Talk:Ronnie Kasrils

Ronnie is white

Would it be relevant (given that he joined the ANC in 1960) to mention that he's white (or at least was classified as white by Population Registration Act)?

I've also heard rumours that he's jewish. Can anyone confirm this? Since he's quite scathing of the actions of the state of Israel, might this (if confirmed to be true) be relevant?

I agree that it is relevant that he is Jewish, especially since he has been in a controversy very recently with a Jewish South African newspaper over his harsh criticism of Israel [1]. It is also relevant because some Jewish South Africans believe he is overly harsh with Israel in part to give protection to the Jewish community in SA against terrorist attacks. Davidm82 18:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Well I have to disagree. Its foolish to think that this would be his motive. You really think that would work? And what may I ask are Desmond Tutu's motives?

It seems your comments are based on the notion that all Jews are ProIsrael.There is nothing wrong with being Jewish, and opposing Israeli Gov practices. Lots of Jews the world over, (and yes even in Israel) ranging from the most Orthodox to the least, have issues. Please note, I'm not advocating the opposite, that all Jews oppose the state either. All I'm saying is that one cannot infer someones motives simply based on their religion. --nocturnal omnivorous canine 22:03, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Picture added with material from his biography page at the Ministry of Intelligence Services.Goldsztajn 01:47, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

"former Soviet Union"

This may seem pedantic, but why is the Soviet Union being described as the "former Soviet Union" in his article? In 1963 and 1983 it was the Soviet Union, which could have be described as being the "former Russian Empire", but certainly not the "former Soviet Union". Russia in 2006 can be described as part of the "former Soviet Union."

I hope this is clear, and I've changed the wording. I've also changed "the then Soviet Union in 1963" to "the Soviet Union in 1963" as this is also unnecessary and complicating.

Ecadre 03:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Training in the Soviet Union

I have removed the "after completing a specialist course to the rank of Brigadier in USSR in 1983." I cannot find a reference to this, if there is one, please cite and re-edit. Goldsztajn 00:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

the closest mention i can find similar to the removed statement is this: "He went on to complete a specialist course in intelligence and a general officers course at Brigadier level." from the biography page at the Minsitry of Intelligence Services. This does not clarify what year the training occurred, it seems to suggest immediately after 1964, moreover the removed statement suggested he attained a rank of Brigadier, whereas the material suggests he undertook courses which would have been completed by those at the Brigadier level. Goldsztajn 00:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

"Political Stand on Israel"

Too many POV elements, with selective use of sources. For example, have removed section which previously stated "embarced Hamas", since the reference pointed to a statement which showed participation with all elements of the elected representatives of the Palestinians, this includes Hamas. Also removed the sections on "baby-killer" since Kasrils was clearly referring to the Israeli Military (and not Israelis in general), but the military part keeps getting removed.Goldsztajn 01:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, removed statement that Kasrils is "anti-zionist" since this is not correct as he has publicly supported a two-state solution.Goldsztajn 01:55, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Why did you delete the information about Kasril's support for suicide bombings and his continual reference to Israelis as Nazis? --Herut 07:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

None of the citations previously on the page gave any evidence whatsoever for Kasrils supporting suicide bombing. They were removed because to make the claim is libelous, please note wiki rules on biographies. Goldsztajn 14:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

With regard to "continual reference to Israelis as Nazis", there is no evidence in the citation which previously appeared on this page and is hence libelous. The article writen by Kasrils in the journal Umrabulo contains a quote where an Israeli criticises the actions of other Israelis as Nazi-like. Other references in the article are clearly directed at the Israeli military and not Israelis in general. So two points stand out: first there is no evidence of continuous referencing (which would imply multiple occassions over an extended period of time) and second the citation utilised does not contain material of Kasrils specifically calling Israelis Nazis.Goldsztajn 14:58, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

