Talk:Raid on Mittenheide

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Hoax?[edit]

I have many Polish-American friends and I appreciate Poland's great contributions to the cause of democracy in the world. However, I have never heard about this kind of event happening in German controlled Western Europe in the middle of the Second World War. Steve Dufour (talk) 22:00, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry. I had to tag the article as a suspected hoax. I can't believe that a group of lightly armed Poles attacked a German town and killed 70 Germans, who were also armed, and only suffered light injuries themselves. I also have never heard about this incident at all, when it probably should be a major story in the history of WW2. Steve Dufour (talk) 00:32, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that you did not hear about something does not mean it is a hoax. I am removing the tag. Tymek (talk) 01:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
True. I don't know everything. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 02:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously, I myself did not hear about this whole raid until a few weeks ago. Tymek (talk) 03:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Identification[edit]

"to destroy households of Nazi party members and those Germans who participated in massacres of Poles"

A single Oberst Uppitz could be identified and pinpoint with the guerillas intel. But how in the world could they track down all these classes? This, as presented, does not seem reasonable. Especially considering that the Germans would (and did) fight back. NVO (talk) 02:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is what the source provided says. Bear in mind that the attackers were helped by the Poles living on the other side of the border, just a few kilometers away. They knew very well what house belonged to whom in this German village, and they shared their knowledge. Also, there were OST Arbeiters, who helped as well. Tymek (talk) 03:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Title[edit]

Seems strange to name a raid of 28 people on two villages "raid on East Prussia". Something like "Polish Attack/Raid on Mittenheide" might be more appropriate. --ThePiedCow (talk) 14:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is a very good idea indeed. However, since Mittenheide is largely unknown, perhaps we could rename it into "Polish Attack/Raid on Mittenheide, East Prussia. Tymek (talk) 17:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Raid on Mittenheide should be all we need as far as the title goes, perhaps? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:23, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Technicality[edit]

Poles were not classified as OST-Arbeiters, but as Zivilarbeiters (we are still missing an article on those, but see Forced labor in Germany during World War II for details).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some Points[edit]

  • Mittenheide was the name changed in 1938, the original name is Turoscheln (today Turosl) 53°30′42″N 21°35′49″E / 53.51167°N 21.59694°E / 53.51167; 21.59694
  • The village had 519 inhabitants in 1939, I wouldn't call that a large one.[1]
  • :Near the village of Turosl they reached the Prussian border.
Well, yes Mittenheide is Turosl, it's just 3 km north of the pre-war border..
  • According to this source H. Upitz was a SA -Standartenführer, not an Oberst (which is a military rank)
  • According to this source they captured "1 pistolet maszynowy", which is probably a " Maschinenpistole" - a submachinegun. A machinegun is something different.
  • I can't see the coherence between the raid and the location of the Wolfsschanze or Görings headquarter (BTW, the distance is wrong). Did anybody know about Hitler's headquarter? I always thought it was "Top Secret".
    The choice was not accidental - many German soldiers and administration workers in Bezirk Bialystok came from that part of the Third Reich
  • Did they come from that village? Or just from East Prussia or Germany in general. The village is located 3 km north of the old border , "in the middle of nowhere", it’s simply the easiest target and by that the choice was accidental.
    This raid was a shock to the local community. Its echoes reached Berlin and Heinrich Himmler himself was vividly interested in the investigation, which was carried out by the police authorities from Allenstein. However, nobody was caught and the unit, after hiding for three days in the forest, left East Prussia, heading towards Nowogrodek.
  • After Reinhard Heydrich was killed the town of Lidice was destroyed. The men were killed, women and children were sent to KZ's. The death of 33 German Soldiers in Italy in 1944 led to the Ardeatine massacre. Before the Kragujevac massacre "Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel issued an order applying to all Europe to kill 50 Serbian hostages for every wounded German soldier and 100 for each killed on September 16, 1941." I'm sure we will find a lot more similar cases (Distomo massacre, Marzabotto massacre). And what happened after 70 German civilians were killed? - The investigations had no success and nothing happened. A high SA leader and special envoy of Himmler was killed - and what happened ? Nothing. 40 buildings were destroyed (in a village of 500 inhabitants) – I would say that’s the whole village. As younger men were probably enrolled in the Wehrmacht 70 dead and 60 injured civilians out of ( less than ) 500 means almost the whole adult population – and nobody seems to remember it.
  • Maybe, just maybe some of the Partisans wanted to make their raid a little more successful and the Fish is getting larger and larger the more often you tell the story. HerkusMonte (talk) 08:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Dear HerkusMonte, thank you for those interesting comments, feel free to make changes in the article. It is quite possible that some Poles wanted to present their raid more successful than it really was, but we cannot tell that. What happened after the raid? Well, we do not know, either. Maybe the Germans shot 100 Poles, or 500 Poles? We have to remember that Lidice was unique in Bohemia. In the occupied Poland we had hundreds of such Lidices. Nobody seems to remember it - we can take it for granted that Nazi propaganda did their best to hide the raid. We have a lot of questions here, since you speak German, you might help out and find out more about the raid in German sources. Greetings. Tymek (talk) 16:37, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm sure the people from Turoscheln would have talked about such a raid throughout the last 60 years. Their farms were destroyed and their relatives were killed, but it's not mentioned e.g. here (sorry, it's German). While it's important, that a school was established in 1848, a church was built in 1846 and a Postoffice existed as well, it's not important to remember such a raid in 1943? Hmm, I can`t believe that. I'd really like to find out something more about it in German sources, too. Up to now I havn't found a single word, so my impression is rather (sorry) it never happened (not this way). HerkusMonte (talk) 18:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, this is about this raid. This post is about the settlement of Debniak, or Eichenwalde, which in the Wikipedia article here is called Krummenheide. It presents its history. In the interbellum period, Debniak consisted of 6 households and a forester’s lodge. In 1943, the forester in Debniak was Herbert Opitz, who came from Ortelsburg/Szczytno, and who is presented in the article as Upitz.

