Talk:Saint Seiya

Saint Seiya characters

Is there anyone in Saint Seiya who can fly and/or has superhuman strength? I am asking this so I can add them within these categories: Category:Anime and manga characters who can fly/Category:Anime and manga characters with superhuman strength. ~I'm anonymous

The angels from the Tenkai-hen film can legitimately fly and actually have wings. Many of the other characters end up in the air a lot, but they don't actually have wings. I think the 5 main bronze saints can also fly when they get their God cloths, but do not take my word for that one, as I haven't actually read that far. Also, most of the characters tend to have pretty huge strength, but this is, I believe, due to their Saint training. I'm not sure if it's superhuman, as they don't usually uproot buildings or anything... Hope that helps. Aurora Execution (talk) 01:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Too much minor character files and lack of important files!!!

In my opinion we are giving article to a lot of minor characters like wolf Nachi, Lionet Ban, Troll Iwan and may others. Note that this characters fight only once (most of them) and some only appear in one chapter or episode of manga, even Ban once said "Finally my first line!" in the 12 temple saga. We could merge some to Minor spectres and minor saints and then create artcle for more important characters of other mangas like some titans, Bennu Kagaho or create an article for Tenma explaining NDIM and LOSTC. Tintor2 10:50, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

You used the wrong discussion page for this. But i really don't see the point of removing the articles. And if you want to do the Titans pages then go ahead. But you would have to use another character page since they are in the non-canon universe. Besides the Titans already have bio's in their Episode G article. And Tenma has one in the Next Dimension article. So there's no need for articles concerning them as of yet.--Refuteku (talk) 19:32, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, Ill remove that thing, but it doesnt bother having more than 70 articles for characters that only appear once? And its Lost Canvas canon?

Tintor2 17:50, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Lost Canvas isn't canon, no. --Refuteku (talk) 21:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I can write the Cosmo, armors and concepts articles. I dont think it would be a good idea to merge the minor Saints and Specters, because after some time those files get deleted, like it happened recently with the minor Specters. Onikiri 22:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Those characters were deleted because they were terribly minor. Now there is no need to create concepts articles. Even by themselves, the minor characters wouldnt pass the Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) even if we look like a lot for reception. My idea is to leave articles to main characters (check YuYu Hakusho, Naruto, etc) the episode g characters info may need to be merged in the original articles to keep a good length without adding fancruft. Minor characters can be merged in the lists of characters of create a list of villains. If those minor characters appear only for one episode or they dont have importance, they can be deleted without problems.Tintor2 (talk) 18:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

And about what I said last November of creating articles to titans, I retract (I was a rookie in that time). We wouldnt also find reception for that and the list of epg characters doesnt seem to lack things.Tintor2 (talk) 18:51, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

-Neccesary improvements (everybody read)

• Create an article with all info like cosmo, armors and concepts. (specially to clean the main page)
• Create a media section with the soundtracks and videogames (specially to clean the main page)
• Merge minor saints in an article like list of characters or minor saints.
• Merge minor spectres in an article like list of minor spectres, etc.

REASON: We are giving articles to a lot of characters that appear once(or even couldnt say their names). This is not a saint seiya fan site. The ones that will have their own articles are Athena, the 5 bronze, the 14 gold and some gods. Please, reason before answering me or check other anime articles. Tintor2 13:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Themes in Saint Seiya

The whole series has constantly themes such as friendship, responsibility, justice and self sacrifice (to mention a few), should this be mentioned in the article? (or is this considered "original research"?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.180.142.4 (talk) 23:01, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, the themes are pretty obvious and most fans would agree on these qualities. But how do you cite that? I don't think any anime critic will write an article on it any time soon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.126.77.81 (talk) 06:54, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Things to do!

I'm just doing this list so if anyone feel they can contribute, they can see what needs to be done here.

• The novel, Gigantomachia needs an article for itself.
• Almost all articles need more references.
• Deal with the Character articles for what to keep, but discuss that in the character list discussion!
• Movie 4 and 5 Needs articles.
• Movie 2 and 3 articles needs to be finished.
• A Media article containing the Music, Side stories, Toys and whatever else that doesn't need their own article. (I'm gonna start on this) --Refuteku (talk) 18:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Add:

• Body armor seems to break Wikipedia:Fancruft. It requires clean up.