This is not the first time he has referred to Israelis as Nazis, as you would see if you followed the South African press. And regarding suicide bombings, did you not see that in the Umrabulo (ANC journal) article Kasrils turns Palestinian suicide bombers into martyr bombers. Scare quotes are employed to deny and mock any Israeli perspective, such as, a Palestine "suicide" or martyr bombing. Outrageously Kasrils then compares them to the Biblical Jewish hero Samson, who took his own life after receiving a final blessing from God, enabling him to crush the Phillistines who were holding him captive. And you obviously did not see the preceeding article in Umrabulo where he denies the basis for Israel's existance, saying that only the 'Palestinians' are the indigenous inhabitants, and that the Kingdoms of David and Solomon did not exist! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Herut (talk • contribs) 2007-05-12 16:20:37.

I don't think you understand wiki very well. It is not a place to proselytise or debate scripture. I have read both the pieces in Umrabulo - Part 1 and Part 2 - I do not see the points you are making. I think you also conflate what Kasrils actually criticises, which is the Israeli Government and not Jews or Israelis per se. The article as it stands is very balanced, highlighting both Kasrils' recent statements and the reaction of the South African Jewish Board of Deputies. Goldsztajn 00:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

You clearly have not done your research very well. Kasrils accuses Israelis of perpetrating a ‘creeping genocide’ against the Palestinians. He openly calls them Nazis. He says that Israel is worse than 'apartheid SA'. He accuses them of child murder, calling Israelis ‘baby-killers’. He calls suicide bombers ‘martyr bombers’. He has said that he supports a two state solution as a temporary strategy, as a root to a 'one state solution' i.e an Arab dominated Palestine, replacing all of Israel. --Herut 08:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

No references, no citations. You really should read the guidelines on biographies of living persons. Goldsztajn 05:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Why are you protecting Kasrils?

Where is your eveidence of Kasrils publicly supporting a 'two state solution'? On the contrary he has written many articles clearly attacking the very foundation and existence of Israel and of 'Zionism' And why did you take out the sentence that was sourced, reporting that he has reffered to suicide bombers as 'martyr bombers'. At a speech at Wits University in Johannesburg he stated that suicide bombings are a 'legitimate political response'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Herut (talk • contribs) 08:47, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

No need to protect Kasrils, I'm sure he can do it very well by himself. You ask: "Where is your eveidence of Kasrils publicly supporting a 'two state solution'?" Well, here it is: "Minister Kasrils reiterated the commitment of the South African Government towards the achievement, through peaceful negotiations, of a two-state solution based on a viable Palestinian state on the 1967 borders and in accordance with the relevant UN Resolutions." Issued at the South African Mission- Ramallah; 06 May 2007 Goldsztajn 23:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Changed Title Headings

I have changed the title headings as the political and ANC career headings were tautological (ie how is an ANC career not political?). Also created a new heading for views of the Israel/Palestine conflict since this is in itself a separate subject given the significance attached to the issue.Goldsztajn 01:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Why did you delete the information about Kasril's support for suicide bombings and his continual reference to Israelis as Nazis? --Herut 07:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC) Question moved to stand on Israel. Goldsztajn 14:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Quotes by and about