The post says that the attack on Mittenheide took place on August 15/16, 1943 and before the raid, the Poles had targeted Debniak/ Eichenwalde/ Krummenheide, to get more ammunition and weapons and to kill Opitz, an active NSDAP member. Opitz himself had fought in the World War One, for his service he was awarded the Iron Cross. Herbert Opitz died at the age of 49, together with his 41-year old wife Hedwig Opitz (nee Paul). The Poles murdered their two children - 6 year old Barbel and 2 year old Martin and took a car and a motorcycle from the lodge. The funeral took place in Mittenheide on August 16, they were buried on August 19 at the new cemetery in Ortelsburg/Szczytno. Some Polish sources, like the local magazine Znad Pisy, put the number of the murdered Germans at around 80, while the Germans, including a witness of the raid, Irma Bartlick, claim that 13 persons were killed (4 in Debniak/ Eichenwalde/ Krummenheide, 7 in Mittenheide and additional 2 wounded, who died later.


However, I have no idea who is Ryszard Wojciech Pawlicki, the person who wrote this post and if his description of the raid is accurate. Nevertheless, I have no doubt that the raid took place, it is mentioned in several books [2]. Also, look here [3] Tymek (talk) 19:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not to be misunderstood, I don't doubt "something" happened, but 70 dead, 60 injured people and 40 houses destroyed, that's too much. Your second link mentions such a raid in August 1943: 8 people killed in Mittenheide, 5 injured and the forester's family at Eichenwalde (Mr. Opitz, his wife, 2 children) killed. That sounds more plausible to me. Mr. Pawlicki (off course not a source up to now) seems to tell a similar story.
BTW,
  • I have never heard the name "Upitz" , while "Opitz" is a common name, maybe a misspelling.
  • A "Standartenführer" was quiet something, not usually living in a small village in the middle of nowhere
  • I added some [dubious – discuss] as I think, it's quiet clear that the number of killed people is disputable. HerkusMonte (talk) 08:11, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
HerkusMonte, we have sources that support facts tagged by you as dubious. Unless you find sources that contradict what is said in the article, you cannot tag almost whole article. This is not about what you think, this is about what sources say. It is very likely that 13 persons were murdered, but please find sources. We have a German book Die polnische Heimatarmee, we have Polish books. They all put the number of killed Germans at 70. So I am removing the tags, and do not add them unless you find reliable sources. Tymek (talk) 14:01, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I don't understand the problem. [dubious – discuss] is probably one of the weakest tags, just showing that the claim is discussed. You brought up a source that 12 people were killed, not 70. It should be mentioned in the article that the number of 70 is disputable. Is a newspaper article based on the memories of a Partisan a reliable source for what really happened? HerkusMonte (talk) 15:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC) P.S. That part of the German book "Die polnische Heimatarmee" is written by Janusz Marszalec. He's obviously not representing the "german" sight, in fact he used the same source (Kazimierz Krajewski) as the newspaper article.HerkusMonte (talk) 15:58, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The solution would be to write that Polish sources put number of victims at...., and German sources claim that only 13 were killed, instead of tagging. Oh, you have done it already. Tymek (talk) 16:13, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Tymek. We can't base articles on OR-unless any source is provided that disputes this action by Polish anti-nazi movement I don't think there is any reason to have the tags.--Molobo (talk) 22:43, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sources[edit]

