualify as "Polish jokes". You guys mind if I mention them? Any good sources out there for determining whether a relationship exists? — Rickyrab. Yada yada yada 18:51, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the Polish jokes are known internationally and assigned to some professions (police) or nations. The lede describes rather anti-Polish government propaganda.Xx236 (talk) 07:00, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Polish surname difficulties[edit]

Another common joke regarding Polish-Amnericans seems to be the difficulty others have in spelling or pronouncing their names - Back to You and The Wire both come to mind as example.--MartinUK (talk) 11:14, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Germany[edit]

In Germany there is the prevailing stereotype that Poles are thieves because of illegal car trade from Germany to Poland. This is therefore a subject of many jokes.--2.245.112.125 (talk) 18:23, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish Comedians[edit]

Why no mention/analysis of Milton Berle's (and other Jewish comedians') creation and widespread telling of Polish jokes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.216.52.201 (talk) 13:43, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Germans cannot write jokes[edit]

There is no way that Germans are the ones who wrote the polish jokes. Is there any evidence that a real ethnic german ever wrote a polish joke? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.45.19.83 (talk) 07:17, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

More examples needed[edit]

I wish there were more examples of actual funny Polish jokes here. Zezen (talk) 20:09, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Me too, there should be examples, at least ten or twenty. I've heard so many bad Polish jokes, but mostly as a little kid in grade school. I can think of only one really funny one. And I'd like to say this was a very interesting and detailed article, as is the one on anti-Polish sentiment, and I'd like to thank whoever helped the Polacks write them.

No real evidence any ethnic germanic person wrote a polish joke[edit]

There is no real evidence that any ethnic Germanic german person ever wrote a polish joke so I am going to delete all the references to germans making polish jokes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.40.201.68 (talk) 17:53, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There is evidence; it's provided right in the article by reliable sources. Restoring since your claim appears to be false. JudgeRM (talk to me) 18:07, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The reliable sources are mostly dead links and the others are speculation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.45.57.190 (talk) 20:26, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Nordic countries[edit]

The expression based on the Polish parliament has nothing to do with Polish jokes and it is not even a joke. It's also used in other countries than just Nordic countries, as the main article even mentions: "The expression is found in several European languages, including all Scandinavian languages." The article even says it is an expression in Poland itself!!

"In Nordic countries, the phrase "Polish Parliament" is often used to describe bickering, chaotic legislative bodies. The phrase dates back to the 17th and 18th centuries, when Poland's actual parliament, the Sejm, allowed any member to nullify any legislation singlehandedly, which led to constant infighting and the country's collapse."

This is completely unrelated to "Polish jokes" - there's no connection whatsoever. It is an old expression, as even the article itself mentions. 109.56.197.253 (talk) 14:36, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, fixed, thanks. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:24, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not true[edit]

This makes it sound like a person has to be biased and actually BELIEVE that Polish people are stupid, and have to actually be biased against Polish people: "Similar to all discriminatory jokes, so-called Polish jokes depend upon the listeners' preconceived notions and their affective dislikes." This is plain not true. Does a person have to hate babies and want to see them killed to laugh at 'dead babies jokes'? A person can recognize the humor behind a joke without actually believing or promoting the ideas behind the humor. If that was true it would make at least half of the jokes in the world obsolete. Many people laugh at these jokes BECAUSE they are not true; humor is incongruity. If a joke is told in front of a person who is Polish, it can be a way of poking fun at them. It is not a statement that "I believe that Polish people are stupid/inferior." 64.223.165.28 (talk) 01:46, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes the bias is the reason of the proliferation of the jokes of this kind. Of course you can understand the modified joke:
Q. How many Pollacks Norwegians does it take to change a light bulb?
A. Three—one to hold the light bulb and two to turn the ladder.
but it will also make you shrug; "this joker must be really hating Norvegians; NOBODY thinks Norvegians are so stupid", - and the joke sizzles. The whole point of the joke is that Pollacks are supposed to be stupid. You may not think so, but surely you have heard about this stereotype. What is more, even if you are not a racist, somewhere deep inside most of us think that our nationality is better than other nationalities in one way or another, unless you are a "self-hating Jew" or something. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:59, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
At least in my experience, the jokes do not depend on actually believing that Polish people are stupid. When I was a little kid, the word "Polack" just meant someone in a joke being stupid. Having done stupid stuff is a universal part of the human condition, so you laugh about it. I was shocked as an older child when I learned that it supposedly referred to actual Polish people. --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 19:59, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Same with Italian jokes.
Q: Why do Italian tanks have rear view mirrors?
A: So they can observe the war.
Is that only funny if you are biased to think Italians are cowards? Of course not. —В²C ☎ 14:12, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ostfriesland[edit]

