Talk:Robert Milligan (merchant)

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Comments[edit]

A bit shaken to learn that Milligan was English. I wonder whether he knew? As far as I understand it he was from Dumfries-shire, married an Elgin (sorry, Forres) Dunbar, a kinswoman of Duncan Davidson of Tulloch, himself a West India merchant, in 1781, and spent some years in Jamaica in the 1770s (one source says he left in 1771) as (perhaps among other things)a merchant in association i.a. with George Forteath from Alves, Morayshire, a cousin of the John Kelly who may or may not have been ( more probably not) the co-attorney of Chaloner Arcedeckne (an Irish absentee planter at Golden Grove), and who was certainly recorded as dying in St Catherine Jamaica in 1804. In later life he would appear to have settled in Hampstead, owning a house called Rosslyn. Could the source for the alleged English origins of Milligan be revealed?Delahays (talk) 13:14, 7 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

An entry in the site "Hughan history from Kirkcudbrught" suggests a date of birth can be determined, though in fact the entry places two a decade apart, probably because of a literal. In it Robert Milligan 1756 -1809 is said to have been born on 19 August 1746 - a date which would make the rest of his known career in Jamaica and elsewhere slightly more credible. It should be possible to find a Dumfries OPR entry to confirm this.Delahays (talk) 19:12, 7 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Milligan's son, David, born 1789, died in Jamaica in 1818. Archer's Memorial Inscriptions records his grave and mentions Robert Milligan's career in Kingston as a partner in the merchant house of Dick and Milligan, but nothing about any family plantations.

There is an OPR baptism of a Robert Milligan in Dumfries at the end of August 1746, which records the father, James, as "innkeeper". Two merchants are witnesses. Another Robert is born in Kirkcudbright in 1756. The birth of a natural son christened James to a Robert Milligan and a mulatto woman called Mary Slaughter is recorded in Kingston, Jamaica in December 1778 and a Clayton Slaughter with Robert Milligan as father and Mary Slaughter as mother in 1779Delahays (talk) 22:32, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Milligan gave evidence to the House of Commons Committee on Trade with the West Indian Colonies on 24 July 1807, enquiring into the possible consequences for the West Indian colonies of an American War. He describes himself as a merchant in London for the last 27 years and for the twelve years before that as a merchant in Jamaica. No mention of any direct involvement with planting. His statement in the same indication of his connection with the West Indies that he was in the island of Jamaica from 1775 to 1779 probably has to be understood in the context of the discussion of war with the United States, since the years he mentions were the early years of the War of Independence. It confirms his move to London in 1779, and suggests a term as a merchant in Kingston from 1767 or thereby - i.e. from the age of 21. The 1811 and 1812 Jamaica Almanacs (i.e. after his death) show Robert Milligan as the owner of Kellet's (aka Kellit's) plantation in Clarendon, Jamaica, with over 200 slaves. 23:39, 8 January 2014 (UTC).

Suggestions: amend entry to reflect Milligan's known origins - if it's felt evidence for Scottish birth isn't conclusive, and that the evident Scottish identity of his wife, the name of his first Jamaica offspring, known Jamaican partners and associates ( with the exception admittedly of George and Thomas Hibbert) doesn't establish it, then the description 'British' is available. Follow that with a a quotation from his 1807 evidence to the Commons Committee.Delahays (talk) 09:53, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above suggestions seem reasonable to me, but it needs more investigation. Perhaps the Barbicon Library has more information. --DThomsen8 (talk) 03:43, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just in case - I've left copious but rather hurried notes on your OWN talk page which might just save you time in the Barbican. I don't want to boast, but they are the result of about three quarters of an hour's actual search time while waiting for a taxi to turn up and I confess to being aided by memory, since I had already doen something like it a couple of years ago, but the notes are 400 miles away in the North of Scotland. But I think they establish he was a Scot, though they will need confirming. Good luckDelahays (talk) 11:00, 3 August 2014 (UTC) I'll now have to travel tomorrow but that's my fault, not yours. Just to add a final point. The additional Jamaica plantation name, Kellet's or Kellit's indicates that the Robert Milligan recorded as the owner will almost certainly be the West India Docks Milligan from Dumfries. Allan Milliken's wensite indicates a kinswoman married a Kellit or Kellet. Presumably his son David would have been involved with this plantation at some time or other.Delahays (talk) 16:20, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Kellit's Kellet's or (UCL LBS) Kellett's had 669 slaves in 1812 and even at the award of compensation in the 1830s 440+ This is a big number. By then it had passed to the Shand family, then in Aberdeenshire. Not clear how it passed out of the Milligsn family's hands, but you generally find the smarter planters see the writing on the wall and if they can, they sell. I haven't looked up the Kelletts yet, but a guess would be that an intra-family deal took place, where by Robert, then permanently based in London, took it over. Otherwise I think it's true his career in Jamaica was a merchant's not a planter's but I'm always willing to be proved wrong.94.195.138.53 (talk) 16:57, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for both entries. I will follow up.--DThomsen8 (talk) 20:16, 3 August 2014 (UTC)--DThomsen8 (talk) 20:16, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