Up to now there are 2 sources for the raid itself

A newspaper article by Kazimierz Krajewski

A German book about the Polish Home Army, this part of the book written by Janusz Marszalec, based on the book "Uderzeniowe Bataliony Kadrowe, 1942-1944" by .. Kazimierz Krajewski.

In fact the whole story goes back to a single person ... Mr. Krajewski. So, who is Mr. Krajewski and where did he get his informations from? HerkusMonte (talk) 08:38, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Doctor Kazimierz Krajewski is a historian of Warsaw's office of the Institute of National Rememberance. He is the author of several books on history of Poland and his credibility cannot be questioned. Here [4] Tymek (talk) 19:47, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bad idea to give email, and phone number Tymek. In the past I had 'unpleasent' encounter with German extremist who traced my private identity(I don't adress that to HM, but Its a general warning when we deal with such topics. Neonazis and similar ilk are active in Germany...You never know who's watching you on the net...)--Molobo (talk) 22:40, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this is a public information, so I guessed that it is OK to provide contact with Mr Krajewski to those interested. Tymek (talk) 23:52, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Molobo, I would appreciate to use my full name (HM = HerkusMonte) making such an accusation as above, Thank you. And - it's a public information, everybody would be able to find it with a little patience. HerkusMonte (talk) 06:16, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Private webpages and internet sites[edit]

Private webpages and internet sites are not valid source per Wiki. I can see some Ostprussen portal that doesn't seem to be a credible scholary source. If not, it should be removed.--Molobo (talk) 22:53, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mittenheide[edit]

What's the modern name of Mittenheide? Is it in Poland, or Russia? Does it still exist? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First of the"Some Points" above

it's just south of Pisz. HerkusMonte (talk) 17:50, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Irma Bartlick[edit]

Who is Irma Bartlick?--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 10:11, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

An eyewitness who remained at her hometown after WWII (the report "I am from Turosl" was published in Poland, in Polish). BTW, please don't call a native Masurian "a witness from settlement of Nazi Reich" [5], that's extremely offensive and shows a significant extent of bias. HerkusMonte (talk) 10:29, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
An eyewitness-please provide quotation about that. It may as well be that she is quoting somebody else. What are scholarly credentials, and in what university does she work in?--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 10:37, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
An eyewitness does not need to work at a University, her version was published in "Znad Pisy", a local magazine of Pisz and that's sufficient. HerkusMonte (talk) 10:43, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please provide quote that she is indeed the witness and is not just quoting somebody else. We will get about her reliability later after the quote is provided.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 10:46, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Znad Pisy" is available at the library of the Herder Institute ([6]. I had access to the source in the past, when I added it 3 years ago. Unfortunately I don't have the original copy anymore, just a translation (thus I'm currently unable to quote the source). However it is out of doubt, that Bartlick mentions completely different numbers and the murder of the forester's children. HerkusMonte (talk) 08:08, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Considering your incorrect attributions based on sourced material(like the ones in German Polish trade war) I would very much like to see the quotes to confirm that they are indeed the same as claimed. For now I will remove the unsupported parts. We can restore them once quotes are provided.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 09:04, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Blatant disruption of WP:AGF. I had access to the original three years ago and still have a translation/summary. Please stop your disruptive editing. HerkusMonte (talk) 09:17, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please assume good faith. Please provide needed quotations and information about who the mysterious Bartlick person is.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 09:30, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's you who just accused me of lying (talking about AGF). The source is accessible at the Herder Institute and probably at libraries in Poland too. Your request shows (once again) a significant battleground mentality. HerkusMonte (talk) 09:36, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry to hear that, my only aim is precise and objective Wikipedia. If you say that the material is available, you should have no problem in providing it. I am looking forward to it, and want to wish you a happy day as a fellow Wikipedian.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 10:24, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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