Not sure why this was added to the page, seems superfluous. I'm removing the quote from the Wall Street Journal because it is wrong on two different issues, first Kasrils is not an "official", he is an elected representative, and second one only need think of the current President of France to find 'higher' ranking politicans.--Goldsztajn 01:48, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, the other two quotes should be removed as they are not referenced.--Goldsztajn 01:51, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the WSJ quote is enlightening. Don't see what's wrong with it either. An elected politician can be an official at the same time (say member of the parliament or a party leadership). As for Nicolas Sarkozy he is Roman Catholic. He does have Jewish descent, but that doesn't make him automatically a Jew. Same goes for his F.M. Bernard Kouchner, John Kerry, Madeleine Albright, Benjamin Disraeli or anyone else who practices a faith other than Judaism. Now, if you are thinking of other high ranking Jews, we have of course people like Henry Kissinger or Leon Trotsky, and more recently William Cohen. However, one can make a case that Kasrilis is the highest ranking politician/official today (outside of Israel). Anyhow, I will restore the quote in a few days unless I see further arguments here. Mhym 08:56, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. First, Kasrils is not an official, it is very clear. Second, the problem with the quote is that it is hyperbole, it excludes people who are Jewish by some definitions in order to make a statement which accords more importance to Kasrils than is actually the case. It is very much POV. Hence, removal. Furthermore, I fail to see how these quotes add anything to the information about Kasrils. I'm yet to see this style being applied to any of the other pages dealing with South African politicans.--Goldsztajn 03:16, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I disagree again, on both counts. Ok, one at a time. First, Kasrilis is an Official. He is the Minister of South African Department of Intelligence Services. If a minister is not an official, who is? About Jewishness, any opinion on the subject is POV. Read Who is a Jew? article list of controversies. You can see from the list that WSJ is most likely using the same definition as the great majority of people. Is it still POV? Should WP not have any comments on Jews since they would all be automatically POV? Mhym 06:03, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

You misunderstand the meaning of official. In political affairs an "official" is generally understood to mean a person who is employed to carry out duties; ministers, prime ministers, presidents etc are not referred to as "officials". As you state on the question of Jewishness, "any opinion is POV", which was precisely my point and why I think the WSJ quote is unhelpful and hyperbole. Clearly religious and legal definitions vary (viz. direct matrilineality versus 2nd generation descent), and there is no way to resolve the point. We have very different opinions on this and no resolution will be reached by resorting to deletes and undos. A suggested compromise, if you insist on keeping the quote, would be to incorporate a it as a contested reference. I still think it is uninformative and incorrect. With regard to the other quotes these remain unreferenced and I still see no way in which they add to the article.--Goldsztajn 02:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I am moving the "baby-killers" quote to the section on positions on Israel and placing it in the context of the case launched by the South African Jewish Report with the South African Human Rights Commission.--Goldsztajn 00:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Ronnie Kasrils is noton executive committee of ANC or central committee of SACP ANYMORE

You mention that ronnie Kasrils "has been a member of the National Executive Committee (NEC) of the African National Congress (ANC) since 1987 as well as a member of the Central Committee of the South African Communist Party (SACP) since December 1986"

This is no longer true. He was voted off the NAtional Executive Committee of the ANC in DEcember last year and off the CC of the SACP earlier in the year.

http://www.sabcnews.co.za/politics/the_parties/0,2172,161252,00.html

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/aug2007/mbek-a23.shtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by Herut (talk • contribs) 15:34, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

updated.--Goldsztajn (talk) 23:06, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Ronnie and the Corvette

I moved this section from the article here for discussion.

In 1995, there was some confusion in the popular press and media due to a report that Ronnie Kasrils had bought himself a Chevrolet Corvette sportscar - this was in fact a garbled report of then-Minister of Defense Kasrils considering the eventual purchase of a new fleet of Corvette-class Warships for the South African Navy. This did inspire some amusing cartoons at the time of the reports.

Given WP:BLP need to be very careful here, the material seems to simply be reporting gossip of the time, to my reading is POV and there are no references.--Goldsztajn (talk) 23:10, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Membership in ANC NEC and SACP CC

Note that the CC membership list of the SACP no longer contains Kasrils. Same for the NEC membership list of the ANC. However, I can't find any links or statements on whether Kasrils resigned or was removed from these positions. I assume this happeneded the same time as the resignation from the Ministerial post....any info to source?--Goldsztajn (talk) 00:05, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

It looks like he came off the CC of the SACP in 2007 according to the link above from WSWS, but can't find any info on the NEC (the SABC link is dead).--Goldsztajn (talk) 10:09, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Herut provided this reference [2] for Kasril's 2007 departure from the NEC, I'll add that to the article.--Goldsztajn (talk) 04:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

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