Talk:Roberto Firmino

HITC Sport

'HITC Sport' is not a reliable source and should not be used on any articles, so I have removed it from this. GiantSnowman 11:49, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Roberto Firmino/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Zwerg Nase (talk · contribs) 18:11, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I am on it! I hope I can even get a first review done today. Cheers, Zwerg Nase (talk) 18:11, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Ok, so first of all, naturally thank you for your work!

Nevertheless, I feel that this was far from ready for being posted as a GA nominee in the shape that is was. I have now fixed several minor prose issues and some bigger mistakes, since that took me less time than writing them down here. I have however, still multiple issues with this article:

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

• A very general thing, that I notice at pretty much all the articles of current football players: All the club career sections are ever telling me is he scored a goal here, another here, another one there. What it does not tell me, but what I find far more interesting as a reader: How was his overall performance? Was he considered one of the best players of his team? Was his form consistent or did it have ups and downs? The Firmino article tells me next to nothing about that. And it could! Apparently you speak German, so why don't you for instance take a look at the Kicker mid-season and after-season rankings, in which he was featured three times now? Check [1] and [2]. I am sure that there will be plenty of other German speaking articles discussing his form at Hoffenheim over the years of sites such as kicker.de or transfermarkt.de.

I dont speak German! I cannot understand the reference. RRD13 দেবজ্যোতি (talk) 14:54, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

If you do not speak German, how and why did you include so many German speaking sources? That casts into question everything that is in this article. Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:28, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• To come to the more concrete stuff: In the lead, shouldn't it say that he plays association football as opposed to that other Football that is not actually played with your foot? I am aware that it is stupid, but that is what those bloody Americans force us to...

See other football articles, none mention association football. RRD13 দেবজ্যোতি (talk) 15:02, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Might be proof that the football community here has a sub-standard level of dealing with things, more about this later. Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:28, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• Section "2011-2013" (I changed this header), second paragraph: Why are the goals against Bremen, Mainz and Wolfsburg in one sentence, and the one against Freiburg in another? Are those far apart? If so, how did he play in between? Was there a period of bad shape? You get my drift. Those informations are far more exciting than where and when he scored a goal. If I only wanted that information, a table would suit the cause better.

Nothing done about this so far. Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:28, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• I also added some templates there. Saying when those goals were scored can already help the reader understand how his form developed over the season.

I think it is useless to add so many dates, you can very well check some other football GAs, like Kevin Nolan, John Johnson (footballer) amongst others. @Zwerg Nase:.RRD13 দেবজ্যোতি (talk) 15:02, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

John Johnson (footballer) is an article you did by yourself, which was only elevated to acceptable shape by GA reviewers because they were not, just like this one, anywhere near GA level when you nominated it. I believed it only passed in its third attempt because the reviewer was very lenient. Kevin Nolan is slightly better because it gives information that this article here does not, but I would still question its GA status. Just telling me when a player has scored is not what a Wikipedia article is for. Unfortunately this habit is omnipresent in football articles here, and unfortunately it is widely accepted by the football community, but I don't see why this sub-standard should be rewarded. Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:28, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• For the 2012-13 season paragraph: He played quite well in a season in which his team was almost relegated. That is noticable and should be included, if you can find a good source pointing out that fact. {{done{{ RRD13 দেবজ্যোতি (talk) 08:34, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Not done! You give a source that says coach Gisdol saved the club from relegation and claim it was said about Firmino. That alone is a reason to fail this nomination. I changed this back. Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:28, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• A sentence at the end of every season paragraph would be great, stating how his overall performance was considered in the press (again, the Kicker rankings can be helpful), but maybe he was also voted Player of the year or something by the fans of his club or something like that?

Nothing happened here. Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:28, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• Section "2013-": Why is the split here? As far as I can remember (and the statistics seem to back me up here), he had a difficult first one-and-a-half years at Hoffenheim, but his form picked up in 2012. So shouldn't the split of sub-sections be "2011-2012" and "2012-"?

The split has been made on the amount of information put in each of the section. RRD13 দেবজ্যোতি (talk) 08:34, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

That does not seem a very good argument to me. Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:28, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• Section "2013-", second paragraph: Firmino played his first game... Was that the first match day of the season? If no, why was he left out of the squad before?

First match of the season, as well as first match of Firmino. RRD13 দেবজ্যোতি (talk) 08:54, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

So why don't you write it like that? Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:28, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• The seven goal thriller: I remember that game well, but I doubt that many other readers will, so you should at least include what the actual result of the game was. Done RRD13 দেবজ্যোতি (talk) 08:54, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• International career: After scoring 16 goals. I guess you mean in 2013-14. If so, you should write it that way. Cause now it might also be understood as "after his first 16 goals in the Bundesliga".  Done RRD13 দেবজ্যোতি (talk) 08:51, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

I give the nominator the usual seven days to adress the issues at hand. All the best from Berlin, Zwerg Nase (talk) 10:24, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

The seven days have not yet passed, so I give the nominator the rest of the time out of good will, but let it be noted that I am not willing to pass this unless major changes are made. And the example you set with the relegation play-off sources, I do not want to see such a thing again! That made the article worse, not better. Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:28, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

