Talk:Sada Abe

Biography assessment rating comment

WikiProject Biography Assessment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 01:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Did Abe die in 1969?

I found a blog post [1] (I know they are not reliable sources) which claims Sada Abe died at the age of 64. Anybody able to confim or deny that? --DaKine 21:11, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

BLP

The rape allegations are a WP:BLP violation, IMO, and if they are restored again it will be reported to the BLP noticeboard. This is a living person who is not a public figure and I can see no reason to claim here that she was raped at 14. Even if true it doesnt help the biography and could very much be seen as an attack on the subject of the article, SqueakBox 22:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The information is apparently correctly sourced. I've restored it, but extra opinions from WP:BLPN might not be a bad idea. Videmus Omnia ^Talk 22:28, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I have reported it at the blp noticeboard. We arent here to out rape victims and this is as clear a BLP violation as I haver zseen. restoring dubious BLP material may lead to a block as BLP is an important policy and we should defend the privacy of rape victims, SqueakBox 22:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying the reported information is not from a reliable source? Videmus Omnia ^Talk 22:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

SqueakBox, um ... there must be a polite way to ask this, and forgive me if I haven't found it ... have you read the article in question?

1. It's rather doubtful she's a living person, since she was born in 1905, but let's grant that
2. She certainly is a public figure, if "The story became a national sensation in Japan, developing mythic overtones, and has since been interpreted by artists, philosophers, novelists and filmmakers.[1]" is true. 3 movies about her life: if that's not a public figure, nothing is.
3. Her notability comes from "erotically asphyxiating her lover, Kichizo Ishida and then cutting off his penis and testicles on May 18, 1936, and carrying them around with her in her handbag." And you aren't objecting to this, but you are objecting to a mention of a rape, based on her own words, and backed by a published book? I mean, yes, for most people being raped would be the biggest most controversial issue in their lives ... but I think her main item of notability clearly qualifies as more controversial. By a long shot.
4. Doesn't help the biography? Hmm, whether or not someone famous for a horrendous sex crime was raped as a young girl, would that have any effect on their main notability, would it be important? I'd have to say yes, it would be rather blatantly important.
5. Yes, we have to source it, but that's been done, unless you choose to question the sourcing. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 22:40, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Just to interject here-- The quote from the book is not just from any old interview with Sada Abe (which would seem to me to be sufficient in itself), but from a full transcription of a police interrogation of Sada Abe. If that's not acceptable as evidence... what is? (By the way, the book has some droll, amusing comments from Donald Richie who met Abe at her club in 1969... it's going to provide some interesting material for the article.) Dekkappai 23:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

We should certainly assume she is alive as plenty of people are at that age. The real question begs why are we categorising her as a rape victim? and regardless of the reliability of the source is this not an intrusion on her privacy? and thus a BLP vio. The cat was speedied as a BLP nightmare and then, wrongly IMO, reionstated by another user. It is a BLP nightmare and therefore we should not use it for living people, its the cat I really object to and on BLP grounds, SqueakBox 23:11, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Umm, because she claimed to be a rape victim? Videmus Omnia ^Talk 23:13, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

That is no reason to have it in her article here, and esp as a cat, SqueakBox 23:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflicts) Because, according to testimony given by Abe herself to the police, she is a rape victim, and because Wikipedia has a Category:Rape victims. If that category is deleted, it should be deleted here. If not, since she was a rape victim, she should be in that category. What's to misunderstand here? Dekkappai 23:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Let's put the category business aside here, I at least am doing my best to assume you're not just doing this to make a point about Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_July_23#Category:Rape_victims. We're writing that she was raped because it's an important fact to our article, irreplaceable, even. Is that part accepted? If so, we can leave the category business to the Cfd discussion - if it gets deleted, that settles that, if it doesn't, that also settles that.--AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 23:17, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons does not mean we can't publish anything bad about anyone, it merely means that we need to source it impeccably. This is cited to a book published by a university-affiliated scholarly press, an academic source, the best kind according to Wikipedia:Verifiability. It meets WP:BLP. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 23:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

