Talk:Progression of association football caps record

Woodward's caps[edit]

I think we need to be consistent with the caps total assigned to Vivian Woodward. We should either include ALL his amateur caps, or exclude them. At the moment, the only ones included are the ones which occur between his 31st and 35th overall appearance. If we include the Amateur caps, his 30th appearance (to tie Stanfield) was actually an Amateur game against France on May 22, 1909 (an 11-0 win) and not the game against Wales on March 15 (that was his 27th overall appearance, and 18th 'non-Amateur' appearance). Similarly, his overall caps after 35 have been missed; in fact he should stay ahead of Billy Meredith all the way, and ultimately wind up with 53 caps, holding the record alone until tied by Imre Schlosser on June 15, 1917. If however, we exclude his Amateur caps (which I personally would prefer), he never appears on the most capped list. Meredith immediately takes over from Stanfield.

To summarize: if we include Woodward's Amateur caps, the table between Stanfield's 30th and Schlosser's 53rd should have the following Woodward caps only (courtesy of http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/woodward-intl.html) :

Cap	Team	Date	Opposition	Score	Note
30	England Amateurs	5/22/1909	France	11-0
31	England	5/29/1909	Hungary	4-2
32	England	5/31/1909	Hungary	8-2
33	England	6/1/1909	Austria	8-1
34	England Amateurs	11/6/1909	Sweden	7-0
35	England Amateurs	12/11/1909	Netherlands	9-1
36	England	2/12/1910	Ireland	1-1	British Championship
37	England Amateurs	3/4/1911	Belgium	4-0
38	England	3/13/1911	Wales	3-0	British Championship
39	England Amateurs	4/17/1911	Netherlands	1-0
40	England Amateurs	5/25/1911	Switzerland	4-1
41	England Amateurs	10/21/1911	Denmark	3-0
42	England Amateurs	3/16/1912	Netherlands	4-0
43	England Amateurs	4/8/1912	Belgium	2-1
44	England Amateurs	6/30/1912	Hungary	7-0	Olympic Games
45	England Amateurs	7/2/1912	Finland	4-0	Olympic Games
46	England Amateurs	7/4/1912	Denmark	4-2	Olympic Games
47	England Amateurs	11/9/1912	Belgium	4-0
48	England Amateurs	3/21/1913	Germany	3-0
49	England Amateurs	3/24/1913	Netherlands	1-2
50	England Amateurs	11/15/1913	Netherlands	2-1
51	England Amateurs	2/24/1914	Belgium	8-1
52	England Amateurs	6/5/1914	Denmark	0-3
53	England Amateurs	6/10/1914	Sweden	5-1

If we exclude Woodward's Amateur caps, the table between Stanfield's 30th and Meredith's 36th should be all Meredith, and should read (courtesy of http://www.eu-football.info/_player.php?id=13789)

Cap	Team	Date	Opposition	Score	Note
30	Wales	3/20/1909	Ireland	3-2	British Championship
31	Wales	3/5/1910	Scotland	0-1	British Championship
32	Wales	3/14/1910	England	0-1	British Championship
33	Wales	4/11/1910	Ireland	4-1	British Championship
34	Wales	1/28/1911	Ireland	2-1	British Championship
35	Wales	3/6/1911	Scotland	2-2	British Championship
36	Wales	3/13/1911	England	0-3	British Championship

Sorry Missed the sig:

Also just noticed another thing. If we include all of Woodward's, Meredith holds the record jointly with Stanfield on 30 from Mar 20, 1909 until May 22 1909, and Meredith, Stanfield and Woodward then hold it till May 29. Woodward takes it alone at that point. Stevew2022 (talk) 18:41, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Erk. While I have similar misgivings about including Woodward, the IFFHS has a modicum of authority as a citable source, in an article that's otherwise mostly a synthesis. But, inconveniently, the IFFHS progression cuts off in 1910; you are right that splicing the post-1910 non-Amateur record onto the pre-1910 IFFHS list is inconsistent. Maybe the least bad option is to relegate Woodward from the main list to a caveat in the "Criteria" section, and to state baldly that we are diverging from the IFFHS list, even though we continue to cite it as a source for the pre-Woodward record. jnestorius^(talk) 20:12, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd tend to agree with that, simply because of the arbitrary nature of the IFFHS cutoff. At the very least, we should fix the '30th cap' inconsistency. I guess this doesn't come from IFFHS, as they don't indicate tying caps (hence the first Woodward entry is 31), so we should pop in the Meredith tying 30th, and correct the Woodward 30th cap date (simply because everything else 'Woodward' includes his amateur caps). BTW, I put together a similar table for England only (using your template and much of your intro) where I specifically excluded the amateur caps. (The right thing to do I think as they're not FA sanctioned, and who really thinks VJW scored 24 more goals for England than Charlton?)Stevew2022 (talk) 21:36, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The IFFHS page on this now covers up to 1920 (not 1910 as before). Their policy has been to regard England Amateur matches as full internationals on the grounds that the opposition (being amateur) considered these matches as such. Perhaps some italics for Woodward, beneath Meredith in non-Italics? The list here remains inconsistent with some of Woodward's amateur caps being counted, and some not. All or nothing please. I would fix it myself, but then I would be tempted to fix all the massive errors, omissions, and inconsistencies which occur after about 1970 onwards, and I don't have time for that. (nfm24, 26/9/12)

Women[edit]

This appears to be the men's record. Should the title be changed and a separate page created for women, or should women be included here, either as a separate list or integrated? Ma^t_chups 10:48, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree. At minimum, the title should be changed. The world record of association football caps has been held by women for more than a decade. Irregulargalaxies (talk) 21:52, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

- The women's record progression will be a great page to add. However, I would not rename this page: a better model would be England national football team, which has a hatnote to England women's national football team. The phrase "international football match" left unqualified typically means a men's senior international, not women's, under-21, inter-league, amateur, or club international. Something similar is true for many other sports. One may regret the implicit sexism, but WP:COMMONNAME applies.

There's not much to gain from listing a unisex progression. I imagine there was only one point at which the overall record holder switched from being a man to a woman; since women play internationals more frequently, it will probably never again be held by a man (even assuming Kristine Lilly's record is ever broken). The "changeover" point itself, however, would be worth mentioning in both the men's and women's progression pages. jnestorius^(talk) 15:58, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Players missing from the early part of the list: Charlie Campbell, JR Morgan, Billy Williams, WP Owen etc. Needs another look. And the England Amateur discussion is a giant red herring. The English FA have never counted those matches as official. Some countries do, and that's their prerogative. FIFA's attempts to tidy up and make 'official' lists is a waste of time (you can't rewrite history like that). And they've agreed to leave the England Amateur question alone. I've got their email to prove it! Cris Freddi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.35.3.81 (talk) 11:40, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]