This should not pass GA, the majority of content (which I have removed) is commentary ("He played in this game, he scored a goal in that game" etc.) which should not be included. This matter has been raised at WT:FOOTBALL. Furthermore there are issues with peacock language. GiantSnowman 13:38, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your contribution. As you can see above, I agree with you on the commentary style. Can you link me to an archived discussion concerning this issue in general in the WT:FOOTBALL group maybe? I cannot believe this was never generally discussed before since even biggest articles such as Lionel Messi ofter suffer from this... Zwerg Nase (talk) 13:41, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry, but I am losing patience here a little bit. It is my job to decide when I close this review. And as long as it is not closed, you should not make such drastic changes in the article. I will undo them once more and move the discussion about it to WT:FOOTBALL. Let us please wait for consensus on this issue before deleting content again. Zwerg Nase (talk) 13:46, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

The seven days have passed and the demands were not met, I am therefore forced to fail this article. Zwerg Nase (talk) 14:31, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Are you happy for me to therefore edit the article and remove all the sports commentary? GiantSnowman 17:41, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

I would still say that it would be easier to leave most of it and go from there, but I won't stop you. I would definitely prefer if you had a more productive approach: Not just take it away, but write something better instead. Zwerg Nase (talk) 19:38, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

But the content I am removing cannot really be replaced, as it is trivial and unencyclopedic. GiantSnowman 16:37, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 June 2015

Roberto Firmino is now a Liverpool Player. For futher sources visit, www.liverpoolfc.com61.0.97.204 (talk) 14:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC) 61.0.97.204 (talk) 14:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

 Not done As clearly stated on the BBC "The 23-year-old's deal is subject to a medical, which will take place after he returns from Chile." - so we wait until the results of the medical - please see the banner at the top of the article. - Arjayay (talk) 14:12, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2015

BIO NEEDS TO BE CHANGED SO THAT HE PLAYS FOR LIVERPOOL. 92.19.210.250 (talk) 14:20, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

You have not provided any reliable sources which verify the change requested. GiantSnowman 14:55, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

"We do not need every goal"

A handy rule if he got a goal in a 3–1 loss to West Brom, but he got two against the league leaders. This is pretty likely going to be the highlight of his season. What else could be written about his season if this is seen as trivial? '''tAD''' (talk) 13:00, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Vandalism needs revising

I do not have time to do this right now, but the article needs to be checked for vandalism.

Quickly typing this here to that I can fix it later (when I have more time), but the issues that jump out are:

• current club = Liverpool, not Manchester
• people have been editing his goal stats
• playing position changed

If anyone else fixes this before I get a chance, I will be grateful!

Exotropic Snail (talk) 09:15, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

update - fixed by 118.136.193.159 - thanks! Exotropic Snail (talk) 16:27, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Assist Stats

I think for a player like him. We defo need assist stats. Can anyone please add them in? I am not the best of editors unfortunately. Badkhan (talk) 21:05, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

@Badkhan: - no, there is longtime consensus at WT:FOOTY that assist stats are not included on any articles. GiantSnowman 08:02, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit requests

Club career- Liverpool Firmino scored in the away leg of Liverpool's Champions League quarter-final tie against Manchester City to send Liverpool through to the semi-finals of the competition, 5-1 on aggregate. This was Firmino's twenty-fourth goal of the season making 2017-18 his most productive season to date.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. L293D (☎ • ✎) 02:29, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 April 2018

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. L293D (☎ • ✎) 15:41, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Honours

Records

Liverpool

Most continental goals in a season: 11, (Shared With Mohamed Salah) https://www.90min.com/posts/5977955-roberto-firmino-equals-record-set-by-liverpool-legend-steven-gerrard-with-goal-against-porto

False 9 v.s. "center-forward"

Hello, this is my first time using a talk page, so please let me know if I'm doing anything wrong. This is kind of long, so skip to the bold at the bottom if you just want to see the edit I'm suggesting.

In reading this article, I noticed that in the "Style of play" section, it is strongly implied that Firmino played as a false 9 under Klopp before and during the 2016-17 season, and subsequently moved to a traditional striker role. Specifically, these sentences:

After initially starting as a left winger at Liverpool under Brendan Rodgers, new manager Jürgen Klopp utilised Firmino more centrally, initially as a False 9. However, after impressing under Klopp's pressing system, Firmino established himself as Liverpool's first choice centre-forward by the 2017–18 season.