In the mid '70s I met a group of German teens who were visiting the US. Many of their East Frisian jokes were identical to Polish jokes that I already knew. 216.255.165.198 (talk) 23:36, 16 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This happens with all Ethnic jokes, especially when a joke is about stupidity. Also, many jokes are constantly "modernized", e., by substituting the name of the current president or other notorious politician. A have a collection of 9th century Arabian "amusing stories", and I was amused to find that quite a few of them "mutated" into modern European setting. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:47, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 24 August 2020[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Polish joke → Polack joke – these are not Polish jokes Staszek Lem (talk) 20:24, 24 August 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 06:52, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Piotrus: @Jazzeur: (I moved old opinions here) Staszek Lem (talk) 20:24, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tentatively support, pending more information - The category of jokes was offensive. The slur was part of the common name of the joke type. As far as I've ever heard, it's the only context in which the slur was even used. During my childhood, I knew that jokes about stupid people were called "Polack jokes", for several years while having no idea that "Polack" even referred to a category of real people at all. As it was used then, by children where I lived, the word just meant the stupid people in those jokes. On the other hand, I thought the jokes had gone extinct forty years ago, but the article talks about much more recent jokes. Maybe there are two entirely separate categories of these jokes, from different eras, that should have separate articles with see-also headers. It just depends on the facts about the common name(s). --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 19:51, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nominator. These are not jokes by the Polish, they are jokes about the Polish. JIP | Talk 21:49, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I haven’t heard those jokes for 40 years, lol, they stopped with John Paul's election for Pope, but sure, move the page - GizzyCatBella🍁 00:18, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is no basis in actual English usage to support the notion that “Polish jokes” most commonly refers to jokes by poles rather than jokes about Poles. To the contrary as any search verifies. The closer needs to discount misinformed !votes accordingly. —В²C ☎ 22:56, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Every country has jokes like that, English joke about French, French joke about Germans, Germans joke about Poles, Poles joke about Russians or Jews, Russians joke about Americans, Americans joke about Canadians and so on. Nothing is degrading about this; it is just humour. Notice that these jokes tend to travel East. lol :) - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:50, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Wait! Who do Canadians joke about?... no one now...used to be Poles, but like 40 years ago... So maybe these jokes end in Canada? :) - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:56, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Does this qualify as a Canadian joke? –
Question: What borders on insanity? Answer: Mexico and Canada.
Nihil novi (talk) 02:32, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
LOL! This one looks like it came straight from St. Petersburg.- GizzyCatBella🍁 02:38, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So now Wikipedia is becoming a joke anthology?
If everyone is equally victimized, then why not do a mathematical cancellation of all the jokes, and go on to something meaningful?
Nihil novi (talk) 10:16, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You may nominate this article for WP:AFD if you wish. But I think it's better to wait until this move request has reached a consensus first. JIP | Talk 10:20, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
An antology is an indiscriminate collection. We are trying to prevent the latter ones. A couple of notable examples for a particular joke type, taken from reliaible sources which discuss jokes are OK. Staszek Lem (talk) 16:26, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose and Strongly oppose "Jokes about Poles" suggestion - It is sometimes true that a title is insensitive, yet WP:COMMONNAME and WP:RECOGNIZABLE. Remember that Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED and not a place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. The Google Ngrams evidence suggests that the current title is the most common, and justifiable under WP:TITLES policy. I would suggest that if you're voting only based on some idea that some people are offended by these, that you are failing to recognize that Poles are pretty irreverent and this genre is quite popular among Poles themselves. -- Netoholic @ 21:41, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • You're talking nonsense when trying to read other people's mind. If anybody was offended, it was with the term "Pollack joke", due to the ethnic slur used. Ngram has no weight because the expression "polish joke " means .. er .. polish joke. In all languages I know there is difference between "polish joke" and "joke about poles". And this article is about Jokes about Poles, which was used to be known as "Pollack joke", but by some weird twist of political correctness has