IF - big if - Robert Milligan should just happen to be the Robert born to James the Innkeeper in Dumfries in August 1746, the Scotlandspeople reference is OPR Births 821/00 0020 0155 Dumfries. The ScotlandsPeople designation for its image of the original gives the date as 1 August but the reproduction of the original MS record is 31 August. Scotlands People doesn't have an OPR registration for 19 August, so that date may possibly be a birth date ( source? family records?)and 31 August the baptismal date. But don't put too much money on it. Neither this Robert nor cousin David (i don't know his DOB) would appear to have had a rich planting family on the strength of what's known about their birth families. If you get a chance, see if there's a death notice for Robert which might indicate where he was buried. There's very unlikely to be an obituary, and the Dictionary of National Biography is unlikely to be reliable. But if he started as a merchant at 21 or thereabouts, there would have to have been some financial backing. Since as far as I can tell his Jamaica associates were Scots, and the Forteaths had planting links in Jamaica, but not to planters - attorneys, yes, but not planters ( but attorneys generally made 6% of the plantation gross annually and they were the accountants) what did Milligan fall back on? I know nothing about Dick, his partner. If you get a chance, have a look for Milligan and Dick. They were based in Kingston, I think. Good Luck Delahays (talk) 20:43, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Profession[edit]

This page has been edited and now it says he was a prominent slave owner, but he was a merchant who owned slaves. Being a slave owner isn't a profession and we shouldn't change facts due to current political movements Jagger712 (talk) 06:38, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All his wealth came from slavery, his works were a product of slavery, and he owned over 500 slaves at the end of his life. I'd say it's a pretty key part of his identity even if he'd prefer to describe himself as a merchant. Whether it's an actual profession or merely a role he fulfilled doesn't diminish that it's noteworthy, as evidenced by sources. —dgiestc Posted: 05:28, 25 August 2020‎
Completely and utterly incorrect, he made his fortune in the sugar-cane, coffee, gin, trade, the slavery was the evil tool he used to produce the goods. Govvy (talk) 08:44, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We're saying the same thing, that his wealth came from his enslavement of others. Wealth from slavery is what makes him notable 200 years later. Not sure why you're trying to hide it behind a fig leaf of trade goods. —dgiestc
He used slaves as labour in some of his enterprises and slaves were one of the 'commodities' that he traded. Although those aspects of his businesses are abhorrent to us today - more than 200 years after the event, neither were illegal or necessarily seen as immoral or frowned upon using the standards of his day. So in that context, to say "that his wealth came from his enslavement of others", or even that some of it did, is not true. His wealth came from his business acumen and his ability to use the most efficient methods legally available to him for conducting his production and trading activities. If he was in business today, he would probably be using the cutting edge technologies available now to reduce costs and increase efficiency, robotics and automation possibly, and we wouldn't be disparaging about his achievements because of that. -- DeFacto (talk). 07:15, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
His wealth came from slavery. Full stop. That it was legal at the time does not make it any less noteworthy. —dgiestc 18:00, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The statue was removed on 9 June 2020 by the local authority to "recognise the wishes of the community",[edit]

Had the community really been asked and how did it express its wishes? This needs to be referenced instead of just making an assertion. By the way, the protesters who pulled down Colston's statue are referred to as "anti-racism." This is opinion, not fact. 81.5.159.162 (talk) 15:56, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is in quote marks, so this is attributed to the local authority.--Chuka Chief (talk) 18:32, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Place of birth[edit]

I was going to put down Dumfries in Scotland, but I am not sure if that's disputed, the description at UCL says

"According to his ODNB entry he was born in Dumfries, and baptised there 31/08/1746, although a tension exists between his description as the son of James Milligan, an innkeeper, and the assertion in several secondary sources that 'he grew up on his family's plantations in Jamaica".

Govvy (talk) 19:49, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@DeFacto: did you read this note I posted? Some scholars seem to think that he might not have been born in Scotland, and there maybe miss-information. Govvy (talk) 16:23, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Govvy, no I missed this, sorry. Do you have reliable sources offering alternatives or supporting that doubt? -- DeFacto (talk). 17:03, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Govvy, the UCL ref also gives his address as Dumfries in 1746. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:56, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Govvy, I think the 'tension' alluded to here is only between "his description as the son of James Milligan, an innkeeper, and the assertion in several secondary sources that 'he grew up on his family's plantations in Jamaica.'". -- DeFacto (talk). 07:04, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You know, I think the UCL source, although correct in details, it can be annoying in it's format! :/ Govvy (talk) 09:31, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Children[edit]

Four or Eight? UCL says he only have four children and Oxford dictionary entry contradicts that by saying he had eight children. Seems to be a sources problem here also. Govvy (talk) 16:32, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Govvy, is the UCL source reliable as a source of fact? And I don't see it saying four. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:05, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Have you looked at the UCL link? Uni College London - Robert Milligan, it cites it's sources and actually cites the Oxford source itself, however it only lists four children. "Justina (1786), Robert (1787), David (1789) and Mary (1792)." Govvy (talk) 21:12, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Then again, the same UCL also lists a Henry Davidson making it 5. :/ hmm Govvy (talk) 21:17, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Govvy, yep I looked there, and in para 4 of the bio section it says His residuary heirs were his 8 children. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:50, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
o lol, I missed that. Silly me. Govvy (talk) 21:54, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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