Talk:Rugby union gameplay

Data taken from rugby union article as it was too long and needed its own article.GordyB 20:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Ruck clarification?

First off, excellently written article. Thanks to all who contributed. Watching the current 2007 WRC, I still have a few queries - maybe they're in the article and I missed them, but if not...

• When a player picks up the ball from the rear of a ruck, they're usually careful to have one foot in front of the ball, and one behind. Why is this? Is it simply to make the subsequent pass easier, or is there a rule about this?

No rule, it's just easier.GordyB 23:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

• In the opening France-Argentina game, Argentina kicked the ball into touch, it was caught by a French player (when both he and the ball were out of bounds), who passed it to a team-mate and play continued. There was no whistle or line-out. Why?

You can take a quick line-out if no opponents are in the area. This is what happened.GordyB 23:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

• Who can punt, and when? Could I? Like, right now?

You can punt pretty much any of the time. Off the top of my head I can't think of a situation in open play where you could not punt.GordyB 23:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

• Marking. What's that all about? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.189.69 (talk) 21:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Like a fair catch in American football. You get to make an unopposed catch if you are within your 22 metre line. It's to discourage teams from attacking solely by kicking (since the defenders can defend easily by calling for the mark).GordyB 23:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

A slight clarification for those using American football as a comparison: in American football the catcher signals his intent to make a fair catch and once he's done so it's an offence to tackle him; in rugby (union), the catcher can't call for the fair catch until he's in the act of catching the ball, and he can be tackled while attempting to do so; it's not an unopposed catch and it's only an offence to tackle him after the ref has blown his whistle. Also, until relatively recently it was possible to call for a 'mark' outside one's 22; as I recall, this was the case during the 1987 RWC. - Jimmy Pitt (talk) 19:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up! I should mention that your American football reference went right over my head. I'm a Brit who actually used to play many years ago - as a prop. We forwards did the heavy lifting while the backs minced about and got all the glory. Ah well. Back to the WRC, now I know what's going on! 82.27.242.48 20:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC) (the unsigned above).

Ending a Game

Hi All! Great article, although there is nothing to say how the game ends. I have to explain this to my friends every time the clock hits 80 mins and the game continues. At this point in the game all kicking by the defending team stops, IIRC all penalties are still played except for ones that kill the ball. I did start to write a section on this but abandoned it as I didn't feel it explained the possibilites well enough. Games that ended in this way and are good examples of the rule in force IMO are RWC 2007 Scotland v Italy QF(?) and Canada v Japan. And the RBS Six Nations Scotland V England 2008. (in both the Scottish games Scotland were leading with Italy and England respectively within a converted Try for the win. Italy and England in both games had possession of the ball at the time the clock ran out.) If any once has links to videos of the ends of those games the rule can be seen in action very clearly. (Moncky (talk)) —Preceding comment was added at 07:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Rugby passes

The new article Rugby passes is currently written in a manner that violates WP:NOT#HOWTO. It also appears to rely far too much on direct quotation from its (book) references. Since this article doesn't appear to cover passing, I suggest merging with a considerably shortened and reworded version of the passes article. dramatic (talk) 03:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Feel free to perform the merge whenever you like. – PeeJay 14:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I've never been involved in rugby, and am probably not the best person to do it (I just found the article on new page patrol). dramatic (talk) 19:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree. The article is rather inaccurate as well. You can pass the ball forward, if you are running at speed then it is hard not to. What you can't do is pass forward relative to your own body position.GordyB (talk) 15:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

That's simply not right. A forward pass is one that travels towards the opposition goal line. Sure, mild forward passes get missed all the time (especially in the S14), but its not legal, and every decent player should be able to pass back and run forward. Rugby League has a "momentum" law on forward passes, Rugby Union does not. -- GWO (talk)

Untrue, there is no "momentum rule" in league, the laws are actually the same. Whether a pass is forward or not is measured from the player's release. If it leaves his hands backwards but subsequently travels forwards then it is not a forward pass.GordyB (talk) 10:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

This video explains the laws and physics behind them better than I can. It was made by the ARU. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgMlDy2jP9s GordyB (talk) 10:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Those passes are forward. The commentary on that video even says so. If those pass had happened to cross the half way line -- making it easier for the ref to spot -- you can bet your life that the ref would give it. Just because an offence goes unspotted doesn't mean its within the Laws. The Rugby passes article is correct, and even your evidence confirms this. It also confirms that Aussie refs simply don't care about marginally forward passes, but this isn't news to anyone. The commentary talks about "Relative to the moving players" but that has absolutely no basis in the Laws of Rugby Union. -- GWO (talk)

I am sorry but you are wrong. The laws say that a pass is deemed forward if it leaves the players hands in a forward direction, if it subsequently goes forward then it is still legal. If you watch the video again then you will see that when a player is running at speed he cannot necessarily get the ball to travel backwards even if he throws the ball backwards over his head.GordyB (talk) 13:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

"The laws say that a pass is deemed forward if it leaves the players hands in a forward direction."