This isnt something bad. Something bad is her cutting off her lover's penis and I dont object to including that, being a rape victim is soemthing else. In the UK and elsewhere there are laws to protect the identity of rape victims, this wasnt her fault and hence it shouldnt be included because it is a provacy intrusion, and thae category is the essenjce of this BLP vio, leave the impeccably sourced rape in the text is okay but to put a living person in the rape victims cat is not okay, SqueakBox 23:24, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like an issue for WP:CFD, not this particular article. Videmus Omnia ^Talk 23:28, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Its a BLP issue in this case. There may be legitimate uses of the cat (eg its in some Roman bio which is okay as it doesnt hurt anyone) so I would argue its case by case and thus does involve this article. Im may try to change the cat to ionly include dead people (its being talked about on the cat talk) but amw aiting for the cfd, SqueakBox 23:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, one step at a time. We have agreement to put in the text. Hurrah! Let's let the CFD discussion decide on the cat. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 23:34, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Good the 2 squeaks can agree on some things! SqueakBox 23:45, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

sex

sex is a universal habit in animals and humans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.65.157.18 (talk) 05:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

But not killing one's sexual partner afterwards. That is a behaviour limited to humans, certain species of insects, arachnids, crustaceans and molluscs. Nuttyskin (talk) 01:33, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Sexual perversion charge?

Jack Seward makes the following claim [2]:

In the end, Sada was charged with murder and corpse mutilation and was brought to trial. She admitted to these charges but when she learned she was charged with sexual perversion, she got pissed. She didnt like that she was charged for being a hentai-seiyokusha (a sex pervert) she was only a ijo-seiyokusha (an oversexed person) so she took advantage of her right to legal counsel.

So, like, the court decided she wasn't a perv just oversexed and she was happy about tht and admitted her guilt to the other charges of murder and corpse mutilation and was given a sentence of only 6 years in prison!

(Note: the above is the blog author's text, not Seward's original.)

I've heard variation of this ever since, but the Japanese version just notes that 「世間から変態、変態と言われるのが辛い」と逮捕直後からもらしている。, without specifying any charges, and a Japanese search for 変体性欲者 or 以上性欲者 didn't come up with anything. There's a login-required link on MUSE about the case [3], can somebody access it? Jpatokal (talk) 10:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I remember reading about the perversion charge in the Johnston book. He probably just repeats the version that is most common-- but I'll take a look into it later. Certainly, if anyone has access to the Japanese sources (I believe transcripts of the trial were published), that would be the source to cite. Dekkappai (talk) 16:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Dates of birth and death

I've applied the standard in WP:DATE, with dates based on Japanese Wikipedia article. The Japanese reads "current whereabouts unknown", but Sada Abe would be 103 if she is alive today, and it is likely she is dead; the English "death date unknown" is standard for Wikipedia, and vague enough to allow the narrow chance she remains alive. -Yamara ✉ 13:07, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Yamara. We will need a better source for her birthdate than Japanese Wikipedia, but I don't doubt there's one out there. I've found that Japanese Wikipedia is usually accurate, but just not as strict with sourcing as English Wiki. As for her death, indications are she died sometime in the 1980s. I see someone has removed a bit that was left over from before I started working on the article-- I couldn't find a source for it-- but I'm pretty sure one of my sources does mention the 1980s death theory, and I'll add that later. Dekkappai (talk) 18:22, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I have no other source beyond the Japanese Wikipedia for the birth date. If you do restore the death date with a cite, but if it is still vague as to which year, the proper form would be "c. 1987" (the likeliest or last possible year) not "198?" (question marks are to be avoided, as per WP:DATE). Hope this helps. Cheers, Yamara ✉ 01:19, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I searched the English sources and couldn't find a birth date, but I'll check Japanese sources... as long as the 2Channelers don't prohibit translation of info on Sada into English as "insulting to the motherland" :-( The "198?" was added by an anon, I think, and it's not the right way to do this. By the way, here is an interesting YouTube link. I don't have sound here, but it appears to be a short interview with Sada at the age of 63: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymm0tdIppb0 Dekkappai (talk) 00:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The text covering her later life should also include some mention of her (presumable) death, even if it is something on the lines of "Her death appears to have gone unrecorded" or "unnoted", depending on just what is and is not known. --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 14:16, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Do we know that Abe hoped for the death penalty simply because she said that she did