My concerns are as follow:

• First of all, this doesn't explicitly say that his position changed, it just strongly implies it. To my understanding, "center-forward" is not mutually exclusive with "False 9." (If it is, the linked page on the "False 9" position should be edited because it uses the word "center-forward" to describe the position in the first sentence. But I don't think it is.) Regardless, even if the terms are mutually exclusive, it is needlessly ambiguous, and "true 9" or "traditional striker" would be more appropriate terms.
• Second of all (and perhaps more importantly), there are several reasons I'm not sure it's accurate to say he moved out of a false 9 role.
  • The source cited for the second sentence does seem to support the idea that he moved to a traditional #9 role (although it uses still somewhat ambiguous terms like "bona fide striker" and "frontline striker"). However, that piece from the Liverpool Echo was written after only the first match of the season. In addition, it explicitly states that "Maybe he's not what could be termed a traditional centre forward, but then such are the varying degrees of attacking play in the modern game, it's difficult to ascertain exactly what is," before going on to say that its reasoning is that strikers are judged by goals and that Firmino had scored the other day, which seems like pretty flimsy reasoning, especially considering that season ended with Firmino having scored less than half the goals of Liverpool's top scorer that season. Given that at the time, Firmino had just taken the literal number 9 to wear on his jersey for the new season, I think this article may be a bit more in reference to that than a change in playing style.
  • There are multiple sources from deep into the 2017-18 season that I have found which describe Firmino's role as that of a false 9. (Here and here are two examples). In addition, I've found some tactical analyses that explicitly talk about Firmino's role (e.g. here, here, and here). Two out of the three I listed explicitly describe him as a false 9, and all tactical analyses I've seen about his role since the summer of 2017 describe him as a nominal center forward who drops back to help create scoring opportunities for other players, which fit the description of a false 9.

Anyway, I know this is a lot. This is how I think the article should be changed: The Liverpool Echo source should be removed (at least as the citation for this part), and then, instead of having to make a subjective judgement call as to whether or not he's really played as a false 9 since 2017-18, we should merely state that his role under Klopp has been described as that of a false 9 (with the appropriate citations of course) and then give a very brief bit of technical detail about his role, including how it might differ from other false 9s, in order to be most neutral yet accurate (also citing sources that provide that information, examples of which I've already linked).

Please let me know if you think this is or isn't a good idea, if you have any other suggestions, and, of course, if I seem to have made any errors! Oh, and of course, I am not expecting anyone else to make the edits themselves, I just want some feedback first. Emptybathtub (talk) 04:45, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

"On DD/MM, Firmino scored in a N-N result against X"

Is it just me or does the 2017-18 section read like a summary of every goal Firmino scored that season? There were 27, it's hardly an occasion to stop the presses for. It also reads terribly. 89.243.234.226 (talk) 23:37, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

That section does list too many of his goals and should be trimmed to comply with WP:NOTADIARY.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 09:17, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

@89.243.234.226 and SaskatchewanSenator: agreed, I have removed most of them, left a few 'key' ones in - but if you want to remove them as well then be my guest... GiantSnowman 09:23, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

First Brazilian player to score 50 goals in the Premier League

Some editors seem determined to keep the ambiguous and potentially misleading wording "first Brazilian player to score 50 goals in the Premier League". Why?--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 23:17, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

What does the source say? GiantSnowman 08:00, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

The two cited sources are similarly ambiguous and potentially misleading.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 19:59, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: I answered your question. Could you please answer mine? SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 18:33, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

If the sources conflict then remove the info. GiantSnowman 19:41, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

I don't want to remove it, just improve the wording.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 17:38, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Diego Costa scored 50 Premier League goals by April 2017. [3] Diego Costa was born in Brazil and played twice for the national team, "becoming" Spanish at the age of 25 [4]. I don't think this can be considered synthesis when correcting an article by the WP:DAILYMAIL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:E1AB:4500:5163:DD7A:EBE8:D5C9 (talk) 13:19, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Please don't remove any details unnecessarily if you are unsure about the info yourself. Diego Costa is not a Brazilian player but represents Spain. Roberto Firmino's records were all proper, and there are many sources regarding the same; Nothing ambiguous about it or misleading!. He is the first and fastest Brazilian player to reach 50 goals in the PL which is even on the same wikipedia page. Then why was the Honours mention removed?. Please reinstate the same along with the other mentions. --7leumas (talk) 09:34, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Should his league title success and contribution be included, or omitted?

This has been the discussion thus far: His away contribution being especially noteworthy and publicised throughout the season, I made mention of his “decisive” goals in games to helping the club win the league.

His goals were decisive in the games that are sourced. See the sources. Barton Dave (talk) 21:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

That is your personal view and original research. At Wikipedia, as you should know by now, we rely on reliable sources. So, again, where are the reliable sources which describe his goals as "decisive"? GiantSnowman 21:14, 1 July 2020 (UTC) Jesus H. Christ, answer the bloody question. If you cannot understand why you, as a blatant fan, having a blatant opinion that his role was "decisive" when that is not directly stated by the sources, but is instead cobbled together from a number of sources (see WP:SYNTH, which you are in violation of), then you should not be editing as you are clearly incompetent. GiantSnowman 21:19, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Now you’re being obtuse. Do you understand what decisive means? I’m being genuine. Here’s a link. Definition for “decisive”, strongly affecting how a situation will progress or end, Scoring the decisive goal, ie. winner. I stated, “Firmino scored a number of decisive goals away from home, including against Chelsea, Crystal Palace, Wolves and Spurs...” And the sources for this, “Liverpool wins late again, thanks to clutch Firmino finish”, “Wolves 1-2 Liverpool: Roberto Firmino scores late winner for leaders”, “Tottenham Hotspur 0-1 Liverpool: Roberto Firmino goal gives Reds win“, and the Leicester game, “Liverpool go 13 points clear as Roberto Firmino leads ruthless rout of Leicester“. But his league title success and his contribution to this isn’t notable apparently, but a nondescript 2016-2017 season with “On 29 October, Firmino scored in a 4–2 win over Crystal Palace, and on 6 November he scored in a 6–1 over Watford, On 27 December, he scored in a 4–1 win over Stoke City.[38] On 21 January 2017, Firmino scored a brace in a 2–3 home defeat to Swansea City, On 4 March, he scored the opening goal in a 3–1 win over Arsenal.[40] On 8 April, Firmino scored the winning goal in a 2–1 win over Stoke City, and also scored the winning goal in the game against West Bromwich Albion, which Liverpool won 1–0, on 16 April“, is? Barton Dave (talk) 22:26, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

