Talk:SailRail

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Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 14:45, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Created by Ritchie333 (talk). Self-nominated at 23:39, 14 November 2022 (UTC).[reply]

  • New enough and long enough. Sources inline look reliable enough for what they're citing. Verified the hook citation to the best of my ability (not familiar with UK rail transport, but looks fine). Earwig is clean. QPQ done. Looks like it should be good to go. Hog Farm Talk 03:27, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Ritchie333 and Hog Farm: Forgive me, but I'm a little lost on the scope of the topic. Is SailRail the common name of the ticket? The name of the company that distributes them? Or is it multiple companies that sell this type of ticket? If it's a single organization or similar, I'm wondering if the hook and article are a little promotional... theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 18:56, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'd assumed when reading the article that it was a single ticket made through an arrangement between several different companies. Hog Farm Talk 19:08, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's a type of ticket, that you can buy from any British station; you can use any train service or ferry you choose with it, provided it's relevant. Similar to a Travelcard. The only possible way this article could be promoting it is comparing it against flying. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 23:19, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm a little concerned that "SailRail" isn't actually what it's called. Looking through the sources, I see "SailRail", "Sail-Rail", "Sail Rail", "Rail / Sail", "Sail and Rail" and "Sail & Rail". We don't want to be taking a generic descriptive term and elevating one version of it as the officially wiki-sanctioned version. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:31, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think "SailRail" is the formal term, as that's what gets printed on the ticket, and what I think the common name should be. The fact that multiple sources refer to it slightly differently is an indication of its relative obscurity, which is why we haven't had an article on it until now. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:05, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We really need something more concrete than "I think that's the formal term". Lots of things get printed on tickets, that doesn't make the ticket a WP:RS. Also, how is it being relatively obscure different from it being not notable?
@Ritchie333: Having thought about this more (and cogitated a bit on WP:COMMONNAME), let me propose that using SailRail as the article title and in the hook would be fine, as long as you add something to the article explaining that it's a generic term covering a number of similar services known by various similar names. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:33, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just seen the discussion on this at Talk. I have access to specialist sources and may be able to assist. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 13:19, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Theleekycauldron, Hog Farm, and RoySmith: Various additions/tweaks now made following on from the discussion at T:T/DYK, particularly by clarifying that SailRail is the brand used between Britain and Ireland and that other similar schemes are not directly linked. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 15:25, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A promotional hook would be something like "Go far beyond your usual stop with a Rail and Sail ticket. Head for the wilderness of the Outer Hebrides, the history of Shetland or the buzz of Belfast – that one ticket holds the key to countless adventures." which is how the ScotRail website describe it. If you mean I want to "promote" SailRail in as much as I want more people to use it, showing it's a viable alternative for sitting in an uncomfortable departure lounge for 3 hours before being told your flight is 2 hours late ..... then I guess so. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:04, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by starship.paint (exalt)

  • The source quoted in this DYK nomination should be put inline within the article.
    Resolved by Mike1901. starship.paint (exalt)
  • Article says: The ticket is a joint scheme between Transport for Wales Rail, Iarnród Éireann, Irish Ferries, Stena Line, Northern Ireland Railways and ScotRail. Source says: SailRail is an alliance of Iarnród Éireann, UK Train Operating Companies and Ferry Companies operating on the Irish Sea. Article seems to go further than the source.
I don't think it's particularly original research to enumerate the specific train and ferry companies. Are you concerned that somebody might challenge that Irish Ferries and Stena Line run Holyhead - Dublin services? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:34, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Right, OK. starship.paint (exalt)
  • Article says: Unlike some international train routes, they are not connecting services. Don't think the bolded part is in the source.
  • Article says: SailRail competes against budget airlines - don't think that is in the Belfast Telegraph source.
I can't see a Belfast Telegraph source in the article Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:34, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It was replaced by Mike1901 by the time you looked at it. starship.paint (exalt)
  • Article says: ... following the 2010 eruptions of Eyjafjallajökull which grounded all European flights. Virgin Trains increased their London to Holyhead trains from five to ten cars in response. Don't think the source really says that Eyjafjallajökull was the specific cause, source just says Indeed, not so long ago just five cars of the 09:10 from Euston went all the way to Holyhead; now Virgin Trains send the whole 10-car train. - may have been due to general increased demand.
It was definitely the Eyjafjallajökull eruption; for example see this BBC source which states "Train services between Scotland and the south of England are also reporting a big rise in passenger numbers, as are cross-channel ferry companies." Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:34, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Mike1901 provided a better source, so this is resolved. starship.paint (exalt)
  • Article says: Historically, SailRail (then known as BritRail) tickets - I'm not convinced that BritRail is SailRail. Source says: Stena SeaLink and BritRail offer rail travel to New Haven, ship passage to Dieppe, then a train to Paris. [...] BritRail service to Dover, a ship to Calais, a train to Paris. Presence of Stena SeaLink seems to indicate that BritRail is really just for the train ride.
Resolved by Mike1901. starship.paint (exalt)
  • Article says" The Dover to Calais scheme was discontinued following the opening of the Channel Tunnel in 1994, though it is still possible to travel as a foot passenger. I really don't think this is backed up by the source, which says: The railway stations at Dover Western Docks and Calais Maritime closed when Eurostar started in 1994, so you can no longer simply walk off the train and onto the ferry as you used to. The journey now involves a taxi or long walk between the station and the ferry terminal in Dover and a bus or taxi in Calais, so a train-ferry-train journey that took only 7 or 8 hours in the 1930s (or for that matter, the 1980s) takes 11 hours today. You need to buy separate tickets for the British train, ferry & French train, because London to Paris through tickets ceased to exist in 2007.
I'm not sure what the concern is here; however this can be "verified" by some extent by going to Dover or Calais and trying to get on a foot ferry! Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:34, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I can't figure out what my original concern was. Perhaps I was mistaken. starship.paint (exalt)
  • Don't have access to Journal of the Transport Ticket Society so I'll just AGF.

@Ritchie333: - see above. Also as a courtesy - notify Hassocks5489. starship.paint (exalt) 14:11, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

- right now, based on the above. Please ping me if there is any update. starship.paint (exalt) 14:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If the above are addressed, and I haven't replied, any other reviewer may step in. starship.paint (exalt) 14:04, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ritchie333: status report? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 23:29, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
theleekycauldron, Ritchie333 suffered an elbow fracture at the beginning of this month, so it may be a while before a status report is feasible. Please see User talk:Ritchie333#Inactive for what information is available. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:18, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Totally missed that, my bad! We'll let this one linger :) theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 23:20, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've had a go at these corrections theleekycauldron/Starship.paint (hopefully you don't mind Ritchie333!) - I disagree with the foot passenger point (it is still reasonably straightforward to connect at both ends if you're not in a hurry, so it's compatible with the source) but agree with, and have taken measures to correct, all of the remainder. Mike1901 (talk) 16:30, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm now away for a week but intend to help further with this if possible when I'm back, if the nom can be kept open until then. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 19:16, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Mike1901: - thanks, I have been busy over the last few days, but I can take a look sometime between now and the weekend. starship.paint (exalt) 00:38, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- building on from Hog Farm's review, all issues addressed. Hook is OK. I'm not able to access Journal of the Transport Ticket Society, which explains the rating. Hassocks5489 and Mike1901 should also be credited with the DYK. starship.paint (exalt) 08:18, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just to say thanks to all who have contributed to and reviewed this, now that I'm back from holiday, and sorry I couldn't contribute further during the last couple of weeks. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 11:46, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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