They also define what that "forward" means "towards the opposition goal line", and not "relative to the subsequent motion of the players hands" (Law 12, Definition)

"‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.".

The "relative to the hands", with respect to the Laws of Rugby Union, is simply a fiction. The "subsequently goes forward clause" is about a ball that is thrown backwards (relative to the goal line) but lands on the ground and bounces forward (relative to the goal line). Go ask anyone who's done even a basic refereeing qualification. They'll tell you what I said, and what your youtube video said -- "that's forward, but hellish hard to spot".

Incidentally, just to complete your wrongness, you were completely wrong about the Rugby League Law too... See The Laws of Rugby League [1] Section 10, Note 1

The direction of a pass is relative to the player making it and not to the actual path relative to the ground. A player running towards his opponents’ goal line may throw the ball towards a colleague who is behind him but because of the thrower’s own momentum the ball travels forward relative to the ground. This is not a forward pass as the thrower has not passed the ball forward in relation to himself.

Notice the difference? Or do you still deny there's a difference? -- GWO (talk)

There isn't a difference really. The league law is as you said but it is not called the "momentum rule" by anybody other than some commentators who ought to know better. There is even a note on the RFL's laws saying that "this is not a momentum rule". A union pass is deemed legal if you pass the ball legally and then a gust of wind takes it forward. The clause you referred to relates to issues other than merely a bounce.GordyB (talk) 10:22, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

In a nutshell, my point is that the wording of the two laws might be slightly different but they refer to much the same thing. The pass must go backwards or flat initially in both codes.GordyB (talk) 10:55, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

"The pass must go backwards or flat initially in both codes". Yes, but the Union Law says "backwards relative to the dead-ball line" and the League Law says "backwards relative to the passer, not relative to the ground". Which (the attentive reader will note) is exactly what I've consistently said, and which you disputed. Despite your assertions, that's qualitatively not the same. The fact about the wind I gladly concede. If a pass initially goes back (relative to the ground) but is blown forward (relative to the ground), that's legal. -- GWO (talk)

In practice "backwards relative to the dead ball line" is the same as "backwards relative to the passer". If the ref flagged every pass that went forwards, you wouldn't be able to pass at all when running at speed.

By the letter of the law, a scrum feed is supposed to go down the middle of the scrum, in pratice this rarely happens.GordyB (talk) 15:51, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Advantage

The article claims the advantage rule sets Rugby apart from most other sports. A quick google reveals water polo, soccer, league, korfball(!), intercross, AFL and possibly the GAA games to use similar advantage rules. Not exactly set apart. I'm taking it out. 210.9.136.59 (talk) 14:08, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Penalty Try

According to the article, "A little known rule is that if a player touches the referee with the ball, it is seen as infringment [sic] and so a try is awarded." To the best of my knowledge, and my looking through the Laws of the Game, this is not true. As such, I am removing it. If anyone can verify this rule, please feel free to add it back , with a source this time. Draganta (talk) 14:53, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I read that yesterday and it was news to me too, I've never heard of it and had planned on doing a bit more research but I think unless its verified it should stay out until then GainLine ♠♥ 15:26, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Not really correct, and only so if the referee actually obstructed the ball from being grounded. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/international/4805596.stm It's fairly trivial anyway. Swiss09 (talk) 22:52, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Section on Possible alterations to the laws

The section at the end of this article on proposed changes seems to be out of date. The ELvs have been enacted and some of them are being dropped at this stage. I'm proposing that this section be deleted with a link to the ELVs article itself. Input would be welcome. Thanks!

GainLine ^♠_♥ 09:50, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

You're right, that section's pretty out of date and several of the laws are dropped. Not sure if it should be deleted though, I feel it's still relevant to the article and a brief summary would be useful. Might clean it up a tad when I've looked up exactly which laws are in/out. Swiss09 (talk) 22:44, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Article name

This article used to be called "Playing rugby union", which described what the article was about. Without any apparent discussion, someone has renamed it. "Gameplay" is not the same as "playing the game" and, indeed, almost every definition of "gameplay" that I can find relates to computer games, which is misleading in this context. --Jimmy Pitt (talk) 14:53, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Article restructure

I am proposing a complete restructuring of this highly important article. At present it is very disjointed and shows the signs of numerous editors working very hard, but the cohesiveness and flow has been lost. At this level (this is a main article that links directly from Rugby Union and as such is an anchor article for the rugby union subject) readers learning about Rugby may not realise the variations of 15's, sevens, and even Ten a side, so I think a broad view of gameplay is generally needed.