So, do we include his contribution to the league title success, or leave it out? If we are to leave it out, then surely every football bio must be stripped bare of just about every game mentioned? Here’s a bit more on his contribution: “Of Liverpool's 27 Premier League wins this season, 14 have been decided by a one goal margin. Firmino has provided the decisive goal in five of those games – all away from home.”. And from the official Premier League page, one such “decisive” goal at Palace, “Firmino produced the decisive moment with five minutes remaining”. Barton Dave (talk) 22:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

You're right that we don't include every game or goal, only notable ones. Debut, hat trick etc. GiantSnowman 11:27, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 July 2020

<!- 2A00:23C4:7718:5001:D148:6D61:54BD:AD40 (talk) 15:19, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Pupsterlove02 talk • contribs 15:45, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

IPA

So the solution to the "IPA issues" cause by editing the incorrect IPA, which apparently went unnoticed for ages, is to... completely remove any pronunciation guide? Actionactioncut (talk) 20:46, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 December 2020

Drunk driving not drink Zbryski21 (talk) 23:59, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Both drink driving and drunk driving are correct, so no reason to change (in fact, drink driving is British English, which is probably more appropriate as the incident occurred in the UK). Danski454 (talk) 01:47, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 May 2021

On May 16th away at West Brom, Firmino captained Liverpool for the first time in the absence of Wijnaldum who was designated 4th choice captain. The match ended 2-1 to Liverpool with goalkeeper Alisson Becker scoring a historic winner in the 95th minute. 109.249.181.107 (talk) 08:25, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

And what change do you want to make? GiantSnowman 10:01, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 August 2021

I want to say how hoffenheim had found him. Many news articles which are reliable and sources from the club itself. (He was found via the football game, football manageer and I don't think this article ahs mentioned it. Before Roberto Firmino has signed with Hoffenheim, he was found by them through the football app, football manager.Football288 (talk) 18:56, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

@Football288: what wording do you want to use, and what sources do you have to support it? GiantSnowman 18:58, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:08, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: 'Before Roberto Firmino has signed with Hoffenheim, he was found by them through the football app, football manager.' User:Football288 GiantSnowman 02:22, 25 August

Again - where are your reliable sources which confirm this information? Also please do not remove either people's talk page posts. GiantSnowman 09:23, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 November 2021

Change 2021 to 2019 as Argentina won the 2021 Copa America not Brazil who were finalists. BasedCF (talk) 01:27, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Based BasedCF (talk) 01:27, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:51, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

EFL Cup

The 2021-22 EFL Cup needs to be added in his honours. 151.253.161.117 (talk) 03:35, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Agreed KnutTheNerd (talk) 20:09, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 October 2022

change “counter-attacking” to “counter-pressing”, in the introductory paragraph below the picture of Firmino.

Firmino does not “propel the club’s counter-attacking system.”

For one, Liverpool play a counter-pressing system, not a counter attacking system, and when they do counter-attack, it is led by Salah and the other winger, not the central player in Firmino.

Firmino’s job is to lead the counter-press, defending from the front as soon as Liverpool lose the ball.

This looks like a misattributed quote to me, presumably from someone who doesn’t actually watch football or believes that the two are interchangeable - they are definitely not. 2A01:4B00:E624:E100:6569:3C30:BAE8:FAFE (talk) 03:12, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done Please also provide a reference next time or say it can be found in the cited source. Also, do you have a conflict of interest? Aaron Liu (talk) 11:30, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Proposition

In light of previous conversations, I am suggesting without any kind of disrespect a proposed introduction which comments on Firmino’s impact and notability and is also up to date in terms of trophies. I am not going to add this unless it is approved.

Roberto Firmino Barbosa de Oliveira (born 2 October 1991), also known as Bobby Firmino, is a Brazilian professional footballer who plays as a forward or attacking midfielder for Premier League club Liverpool and the Brazil national team. Regarded at his peak as one of the greatest strikers in world football, Firmino is known for his clinical finishing, proficient technical ability and impressive work-rate.

