Talk:Ríu Ríu Chíu

Kingfisher, not nightingale

Here are further thoughts for my changing the usual translation of the first line, and the identification of the bird as "nightingale":

First, the word "rossignol" (the present and 16th century word for "nightingale") does not appear in the song, nor is there any romantic feeling of lament, or cheery calling to one's lover, that are generally associated with "nightingale".

On the other hand, the kingfisher is explicitly named. The kingfisher in modern Spanish is called, among other names, "guardarrio" [[1]], with the etymology of "he guards the river". This is a reasonable name, as its primary habit is patrolling the river to fish. However, another salient fact is that the kingfisher nests in the riverbank, and is well known for aggressively defending its young against predators. One word for "riverbank" is "ribera". Thus, the phrase "guarda ribera" could easily be interpreted as "he guards the riverbank", and thus as an alternative name for kingfisher.

So, the meaning of the first line of the song should be reconstrued as something like: "[with a cry of] Riu, Riu, Chiu, the kingfisher, God, kept the wolf away from Our Lamb". Then the "riu, riu, chiu" would be the predator cry uttered by a kingfisher when attacking a predator and warning the rest of the world about it.

This analysis replaces a non-sequitur trio (nightingale call, "river guards her", "God kept the wolf away") with a coherent statement recalling a behavior pattern familiar to anybody in rural Spain ("just as a kingfisher shrieks its predator call while driving away a predator, God drove away the wolf from our Lamb")

This analysis allows later words to be further allusions to God as a kingfisher. ("when He made Himself small", "making a thousand voices while flying"). EdwardNeufville (talk) 19:54, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Get it right, please. It's "guardarrío". The accent changes the pronunciation from three syllables to four, with stress on the third. Without it, it's three syllables with stress on the second, which is not how you say "guardarrío". This is in the source that you cite. This makes sense given the etymology, as "río" has that accent. Kelisi (talk) 00:43, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

The wolf and the lamb (Note 8)

It is correct, that the source gives "Dios guardó el lobo de nuestra cordera", but that obviously does not make sense. Thus, the version "Dios guardó del lobo a nuestra cordera" should not be regarded as misquoting but rather as a correction. Remember, the source was printed in Italy, and there are more cases in it which lead to the conclusion that spanish (which dialect ever) was not the printer's first language... Lurchi5 (talk) 11:25, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Laughing River

Riu is a Basque word for laugh. Riu, riu can be translated in Basque as laughing or river. In Catalan language riu translates as river, example Riu Ripoll. Chiù is derived from Latin meaning plus or more in Southern Italy, including Naples where Mateo Flecha's patron the Duke of Calabria had a claim to the throne. Chiu is an often used verb root applied as prefix in Neapolitan language sometimes meaning obstruct or close, which also occurs in Corsican language and Italian. The Monkees group translated the title as River, Roaring River. The title is expressing the composer's origin in Catalonia and the patron's claim to Naples. His song apparently didn't survive in Spain, and comes to us in Spanish but only from a Swedish publication printed in Venice, Italy.

The Christmas story in verses becomes connected to a chorus of Iberian hill country shepherds protecting their sheep from wolves. Dry summer leaves stream beds almost empty and sometimes dry in places, allowing wolves to range over their territory attacking sheep. In September begins the rainy season In Spain, and by Christmas streams in the North are running deep and swift, preventing the wolves from ranging freely, while helping the shepherds protect their sheep. Occurring at Christmas makes an easy joining of the two stories together. The Monkees translation seems to fit the evidence better than other suggestions. Astrojed (talk) 00:11, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Immaculate Conception

The song dated from the 16th century takes a stand in favor of then disputed doctrine of Immaculate Conception which was opposed by Dominicans and others at the time but supported by many. The doctrine Ineffabilis Deus was not finally established in the Catholic Faith until a Papal Bull in 1854. The loss of originals and most of the copies is understandable in light of the disputed cause.

Mateo Flecha the credited composer became a Cistercian monk near the end of his life and lived in the Monastery at Poblet where he was protected from the Dominicans by Cistercian support of Immaculate Conception. Astrojed (talk) 08:02, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

A surviving Swedish sourced copy is remarkable being published in 1553 during the Protestant Reformation in Sweden while Martin Luther was supporting the Dominican point of view. Printing in Venice is understandable as a safety precaution to avoid loss of the original and copies.Astrojed (talk) 00:30, 21 December 2018 (UTC)