become "Polish joke", because "polack" is bad word. Reminds me a recent Polish joke: "Today you cannot say 'it is dark as in Murzyn's asshole' (ciemno jak w dupie u Murzyna), you have to say 'it is dark as in african-american's asshole'!" Staszek Lem (talk) 22:03, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • You're confusing "Polish joke" (a joke at the expense of Polish people) and "Polish humor" (comedy made by Polish people). "Polish joke" has a clear, common meaning which you're obscuring. "Jokes about Poles" is accurate per "Polish joke", but its not at all a common name for this topic. -- Netoholic @ 02:07, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • I hear you, I am not confusing, I am objecting, and we are discussing. And I disagree that it is uncommon. Staszek Lem (talk) 02:28, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • In Finnish there's a difference between puolalainen vitsi ("joke that is Polish", i.e. "joke from Poland") and puolalaisvitsi ("Polish-joke", i.e. "Pole-joke"). It's just the English grammar that has too simple rules and thus has no way of expressing this difference. (In regard to the comment about Polen-Witze vs Polnische Witze in German). JIP | Talk 11:03, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first time I ever encountered the expression "Polack joke" was here during this discussion. Going as far back as the late 1960s, the only version I ever encountered was "Polish joke". That is bad enough. Nihil novi (talk) 23:28, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, you've learned something new.  :-) You may want to read more. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Why some people think that the word "Polack" might offend Poles is another puzzle for me. Polack = Polak in Polish witch means a Pole, Polish.... (Jestem Polak mały..) It's like calling a French " French" and expect that to offend them LOL... I never understood that...people you who use word Polack trying to offend Poles are a little bit ignorant I think. :) - GizzyCatBella🍁 00:39, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, in your time free of writing Wikipedia you may want to read Wikipedia a bit, especially in the areas where you vote. For starters, Polack != Polak. "French" is a proper Anglais word; while "Français" is too tricky to read aloud for it to be an insult comparable to Polack, but "Frenchie" is just what you want for these frog-eaters. And you may start wondering, why this lovingly-sounding, hypocoristic word would insult anyone.... Staszek Lem (talk) 01:33, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I only just realised that "Polak" doesn't actually mean "witch" in Polish but that was just a mis-spelling of the word "which". JIP | Talk 20:34, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as per nomination. Zezen (talk) 17:54, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Staszek Lem on 26 August 2020 suggested "Pole joke". That now strikes me as the best choice of title, and I would support it. Nihil novi (talk) 02:39, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Unfortunately this term is not in use in this context. Staszek Lem (talk) 15:44, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Might a qualifier help? For example, "Pole (ethnicity) joke".
    Nihil novi (talk) 05:12, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose and Strongly oppose "Jokes about Poles" suggestion, per Netoholic. Not to mention Support makes no sense. These ARE polish jokes. Google it. There are books and web pages devoted to the topic. And google books ngrams put the nail in the coffin of this misguided proposal. —В²C ☎ 23:09, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Google ngrams data have little relation to correctness of the term, its meaning, and its usage context. For example, see "Polish death camps". The usage of the term jumped drastically recently, but it does not mean the term is correct. In fact, exactly opposite is true, see "Polish death camps". So your Oppose makes no sense either. They ARE polack jokes. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:46, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Wikipedia is descriptivist, not prescriptivist. We look at usage including using ngram data to decide how terms are used, and describe that, arranging our title space accordingly. We are agnostic about what’s “correct”. —В²C ☎ 06:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • Not we are not using any google searches and analysis in any !votes, and I believe we even have a guideline somewhere to this end. We can use them only as some tentative indicators for answers. In this particular case I explained why you cannnot draw definite conclusions from ngram. You chose to ignore my argument. Staszek Lem (talk) 06:17, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • I did not ignore your argument. I addressed it and dismissed it, explaining why: it’s prescriptivist. You need to review WP:COMMONNAME which specifically calls out Google book searches (which is what ngram searches) as a means to identify the most commonly used name for a given topic in determining its title. Your argument is basically WP:JDLI. Certainly not based on WP:AT or any other relevant policy. —В²C ☎ 06:41, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