After starting his career with Figueirense in 2009, he spent four-and-a-half seasons at 1899 Hoffenheim. His 16 goals in 33 games in the 2013–14 Bundesliga season earned him the award for the league's Breakthrough Player. In July 2015, he signed for Liverpool where he earned plaudits for his creativity, goalscoring and work-rate, with manager Jürgen Klopp referring to Firmino as the "engine" that propels the club's counter-pressing system. Firmino was notably part of a successful attacking trident with Sadio Mané and Mohammed Salah. In the 2018–19 season he won the UEFA Champions League, and the following season won the UEFA Super Cup, the FIFA Club World Cup after scoring the winner in the final, and the 2019–20 Premier League title. Following this, Firmino has also won the 2021–22 FA Cup, the 2021–22 EFL Cup and the 2021–22 FA Community Shield.

Firmino made his international debut for Brazil in November 2014. He represented the nation at the 2015 and 2019, the latter of which he won with his country. Furthermore, Firmino has played for his nation at the 2021 Copes América as well as the 2018 FIFA World Cup. Scientelensia (talk) 20:44, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

References

No - for a variety of reasons including WP:MOSNICKNAME, WP:MOSLEADCITE, and WP:UNDUE. GiantSnowman 20:59, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Oh sorry but to clarify - no issues with simply adding the additional Liverpool honours (apart from EFL Cup) to the lede. GiantSnowman 21:02, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

EFL Cup Confusion

Did Firmino Win the EFL Cup in 2022 or not?! His profile on liverpool official web site Liverpoolfc.com it says he won it! and other web sites like tranfermakt says it too. He did play in the semi finals against Arsenal!. please clarify!. KnutTheNerd (talk) 20:42, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 May 2023

+ Appearances and goals by club, season and competition Harrywilliamrobinson606 (talk) 01:46, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DreamRimmer (talk) 02:44, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2023

Firmino's time at Liverpool is ending by the end of the 2022-23 season, therefore I would like to request to add the end date to his time at Liverpool in the profile box. Erngpawat19 (talk) 10:46, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. DreamRimmer (talk) 13:21, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

In the English system, contracts end on 30 June (so players leave clubs on that date) and begin on 1 July (so players join new clubs on that date). Please wait until those dates before editing. GiantSnowman 17:21, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 May 2023

Roberto Firmino played for liverpool. He has left. 118.200.173.57 (talk) 06:51, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. voorts (talk/contributions) 06:54, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

In the English system, contracts end on 30 June (so players leave clubs on that date) and begin on 1 July (so players join new clubs on that date). Please wait until those dates before editing. GiantSnowman 10:07, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 June 2023

Liverpool 2015-2023 24.184.118.234 (talk) 22:31, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lightoil (talk) 02:16, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

They want to say that firming has left Liverpool - which will be true on 30 June 2023, not now. GiantSnowman 17:55, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

This was a simple mistake which has been corrected. Please refrain from overreacting about this situation. Scientelensia (talk) 21:24, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Opinion.

Do you think that this edit was justified? Special:MobileDiff/1158347218

Do you support adding section titles, as is done in many similar notable articles? Scientelensia (talk) 21:26, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

No - it's POV and not encyclopaedic. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. GiantSnowman 08:01, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion, which I knew before. I will seek to ask other users. I have already asked another user (User talk:Namdor67#c-Namdor67-20230604095600-Scientelensia-20230603212900). I wonder what @Mattythewhite, @Kingsif, @Bretonbanquet and @Hzh, a group of distinguished editors, would think on this matter. Feel free to ignore this message though of course, I do not wish to bother you but just seek a third opinion or advice. Scientelensia (talk) 13:56, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for asking me. I feel that section titles like these usually look too journalistic; they tend to introduce POV, and detract from the encyclopaedic nature of Wikipedia. Occasionally they can help if they are completely neutral, but I don't think they're necessary really. Bretonbanquet (talk) 14:52, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

I really appreciate your reply. Fair enough, but what if they were based on achievements and not on opinion? (I also believe that in Firmino’s case titles should be added just as in the articles of counterparts of similar achievements) Moreover, I was wondering about your opinion on descriptive text in the lede, for example:

‘Roberto Firmino Barbosa de Oliveira (born 2 October 1991) is a Brazilian professional footballer who plays as a forward or attacking midfielder for Premier League club Liverpool and the Brazil national team. Regarded at his peak as one of the greatest strikers in world football, Firmino is known for his clinical finishing, proficient technical ability and impressive work-rate.’

User:GiantSnowman has chosen to delete this and disagrees with this idea, but I have seen descriptive, widely-agreed-upon and properly sourced comments like this being added on many other football articles such as Joshua Kimmich and Harry Kane, to name two good examples. For this reason, I believe the second part of the text I provided should be moved from the Style of play section to the lede. What do you think?

Again, I really thank you for responding to my query.