The draft structure (please make suggestions and alterations) I would propose would be something like this.

Preamble: High level overview of game (played on a field, where objective is to score points, timeframe). Short historical perspective.

Objective of game: Score points by tries or goals. Point values could go here.

Field and equipment

Game Structure: (introduction to game structure of the men's elite level 15 a side game to be followed by in depth explanation of each part of the game) Ball is kicked to begin play, receiving team attacks by running (including passing) or by kicking the ball forward. Defending team attempts to stop attack by tackling, or re-taking possession of the ball. General play continues until there is a breakdown, whereby play is resumed by one of numerous setpieces.

Start of play the kickoff

Receiving the ball: Player in possession of the ball, has three options run, pass or kick.

Running with the ball(the is more of less the running game section) players runs with ball in hand until he is tackled or scores a try, leaving out all the nuances of what happens IF he drops the ball, or passes forward, or is offside, or ... (in other words leave infringement discussion till later). The reader is still learning what SHOULD happen in the game.

The tackle

The ruck

The maul

The try

Passing the ball

Kicking the ball

Kick into touch

Drop goal

Marking the ball

The setpiece: explanation of when setpieces are used: restart, boundary infringements, handling infringements. (penalty infringements can involve these setpieces so I propose giving them their own section AFTER this section)

Restart Kicks: kick after score, and kick from 22

Scrum

Line-out

Penalties: Introduction of how penalties are awarded, and the various types: free-kick, penalty and penalty try.

Free-kick and Penalty: Choices available: quick tap, kick for touch (and line-out), scrum, and kick for goal.

Penalty Try

Officiating

Substituting players

Foul Play

Variations each section should detail the main differences to rules and gameplay. Highly nuanced differences belong in a sub article

Sevens rugby

Age variations

Womens (I am not familiar with rules, so am presuming there is some difference to the male game)

I think that this type of structure is far better than the mish mash of what is there now.SauliH (talk) 05:13, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Dubious statement

The article claims that "the majority of progress is made by running to make ground, being tackled,and recycling the ball" (or something similar). This is a common way of gaining territory, but there are many others (making line breaks, kicking to touch, kicking for other players to chase, rolling mauls, and probably a few more I can't think of at the moment). Territory can even be gained when you don't have the ball if strong tackling keeps the opposition behind the gain line. Surely it depends on the team how they attack? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.6.96.22 (talk) 15:29, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Penalties Summary

I just watched my first rugby match (as an adult) and was confused about the various penalties given. I would have liked to see a penalties summary section here, assuming this is possible. For example, the article doesn't mention "Knock ons" and that was a common reason for stoppage in the game I watched. Perhaps that isn't a penalty per se, and the section could be "penalties and play stoppages".

Rugby union laws

I would like to split this into two articles. One about the laws of the game and the other about gameplay. There will be some overlap, but I see the gameplay article describing how the game is played in a user friendly way, while the laws will get more into the technical details. AIRcorn (talk) 11:59, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Done here Rugby union laws AIRcorn (talk) 13:52, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Article Restructure revisted

User:SauliH initiated this over a year ago and has created a rough outline at Talk:Rugby union gameplay/Sandbox. He has been inactive over the past few months and I would like to get something done for the World Cup. To fit in with the recently created Rugby union laws I propose to make this article focused on gameplay. It builds on SauliH's but cuts out the laws when possible. I see the following sections:

Objective

See also to laws, pretty much a copy paste of that section with a few tweaks.

Running

Compare smash and bash styles with guile and speed, step, swerve, goose step, hit and spin, low drive

Passing

Describe different types of passes; draw and pass, dummy, skip, spiral, flick, dive, pop, double around, cuts, switching

Kicking

Clearing (touch or downfield), box, bomb, chip, grubber, crossfield, drop goal, place kicks

Tackle

Ball and all vs around the legs. Objectives for tackler (getting the ball) and tackled player (recycling the ball, staying on feet until support arrives)

Ruck

Pick and go, counter rucking, slowing play (both teams)

Maul

Rolling maul, ripping the ball free, preventing the ball from coming free

Scrum

Promoting a side, disrupting opposition ball, stabilising you own ball, 8-9-10, 8 off the back

Lineout

Deflection, drive, competing for the ball, not-competing and facing opposition, throwing to front or back, quick lineout, short lineout

Please add anything else I may have missed. AIRcorn (talk) 23:46, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Back for a short visit after a break, and nice to see the work done on this page. Great work! SauliH (talk) 14:13, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Scoring

Although there is a section on "Objectives", the concept of a try is rather buried inside the text.

I think that this article needs a section on "Scoring" which includes clear, itemised descriptions of tries, conversions, and penalties.

However, I don't feel qualified to write it!

Macboff (talk) 19:27, 4 March 2012 (UTC)