Talk:Röhm scandal

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 07:49, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

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Ernst Röhm

• ... that as a result of the Röhm scandal, a Nazi (pictured) became the world's first openly gay politician in 1932? Source: https://notchesblog.com/2018/06/19/queer-fascism-and-the-end-of-gay-history/
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/No. 13 Air Experience Flight RAF ‎

Created by Buidhe (talk). Self-nominated at 01:22, 7 January 2022 (UTC).

• Article is netural, meets the required length, and is sufficiently referenced—this is incredibly fascinating, and I'm almost disappointed that I wasn't aware of this beforehand. There doesn't appear to be a link to this article at Ernst Röhm; I've added one, but I recommend making it more prominent (e.g. using {{Main}} or {{Further}}). Article was created on 6 January, the day before this nomination. QPQ is done. Hook is succinct and interesting, and is reliably sourced; I've added a link to the Nazi in question, and an image (freely licensed, used in the article, and effective at a small size) in case the promoter wishes to use it. With that, this is good to go! – Rhain ☔ 05:46, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

To T:DYK/P3 without image

First known homosexual politician

"A country other than Germany" -- how many were surveyed? Any outside the western world, such as Japan? In addition the assertion "openly gay" seems uncertain: Rohm was outed by letters, etc. then frankly admitted his orientation. What exactly was "openly" about it? Did he appear in public with any lovers, like Oscar Wilde, for example? Were any standing by his side as partners, as seen during some speeches by modern politicians? The context is thoroughly but narrowly explained -- it should also be analyzed globally and with wider historical perspective when claiming "first". This is an important topic (and deeply ironic in light of the nazification of Germany in the 1930s). Martindo (talk) 00:43, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Many (a lot of researchers would argue all) pre-20th century eras did not have a concept of fixed sexual orientation equivalent to the modern concept of "homosexuality", so it was therefore impossible for someone earlier on to identify as "homosexual/gay" at all, let alone openly so, even if they had same-sex relationships. The point is that Röhm was known to be gay and it didn't end his political career. I agree that there could be dispute over exactly what qualifies as "openly gay", so that's why I prefer to attribute to Marhoefer. (t · c) buidhe 00:51, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

No question that she should be cited because her research is clearly deep. However, I generally avoid name-dropping in the lede -- it is enough to note the name of the source in the reference details, leave her name for the body. To resolve the historical uncertainty/conjecture ("absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"), I rephrased and removed the direct quotes. If you feel there is a clearer or more emphatic description than "it appears", by all means go for it. Thanks for a civil and concise reply. Martindo (talk) 02:24, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

I also try to rephrase to avoid the need for attribution, especially in the lead. However, I disagree with the phrasing "it appears" since that immedialy raises the issue "appears to whom?" Neither Marhoefer nor anyone else says that this "appears" to be the case, so it can also be considered original research. Therefore, I think naming Marhoefer is the best for this particular case. An alternative might be the phrasing, "As a result of the scandal, Röhm became the first known homosexual politician." (t · c) buidhe 05:36, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that suggestion is even better. I encourage you to make that edit. Thanks again.Martindo (talk) 01:20, 9 March 2022 (UTC)