All the best, Scientelensia (talk) 15:32, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

I will first note my thanks also, especially recognising other users pinged and knowing this is a truly broad selection. I think that proseline section headings can be acceptable, as they can mark "periods" better than just labelling by years, for example. However, they should be used with caution; the heading must be a descriptor that is widely agreed marks the period - with this able to be proven by RS. See, for example, the Messi article. I (personally) think titling sections after achievements gained in a period is rather pointless; it doesn't give a sense of the period so it's redundant to just mentioning the achievements in prose. If they're truly remarkable achievements, maybe acceptable. Looking at the Firmino article without section titles, I do not feel it is lacking. Looking at the proposed titles in the diff, I do not think they would improve this article. Kingsif (talk) 20:38, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

No - it's POV and not encyclopaedic?? I have to disagree due to all the astounding high profile footballers I have mentioned having "Section Titles", and that is just an example. If you are correct then again could you elaborate? before I bring admin into this. Namdor67 (talk) 20:27, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Read this thread, where many others have also comments. It's WP:PUFFERY and WP:POV and not needed. GiantSnowman 21:03, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

That's your opinion only, that is all. You're incorrect, as why do all the footballers mentioned and more have "Section Titles"? All the editors are incorrect according to your logic.

I believe we shall have a consensus for "section titles".

Section Titles do not detract from the encyclopaedic nature of Wikipedia. It separates blandness, hence why the majority or "consensus" of editors have added section titles of the majority of high profile footballers on wikipedia.. Namdor67 (talk) 21:44, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

(Below is from Scientelensia responding to Kingsif)

What you say makes a lot of sense, thanks so much for replying! I really appreciate it. If you have any ideas for section titles, if you have time could you please tell me?

All the best, from Scientelensia (talk) 14:27, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

• Section titles is fine, as long as it is about something particular notable about him or significant achievement that season, something unquestionably true. It is also useful to distinguish the highlight of a season there are many seasons in person's career, making it easier to navigate and read, especially if a lot is written in the article (can't say that there is a lot written here though). So "2018–19 season: Champions League title" is fine, but "2017–18 season: Prolific goal-scoring" is debatable because it is more of an opinion (he scored fewer than half the goals of Salah in the Premier League). Hzh (talk) 08:41, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you so much, that really helps. I definitely agree that these titles makes the page easier to navigate. If you wish (and have enough time of course), could you please add section titles if you have some ideas?

  Also, what do you think of sourced descriptive text in the lede (see above)? Thank you so much for your reply 🙏 and warm regards. From Scientelensia (talk) 14:29, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

You can simply put his notable achievement of the season (cup wins etc.) If there isn't anything particular important then just not add anything. I should say that I find your proposed edit for the lede problematic. Firmino is known for his clinical finishing, proficient technical ability and impressive work-rate is MOS:PUFFERY and possible POV and best avoided. I'm not sure comparison to Harry Kane is useful, since Harry Kane is already "England's all-time highest goalscorer, as well as being the second-highest Premier League all-time goalscorer", Firmino has not even reached 100 Premier League goals yet. You can google for "Roberto Firmino world greatest striker" if you want sources and see which one can be used, but be prepared to discuss if other people object to it. Hzh (talk)

Thank you, that makes sense. I will not add anything to the lede but will add section titles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scientelensia (talk • contribs)

There is NO consensus for section titles - I have removed again. Do not re-add. GiantSnowman 16:20, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Section titles are fine, looking at great footballers including LFC players past and present on Wikipedia as a reference how can it be disputed? Messi, Renaldo, Steven Gerrard, Harry Kane, Neymar, Kylian Mbappé to name a few. Current LFC squad with also section titles, Darwin Nunez, Diogo Jota, Luis Diaz, Alisson Becker, Fabinho, Jordan Henderson, Thiago Alcântara, Trent Alexander-Arnold...I feel it adds depth and reads much better. Hence arguably best footballers have " section Titles. If people disagree, change Messi and or any other listed and footballers and see if it's accepted.

Those who argue against it, please give me a valid coherent reason?

Kind Regards Namdor67 (talk) 20:16, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. GiantSnowman 21:02, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

A football player's season represents a significant chapter in their career, which is why section titles overwhelmingly dominate the Wikipedia pages of most players. This observation is not subjective; it is simply a commonly observed trend. It seems that you are attempting to impose a particular viewpoint as an absolute rule, which is not appropriate. However, it is likely that Firmino's Wikipedia page will be updated after his contract expires to summarize his years at Liverpool. Considering the large number of Liverpool supporters who cherish Roberto's time at the club and frequently visit his page, it would be a kind gesture to include section titles for this final period of his Liverpool career. This suggestion is driven by a desire to show respect, honor, and integrity. Alternatively, if we choose not to do so, it should be based on rational reasoning rather than a blanket dismissal "not needed". Namdor67 (talk) 05:15, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

“You can simply put his notable achievement of the season [as a section title] (cup wins etc.) If there isn't anything particular important then just not add anything.” “Section titles is fine, as long as it is about something particular notable about him or significant achievement that season, something unquestionably true. It is also useful to distinguish the highlight of a season there are many seasons in person's career, making it easier to navigate and read, especially if a lot is written in the article (can't say that there is a lot written here though). So "2018–19 season: Champions League title" is fine, but "2017–18 season: Prolific goal-scoring" is debatable because it is more of an opinion (he scored fewer than half the goals of Salah in the Premier League).” – @Hzh