            • No, you did not address it; you ignored it. Let me spell it in a different way. Suppose ngram shows you that the word "dick" is used 10 times more than the word "penis". This does not make an argument that we have to rename "penis" into "dick", because ngram does not show meaning and usage context of the term. Kapish? I can give you scores of less funny examples when google searches fail miserably. And don't throw alphabet soup on me. I can do it myself. Specifically, you are ignoring the caveats from WP:SET. Staszek Lem (talk) 07:51, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
              • I hope you’re just playing dumb. Yes, of course, you can’t blindly accept the results. Some reason must be applied. So, countless search results for “dick” are not penis related but virtually all search results for “polish joke” fall under this article’s topic.While you might be able to find a few rare counter-examples of “polish joke” being used to refer to something other than this topic, they are few and far between. Here are the top results from a google search for “polish joke”, ignoring this WP article: The Canonical List of Polish Jokes The Anatomy of a Polish Joke Polish jokes: Why every country has one—and why only Americans joke about lawyers. There is no hint of “polish joke” being used to refer to anything other than the topic of this article. It IS the common name for it. There is no other term including “Polack joke” that is used nearly as often to refer to this topic. Just because you don’t like it and think it’s “wrong” doesn’t change that by even one iota. —В²C ☎ 16:49, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
                • Pleased avoid personal references. It is none of your business what I like and what not. We are exchanging reasonable arguments, regardless likes. I am not telling you that you probably like this polonophobic title, so you are working hard to find arguments favoring it, right? Staszek Lem (talk) 17:56, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
                  • That said, I came up with an idea of a compromise solution. I will work on it today. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:00, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
                    • There are situations where WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA do not provide clear guidance. In those situations there is a need for discussion and, often, evaluation of compromise solutions. This is not one of those situations. WP:RM is overflowing with challenging cases. Let’s not bog down things further with proposals like this one that blatantly go against the most straightforward relevant policies. I will look at what you propose but I can’t imagine how anything can overcome the clear guidance and supporting data we have here. —В²C ☎ 20:21, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
                      • can't imagine - I would recommend you to train you imagination, e.g., by reading science fiction, in particular Stanislaw Lem. If you dislike scifi, try TRIZ. Staszek Lem (talk) 16:56, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. (Oh dear, I promised myself I'd stay clear of emotionally charged discussions today.) Few of our readers would even know what Polack means (which is probably a good thing too), while we can all I think instantly tell what an article on Polish jokes is going to be about. Maybe we shouldn't have the article at all, I see Irish joke is a redirect. But if we're to have one make the title recognisable (and as a bonus, less offensive IMO). Andrewa (talk) 06:20, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • There is only one Wikipedian with elevated temper here, not pointing fingers, so don't worry. I am pretty much indifferent to the issue. I merely noticed a 2009 short unsettled talk: "#Name", and decided to make it formal. In came up with a descriptive name because I intended to WP:GLOBALIZE the article and after starting reading I noticed that in other languages jokes about Poles are no called "Polish jokes" and most of them do not capitalize upon the alleged Polish stupidity, reflecting different stereotypes about Poles in particular heighboring countries. In case you people didn't pay attention, this formal detailed discussion is actually A Good Thing. And for some of you who like headshringking and mind reading, I would recommend the Wikipedia article "Devil's advocate". Staszek Lem (talk) 16:56, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Going a bit off-topic... my fault maybe, I have been COVID19 stressed as have many. But while we're there, may I make two maybe relevant mentions of Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In? From a News of the Future segment: New York's striking garbage workers said they wouldn't touch the rotting mounds of garbage with a ten-foot pole. Stan Kowalski, a ten-foot Pole, said he wouldn't touch it either. We laughed as soon as we heard the name "Kowalski", but none of my Polish friends think it funny. Even more remote reference... In Australia Killer Kowalski was extremely popular, and we didn't think he was any dumber than Goldie Hawn (also of laugh-in fame at the time) and he wasn't... two very bright people indeed. For the relevance of all of this see User:Andrewa/How not to rant#Linking to this page. Humour is a very subjective thing. I love jokes at the expense of Scots and Aussies (being a bit of both) and that is part of our cultures. Other cultures are different.
      • Agree that the RM is a good thing.