In the article it says, "Though the prosecution demanded ten years, and she was hoping for the death penalty..." It isn't unusual for people in desperate circumstances to claim that they actually seek the outcome, which fate appears to be sending their way regardless. It isn't difficult to understand the psychology behind such claims. Still, saying it, is not the same as it being true. For that reason, some time back, I changed the sentence to indicate that that Abe "...claimed to hope..." that was reverted for bad phrasing. Fair enough, it was badly phrased, but I still feel that Abe's hope that she would receive the death penalty should not merely be stated as fact - especially when she failed to remedy the failure of the court to deliver such a penalty either while in jail, or subsequently when enjoying her celebrity.

I have now made a similar change but hopefully, phrased more clearly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.233.172 (talk) 14:21, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Introduction unclear

The introduction reads:

[...] is remembered in Japan for erotically asphyxiating her lover, [...], and then cutting off his penis and testicles [...]

This suggests that she killed her lover through the asphyxiation in an erotic play, although the text is not clear that this was the cause of his death or whether we have to assume an passionate "accident", a murder, mental confusion, all together, or something else, or whether this is ultimately known at all. The article later reports that she strangled her lover in his sleep, which I doubt should be described as "erotically asphyxiating", even if that practice was part of their prior sexual encounters.

Could someone more familiar with the topic find a wording that addresses these issues, is clearer and more consistent? Ebab 18:14, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm skeptical

Two comments: 1) This article seems quite long and detailed for such a relatively unimportant biography. 2) The photo is hardly credible, and casts doubt on the article itself. Would somebody being arrested and the arresting officers really be broadly smiling like that? 174.21.114.175 (talk) 10:06, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

the picture should read shortly before not shortly after —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.218.128.159 (talk) 03:03, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

May 20 / May 21

User:Chrisdbrowndotnet has twice, without explanation, changed the caption to the arrest photo from May 20 to May 21. I see a few websites that say she was arrested May 21, but none of these seems anywhere near as reliable as the source we use: Johnston, William (2005). Geisha, Harlot, Strangler, Star: A Woman, Sex, and Morality in Modern Japan. New York: Columbia University Press. ISBN 0-231-13052-X.. I don't have the book in front of me, but a Google books search shows that Johnston repeatedly names the arrest as May 20, with most of the newspaper reports on the arrest coming out on the morning of May 21. Most important, he captions the photo in question with May 20:

• p.12: "Newspapers on May 21 reported her arrest the day before..."
• p.13: FIGURE 1. Abe Sada immediately following her arrest, surrounded by police officers at Takanawa Police Station in Tokyo, May 20, 1936. Photo: The Mainichi Newspapers.
• p.113: "Some of the stories-- obviously written before her arrest the previous afternoon-- in the morning papers on May 21 still pondered Abe's whereabouts"
• p.115 FIGURE 7. A crowd gathered outside the Ogu police station at the word of Abe Sada's arrest, May 20, 1936. Photo: The Mainichi Newspapers

Johnston quite clearly and repeatedly places the arrest as May 20, so, unless there is better sourcing which gives May 21, I am changing it back. . Dekkappai (talk) 19:35, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

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Sources???

Yes, there are multiple references listed. But the bulk of this article's content seems to be cribbed primarily from two books on the subject (Johnston and Marran) plus a few references from a third (Schreiber). It would take dedication from a knowledgeable editor, but to make this article wiki-worthy it should be revised with multiple perspectives and rewritten so as not to rehash the views of just a couple books. Brhiba (talk) 17:04, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Added "Japanese name" template

Since the name 'Sada Abe' and 'Abe Sada' appear more than 25 times written in both ways in the article, I chose to add the template to avoid confusion with the name. Agente Rolf (talk) 07:34, 26 March 2019 (UTC)