“I think that proseline section headings can be acceptable, as they can mark "periods" better than just labelling by years, for example. However, they should be used with caution; the heading must be a descriptor that is widely agreed marks the period - with this able to be proven by RS.” – @Kingsif

Ultimately, two of the three editors (66.6…%, which is a majority) that responded to me agreed with the idea (specific bits highlighted in bold) to add section titles here, while not agreeing with my previous ideas for the words in actual titles. Also, while @GiantSnowman disagrees with me, @Namdor67 agrees with me. This does show that a consensus in favour of adding section titles in some form has been reached. Such titles will break up content and allow every user to more easily find which section they want to visit and what achievements they want to read about. However, I have reached out to a few more editors to find more, and can report back if needed.

Thus, I would appreciate if @GiantSnowman reads my message here and comes back to me, while no longer just reverting my additions under blanket dismissals. GiantSnowman is clearly a proficient editor, but ownership and reversions without good reasons are not useful towards improving this article, in my opinion.

Kind regards,

From Scientelensia (talk) 14:48, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

For the record, here are my newly proposed titles which have so far been only rejected by GantSnowman:

====2015–2017: Adaptation to Liverpool==== / ====2015–2017====

====2017–18 season: Champions League runner-up====

==== 2018–19 season: Champions League victory====

====2019–20 season: Premier League title====

====2020–2023: Domestic double and departure==== Scientelensia (talk) 14:54, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Simply not needed, and the people you are selectively quoting above also said things like "Looking at the proposed titles in the diff, I do not think they would improve this article" and other editors have also opposed them, saying they "tend to introduce POV". This article does not need section 'titles', so leave it alone. GiantSnowman 17:39, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

- “the proposed titles in the diff”: these were the titles that I at first provided, different from the ones I just provided above. I acknowledged this in my above message (“while not agreeing with my previous ideas for the words in actual titles”). Essentially, the user supports titles, but did not support these ones –> Special:MobileDiff/1158347218 (not the same as the ones just above).

– You can cite editors who disagreed, of course as that is your right, but in total 4/6 editors agree to add titles in some sort.

– Please explain, why does it not need them? You have thus far provided no reason. Do not expect that, despite your high status, your edits, which in this case are unusual, will immediately be accepted by all. (WP:OWNER) Scientelensia (talk) 19:51, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

As said earlier, if you disagree with a valid reason, or one at all (!), delete the section titles on Messi’s article – for instance – and see people’s reaction. Scientelensia (talk) 19:53, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I have no intention of removing Messi's section titles, given they are longstanding and community consensus is therefore for them to remain. Here, however, is the opposite - we do not have titles, we have never needed titles, and there is no consensus for titles. WP:NOTAVOTE. GiantSnowman 20:51, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps you would consider adopting a more inclusive approach and eliminate section titles not only from Roberto Firmino's page but also from the pages of the current Liverpool FC squad members, such as Mohamed Salah, Darwin Nunez, Diogo Jota, Luis Diaz, Alisson Becker, Fabinho, Jordan Henderson, James Milner, Thiago Alcântara, Trent Alexander-Arnold, and Liverpool's new signing, Alexis Mac Allister. These players may not have the same lengthy tenure as Messi, but their seasons and time at the club are still significant chapters in their careers. Ultimately, the decision regarding section titles should not be solely based on personal opinion or a quest for justification to deny Roberto Firmino section titles. As it stands, the majority of Wikipedia editors tend to include section titles for high-profile and distinguished footballers, recognizing each season or period as a crucial part of their career. While I appreciate your determination, but I find the reasoning behind your stance highly questionable. Namdor67 (talk) 01:59, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Who is we? Why do we not need titles? I would like you specifically to answer these questions, please. I would encourage you to read my earlier messages, though they are somewhat long. As WP:BRD says, ‘Consider reverting only when necessary’. We still do not know why your reversions are necessary. Too, WP:WHATISCONSENSUS states that we must ‘Reach a compromise’. So let’s do that, once you’ve answered my questions. Scientelensia (talk) 16:51, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Please read this too: (from WP:FALLIBLE) ‘An approach you take at a minor, less trafficked article seems to go over well. You try the same approach at a higher trafficked article and encounter a great deal of resistance. It's possible, then, that the approach you took wasn't right at the minor article either, just no one was around to call you on it.’

Does this experience not relate heavily to yours, with all due respect? You know that if you took your approach at, for instance, Lionel Messi’s article, you would ‘encounter a great deal of resistance.’ However, for you, the “approach you take at a minor, less trafficked article seems to go over [comparatively] well”.

I’d also encourage you to study this: WP:ROWN.

By all means, if there are better titles than those I have suggested, please put them in. WP:PARTR

Kind regards, and wishing you happy editing,

From Scientelensia (talk) 17:12, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

TLDR. GiantSnowman 19:47, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

I assume that means ‘Too long; didn’t read”. If not, please accept my apologies. If so, I find it insulting that you have no response but to ignore my arguments, which I thought out carefully and wrote out for some time. You will I hope at least read this section:

(from WP:FALLIBLE) ‘An approach you take at a minor, less trafficked article seems to go over well. You try the same approach at a higher trafficked article and encounter a great deal of resistance. It's possible, then, that the approach you took wasn't right at the minor article either, just no one was around to call you on it.’

