Talk:Psychogenic mode

THIS IS AN ARCHIVE OF PAST DISCUSSIONS. ITS CONTENTS SHOULD BE PRESERVED IN THEIR CURRENT FORM. IF YOU WISH TO START A NEW DISCUSSION OR REVIVE AN OLD ONE, PLEASE DO SO ON THE CURRENT Talk:Psychohistory

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Table explanation

Further discussion of the Psychogenic mode can be read in Primal Page chapters by Lloyd deMause [1]. —Cesar Tort 00:13, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Child therapy

I'm not sure what "child therapy" is doing in the "Helping" mode section. It could be argued that subjecting children to therapy is a way of socializing them to their parents' goals. -- Bookish 21:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you and just removed it. —Cesar Tort 21:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! It appears your were online as I was adding the comment! -- Bookish 22:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Context

Hello. I added a context tag to this article as, despite reading up on the subject a little recently, i still do not comprehend quite what this the significance of the info in the table is. Of course, i could just be particularly dim, but i think some context could really help. Also, i'm wondering whether or not there could be copyviolation issues, as that table (which is essentially the entire article) is a word for word reproduction from the single source. Thoughts? Rockpocket 07:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that more background explanation would help the article. Regarding copyright: Lloyd deMause responded to the Wikipedia article about him on its associated Talk page. I think it is possible that he would grant permission to reproduce the table word-for-word if he was asked nicely. From various sources I get the impression he is keen to raise awareness of his field of study. -- Bookish 14:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I expect he wouldn't mind either, but it appears the process for getting approval for using copyright material requires more than a simple post from him (though that would help). WP:COPYVIO says he would need to "Send an email from an address associated with the original publication to permissions at wikimedia dot org or a postal message to the Wikimedia Foundation". It may be, however, that the table could qualify under fair use. I don't know enough about copyright law to be sure. If so, it would still need to be made clear where it is taken from. Rockpocket 17:25, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I had in mind sending him an email (see: www.psychohistory.com), but I am not familiar with Wikipedia's copyright procedures. I'm still working my way through the multitude of Wikipedia guidelines. -- Bookish 19:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Redirect page

I created a Redirect page to send "Psychoclass" to "Psychogenic mode". I prefer the term "Psychogenic mode," because to a visitor who is unfamiliar with this field of study "Psychoclass" could imply all kinds of bizarre associations. -- Bookish 19:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Bookish. I have printed lots of deMause’s articles from his web site and presently am reading Foundations of Psychohistory (I already requested Emotional Life of Nations and History of Childhood to Amazon Books but still have to receive them). I would much prefer that a knowledgeable psychohistorian improves this article and the Lloyd deMause article. Who can do the job? I already emailed Lloyd a few weeks ago but am not sure if he has appointed someone to do the job. At any event, any knowledgeable volunteer can do it. —Cesar Tort 00:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Emotional Life of Nations is the only book by Lloyd deMause that I have read, so I don't consider myself especially knowledgeable about psychohistory. I have also read a few articles from The Journal of Psychohistory which are available online. I would like to assist by adding perhaps a few paragraphs.

Did you ask Lloyd deMause to contribute to this article? If you are in email contact already it might be best if you asked him for permission to use the table, and if he says yes, request that he sends confirmation to Wikipedia. -- Bookish 01:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I’m absolutely sure that deMause grants permission to use his table since it has been copied and pasted in other web sites as well. But I may write him to be sure. I have read some of the Emotional Life chapters in internet, but found the subject so intriguing that I ordered the book. I don’t agree with everything deMause says (e.g., his psycho-historical views about Jimmy Carter or the “fetal origins” of history). But I’m sure there must be other editors willing to contribute with their knowledge to correct the Wikipedia articles related to psychohistory. BTW, you can also email Lloyd: he always responds! —Cesar Tort 01:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Cesar, please read WP:COPYVIO for what would be required from deMause for the table to stay in Wikipedia. Thanks. Rockpocket 04:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I will read it. —Cesar Tort 04:41, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

deMause’s permission

June 2, 2006 e-mail by Cesar Tort:

Dear Lloyd deMause:

A Wikipedia editor is concerned about Copyright Infringement about the article PSYCHOGENIC MODE.

Please read this [2] and if you want that the important PSYCHOGENIC MODE article stay in Wikipedia make a statement here [3].

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Cesar Tort

Lloyd deMause replies:

I cannot make out what you are talking about, nor can I access the Psychogenic Mode article you refer to, but you have my permission to reproduce in any way you wish any of my writings without fee or other permission. I hold copyright to everything I publish, books and articles included.

Lloyd DeMause (psychhst@tiac.net Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:42)

—Cesar Tort 15:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, that is good enough for me, as i trust Cesar's account of deMause's reply. However, please note that a reproduction of his email is not actually sufficient to ensure another editor does not tag it as a copyvio, for that an email should be sent to the Wikimedia Foundation or deMause's statement should be made of his actual webpage. Rockpocket 16:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I still have deMause’s email in my Yahoo memory. Please indicate Wikimail to resend to them deMause’s email. —Cesar Tort 21:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Psychogenic modes chart

I created the chart above based on the black and white chart that appears on page 246 of "The Emotional Life of Nations" by Lloyd deMause (2002). The chart also appeared in earlier works by Lloyd deMause.

This article was started by Ark, who apparently hasn't contributed to Wikipedia since August 2002. I am in the process of composing a few paragraphs of context. For example:

The arrival of the Ambivalent mode of child-rearing preceded the start of the Renaissance (mid 1300's) by only one or two generations, and the arrival of the Socializing mode coincided with the Age of Enlightenment, which began in the late 1700's.

It would be nice if new additions were a collaborative effort by recent contributors to the article.