      • But I'm struggling to believe that Polack is less offensive here than Polish. It seems to me to be the other way around, as I said above. Andrewa (talk) 20:12, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • I have no idea where you got an idea that the suggested move has something to do with insults. "Kowalski", but none of my Polish friends think it funny - well, it means your friends are not really Polish, probably Polish-Americans. Because "Kowalski" is a butt of "real" Polish jokes; i.e., Kowalski is a John Doe of jokes in Poland. In fact, Kowalski is a Polish John Doe, because it is the second-most popular surname (the first one is Nowak and the third Wiśniewski . So, when I hear the name Kowalski when a "real" Kowalski is not expected, I expect to laugh. (An officer tells sergeant to notify private Kowalski, delicately, that his father died. --- "Platoon! Fall in!!! Those who have a father, step forward!!! Kowalski, back off, you asshole!!!") Further, "long Pole" is not a "Polish/Polack joke", it is just a pun. On the other hand, Kowalski does not sound funny for a Russian. For them a funny Pole is Mr. Przyprzyszowski [translit: Pshipshishowski] (making fun of sibilants in Polish speech; Poles do the same, but differently: "W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie"). Staszek Lem (talk) 00:10, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • My friend Pawel (I won't say his surname but it ends in ski) was born in Poland as were both his parents, he speaks fluent Polish and now lives in Australia (as do I) so you conclusion that he's not really Polish, probably Polish-American is way off the mark. Maybe re-examine your other guesses too?
          • But thanks for the information on Kowalski, and I suspected as much! Maybe we should have an article on Kowalski joke? (;->
          • I just re-read the above to see where I got an idea that the suggested move has something to do with insults. It's not in your nomination, true, but then again your nomination is discardable as a !vote as it gives no rationale at all. It is a theme in some of the subsequent discussion, don't you think? In any case, I think it's relevant. We should avoid offensive article titles if possible. Andrewa (talk) 19:25, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
            • I told you, my nom was purely technical, a revival of a sizzled discussion. As for avoiding offensive titles, I don't quite understand where you are going. "Polish joke" is an offensive term, just like "Polish death camp". However we do have quite a few offensive titles, such as "Polack" or "Nigger", if we are describing offensive subjects. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:54, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
              • If it is supposed to be purely technical then perhaps we should speedy close it as it was not opened as that. You gave as the rationale these are not Polish jokes, remember? Raising an RM normally implies support for the move, so if you did not wish to do this you should have said so rather than giving a rationale. No, probably not a speedy close on those grounds, as you seem to have since changed your mind on it being purely technical in any case, and now strongly support the move, is that correct? Andrewa (talk) 01:12, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
              • And I told you, I didn't ever mean to imply that you thought the offensive (or otherwise) nature of the title was relevant. That idea came from other comments above, and those are the ones I was addressing. Andrewa (talk) 01:12, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
            • re: Kowalski joke: Unlike Little Johnny (Polish counterpart: Jasio), Kowalski does not have a personality, he is just a placeholder name. In English, "A man walks into a bar", in Poland it would be "Kowalski przychodzi do knajpy". Staszek Lem (talk) 20:01, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
              • Or according to the article at Kowalski it might be "Jan Kowalski przychodzi do knajpy", is that correct? Andrewa (talk) 01:12, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
                • Hmm; I didn't even read "Kowalski" :-( It needs some cleanup and expansion, too. As for knajpy, no (don't ask now; I will expand the article shortly. Or not. Long weekend...). Staszek Lem (talk) 05:08, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • That joke is told in Finland too, but less profanely. "Platoon! Fall in! Those of you who have a father, step forward!" "Private Virtanen, let's not be too hasty here..." Virtanen, like Kowalski, is just a placeholder name. It's not a joke on any real-life Virtanen. JIP | Talk 21:25, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
            • And similarly Irish jokes tend to be about Sean and Paddy, although Dave Allen (who was Irish it may be noted) occasionally used Paddy and Murphy instead. Andrewa (talk) 01:12, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support either better Jokes about Poles or worse the insulting Polack jokes...insulting but of course these jokes are told by and laughed at by idiots. Likewise Jokes about Irish and Jokes by Irish are two different things. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:02, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support "Polish joke" is dominant in Google Ngrams, but "Jokes about Poles" is clearer and more accurate. I also note that some people are ignoring WP:NOTCENSORED... –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:23, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, althought I understand the sentiment...--Ortizesp (talk) 15:55, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME; these are nearly always referred to as "Polish jokes". Hatnote should cover potential confusion. SnowFire (talk) 05:36, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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