Does this experience not relate heavily to yours, with all due respect? You know that if you took your approach at, for instance, Lionel Messi’s article, you would ‘encounter a great deal of resistance.’ However, for you, the “approach you take at a minor, less trafficked article seems to go over [comparatively] well”.

Kind regards,

From Scientelensia (talk) 21:56, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, please see WP:TLDR. GiantSnowman 14:00, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

I would also appreciate if you replied to my earlier query: “Please explain, why does it not need them? You have thus far provided no reason.” Scientelensia (talk) 17:35, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

I have already explained. They are POV and PUFFERY and not needed. If you do not understand, you should not be editing. GiantSnowman 19:48, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

On the contrary you should not be editing..You have made numerous edits to Roberto Firmino's page and clearly have developed a sense of ownership over it. You are determined to impose your own preferences, regardless of whether they are right or wrong. Not to mention obvious errors on the page, you did not rectify. Namdor67 (talk) 20:29, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Let’s calm down. Nobody should be saying that the other should not be editing. I would like to address your accusations however.

1) POV? Let’s go through my titles and see if there is any POV.

• ‘2015–2017: Adaptation to Liverpool’: Firmino is described as “steadily improving during his first season in England,” and a change in position has been detailed (“Firmino's form improved as manager Jürgen Klopp played him alone up front in a false 9 role”) I would say that this constitutes an adaptation to a team, however, I have also suggested that no title be used for that section, as can be seen when looking at my proposals above.
• “2017–18 season: Champions League runner-up”: There can be no trace of POV at all here. That Firmino was a Champions League runner-up that season is clearly documented here: Roberto Firmino#Honours.
• “2018–19 season: Champions League victory”: There can be no trace of POV at all here. That Firmino was a Champions League winner that season is clearly documented here: Roberto Firmino#Honours.
• “2019–20 season: Premier League title”: There can be no trace of POV at all here. That Firmino was a Premier League winner that season is clearly documented here: Roberto Firmino#Honours.
• “2020–2023: Domestic double and departure”: There can be no trace of POV at all here. That Firmino won the FA Cup and EFL Cup in those years is clearly documented here: Roberto Firmino#Honours.

2) Onwards, to PUFFERY. I wouldn’t say any of the titles that I recently proposed are ‘peacock words’ but instead verifiable information. There are no words that aren’t justifiable; most are rooted in the very basic fact.

3) I have now answered your accusations. Please, I would like you to tell me what parts of my titles have ‘POV’ or ‘PUFFERY’. If you like I could always ask for a third opinion; perhaps that would be easier. Scientelensia (talk) 08:29, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

OK, this is better now you have explained. I am not comfortable with the 2015-17 section heading, something like 'early years' or similar would be better. The others seem OK. GiantSnowman 14:00, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

That makes sense, please could I add the titles but change the first one to ‘Early years’ as you suggest? Scientelensia (talk) 14:06, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Sure. GiantSnowman 14:31, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Scientelensia (talk) 16:30, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2023

"On 4 July 2023, Firmino joined Saudi Pro League club Al Ahli, signing until the year 2026[107]" There is a missing fullstop after 2026, please add it. 190.213.202.23 (talk) 23:45, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done Deauthorized. ^(talk) 23:58, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Al Ahli goals

Firmino has not scored any domestic league goals for Al Ahli at the time of writing.

The three goals listed here seem to be referring to goals he scored in a friendly. Tomjam91 (talk) 22:33, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect - these are domestic league goals. GiantSnowman 19:33, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman You are incorrect. As you can see, my edit was made on 26th of July. Firmino scored his three goals on August 11th. My edit was therefore correct at the time. Please make sure you're correct before making assumptions. Tomjam91 (talk) 19:42, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

• 20th July.

Tomjam91 (talk) 19:42, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 November 2023

188.236.67.157 (talk) 19:53, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

His father, Jose Roberto Cordeiro de Oliveira

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. What change are you asking for? RudolfRed (talk) 20:09, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 February 2024

Could you add this: in the External link ? 154.180.219.2 (talk) 12:23, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

What is the ID number to use? RudolfRed (talk) 03:32, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done Found his ID at his Wikidata entry. Liu1126 (talk) 19:51, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Roberto Firminho leaving Al- Ahli

Robert Firmino has confirmed in multiple interviews that he is going to be leaving the Saudi Pro league and returning to Liverpool as he has already put pen to paper with Liverpool for his return at the start of the next premier league season as he has revealed no plans to remain playing in Saudi Arabia. He has confirmed after this current season ends he is terminating his contract with Al Ahli. 2607:FA49:2141:B900:9D6:EE0B:F1AA:7CE3 (talk) 14:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia relies on reliable sources to verify information, especially about living people. GiantSnowman 20:16, 13 March 2024 (UTC)