Cesar, if you write to Lloyd deMause again, can you ask him at the same time for permission to use this chart. He could use it on his site too, because it has a GFDL license. As Rockpocket said before, he would need to "Send an email from an address associated with the original publication to permissions at wikimedia dot org or a postal message to the Wikimedia Foundation". I created a chart of Major world religions after I was told that diagrams redrawn from original sources qualify as fair use, but it's better to be safe than sorry. It also might help to provide him with the full URL of the article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychogenic_mode

or the talk page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Psychogenic_mode -- Bookish 18:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

He has already stated “you have my permission to reproduce in any way you wish any of my writings without fee or other permission”. Can you write him this time please? (his email appears above). —Cesar Tort 21:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I'll send him an email soon. -- Bookish 23:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I re-worded the table using a condensation of text from The Emotional Life of Nations, which accompanies the chart in the book. Previously, the first row in the table linked to Child sacrifice twice! I think it now provides more context. I felt the "Parental Wish" column lacked clarity. To say an infanticidal mother's unconscious motivation is "I wish you were dead, to relive (i.e. re-experience) my fear of being killed by my own mother." might seem a bit far-fetched to a visitor who is unfamiliar with the topic. If the changes are acceptable, I will aim to add more text before and after the table in due course. -- Bookish 23:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I think changes are perfectly acceptable to explain tables (though we have to differentiate between “early infanticidal” and “late infanticidal” modes according to Lloyd’s categories). —Cesar Tort 00:27, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The original table was from Foundations of Psychohistory (1982). The Emotional Life of Nations (2002) describes early and late infanticidal modes separately. Is that what you meant? -- Bookish 00:46, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

No. I was confused. I think you are doing an excellent job! —Cesar Tort 02:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Are the fair use and context requirements OK now?

Cesar's comment about Lloyd’s categories made me think the table would look better if the single word "Infanticidal" appeared in the first column and the split between "Early" and "Late" was a subdivision of the second column.

I made some minor changes to the text also. The descriptions in the table are no longer word-for-word identical to the original text, nor is the table in exactly the same format as the original, so I believe it now qualifies as "fair use" according to the "Law" section of Wikipedia's Fair use guidelines. The relevant passage states:

"In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The chart is a redrawn version, not a facsimile of the original. It is attributed to Lloyd deMause. Again, that qualifies as "fair use" according to the guidelines. I don't believe formal permission is required now.

I removed the words "poison container" which might offend Christians. The wording for the table entry still makes sense. I also removed some duplicate Wiki links. -- Bookish 12:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Looks pretty good! Perhaps we only need now a little explanation of these tables so that the tag above the article may be removed? —Cesar Tort 15:12, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind words. I wasn't able to think of a suitable description to make an introductory paragraph. Can you do that? Maybe something from Foundations of Psychohistory? My feeling is that the new table explains the context, whereas the old one didn't. When I tried to write an introduction I found I was repeating what I wrote in the table. -- Bookish 16:54, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I don’t dare to explain the charts until the Lloyd’s books I am awaiting reach me and after I read them. I’d prefer you to explain them since that may take a while.... —Cesar Tort 18:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

User:Lumos3 contributed to this article in April 2006, but hasn't joined in the discussion about "context". I'll wait and see if someone else can compose a suitable introductory paragraph. -- Bookish 19:12, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Since Lloyd has granted permission to quote his works verbatim (though I still advice you email him) I recommend you copy and paste his explanations from The Emotional Life book you’ve read. —Cesar Tort 18:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd advise against that. De Mause's permission in an email to you is not sufficient in terms of copyright violation. Cut and pasting large chunks of his work without proper licencing per WP:COPYVIO is just asking for it to be deleted. Rockpocket 18:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

That’s why I advice Bookish to write him so that deMause himself may contact the Wikimedia Foundation directly to grant his permission there. —Cesar Tort 18:40, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The table still has six rows labelled with the names of the childrearing modes, but it is no longer a verbatim reproduction of deMause's text. I spent quite a bit of time making a synopsis of the lengthy descriptions in the book. Maybe if I return to the task a bit later on I can do the same for an introductory paragraph. That way we wouldn't have be concerned about receiving formal permission. So far, I didn't find a suitable brief summary in the book to copy and paste. It's all part of a long chapter covering many different aspects of his psychogenic theory, not just the six modes. My feeling is that as long as the article is fairly comprehensible it doesn't matter if Rockpocket's tag stays in place for while. -- Bookish 19:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Take your time :) —Cesar Tort 20:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Merge

I see no reason at all why this article should be separated from Psychohistory. —Cesar Tort 18:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. Rockpocket 19:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Apart from the first three names under this heading, User:Lumos3 is the only other registered user who has edited the page in the last six months. Maybe he doesn't have the page on his watchlist. As far as I'm concerned, I think it's a good suggestion. Otherwise, the article might not be self-contained without an overview of what Psychohistory is all about. -- Bookish 20:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

OK: I will merge it today. Only one question: once I move all the material to the Psychohistory article how can the Psychogenic mode article be removed from Wikipedia? —Cesar Tort 21:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Also: I’d like to see this talk page moved to the talk Psychohistory article. —Cesar Tort 21:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

WP:MM explains how to do it and what can and cannot be moved/merged. If you are struggling with it, let me know and i can do it for you. Rockpocket 21:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I moved already most of this article to the Psychohistory article. Now we could discuss whether or not it merits saving part of this talk page in an archive in talk Psychohistory? —Cesar Tort 21:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there is anything particularly contentious that demands this talk be archived. However, it is probably good practise to do so. Whatever you think. Rockpocket 23:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

ALso, don't forget to blank the psychogenic mode article and redirect to psychohistory. Rockpocket 23:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)