We should use these and these articles as examples. I will help here too. Cheers--Tintor2 (talk) 19:16, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Refuteku, Gigantomachia may not require an article for itself, a section is enough.--Tintor2 (talk) 19:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Wrong wrong and wrong. Refuteku, your attempt at breaking out the media section was wholly inappropriate, in total violation of the Anime and manga MoS and has been undone. The novel does not need its own article at all, it just needs one properly written section. None of the movies need standalone articles either and should be merged back here, nor do the individual manga series. AnmaFinotera (talk) 20:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I guess that with the merges the characters lists would also be merged, wouldnt they? Also, Im sure that Im not the only one to note there are 100 character article that only guide themsleves by the canon of the original manga. I guess many of those should also be merged.--Tintor2 (talk) 00:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh my sweet lordy....yes those individual article do indeed to be merged. I'd also say yes, the various individual character lists should be merged into one nice, cleaned up one. AnmaFinotera (talk) 00:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

He he, at least let me clean the main characters and some gold saints with big notability to avoid their merge (some gold saints have big participances in manga prequels). I hope that this main character I have been cleaning may pass notability.--Tintor2 (talk) 00:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

What about the lists of manga chapters?--Tintor2 (talk) 01:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd say clean up the main to remove the arc split, then merge in the individual ones into separate sections within the main. If it gets too long, then they can be more properly split similar to List of Naruto manga volumes rather than their being all over the place like they are now. AnmaFinotera (talk) 01:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The one of Saint Seiya Next Dimension may be complicated since it doesnt even have a volume. Also, List of Saint Seiya episodes contains the 114 episodes and the 31 OVAs. Shouldnt it be splited?--Tintor2 (talk) 01:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

First needs some cleaning to remove the arc stuff, fix formatting for consistency, and get the themes into prose into the lead. Then, yes, probably a split would probably be good there. AnmaFinotera (talk) 01:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I do hope you realize that by merging the other series into the main article editing hell will break loose with people trying to edit the character Bio's as they see fit. Anyhow, *quits wikipedia* —Preceding unsigned comment added by Refuteku (talk • contribs) 02:17, April 30, 2008

Hmmm? How so. People will do that anyway, that's why its up to other editors to source, monitor, and revert silly changes. Lord knows some of the active running series characters are getting changed multiple times a day. Its part of the work of an editor who isn't just doing a passby, keeping an eye on the page after its improved to keep those who don't know about guidelines, policies, etc from getting happy on the pages. AnmaFinotera (talk) 14:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I can immagine a list of the character if the original manga removing the one-episode characters. But it might be confusing for other manga. For example there is a character called tenma with two different stories and characteristics in both lost canvas and next dimension. But see this: "In The Next Dimension Tenma's name has the kanji of Pegasus/Celestial Horse (天馬, Pegasus/Celestial Horse?); In The Lost Canvas Tenma's name is only in katakana."

I guess they should be called Tenma (Next Dimension) and Tenma (Lost Canvas) in the lists. But what about the movie and novel characters?--Tintor2 (talk) 14:13, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Might I suggest the movies be merged into one page, along the lines of Urusei Yatsura (film series)? 208.245.87.2 (talk) 18:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

They don't really even need that (and there already is such a page, its in the list of merges). AnmaFinotera (talk) 18:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

You're right, I missed that... well then, there's a lot of information to merge in there. I'll leave it to somebody else, I don't do content anymore. 208.245.87.2 (talk) 13:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

There's just one problem i have with all this merging. Alot of information will just disappear. This is an encyclopedia right? Not an introduction guide to the things in the world with a title.

I've looked over the existing movie pages - I think most of that can be merged. The plot and notes/trivia can easily fit under the subsection of each movie. The new characters... eh. I'm mostly anti-deletionist, perhaps you could have a Characters of Sait Seiya Movies or something, IF you have enough there to warrant such an article. 208.245.87.2 (talk) 13:43, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

And yeah mashing all of the character lists together will cause great confusion since the difference between Episode G, The Lost Canvas and the Anime to the original manga and Next Dimension is very great. --Refuteku (talk) 19:20, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The only information that will disappear is stuff that never belonged in the first place. It is an encyclopedia, yes, which means it is a general overview of the topic, not an in-depth guide. AnmaFinotera (talk) 19:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Yet the Saint Seiya franchise has more then 1 important medium, and putting them together will be too large by standard rules for articles. --Refuteku (talk) 10:13, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

There are no rules that say information can't be broken out into its own article, if there is enough well-sourced content to justify it (quite the contrary, see WP:SPINOUT). And keep in mind that this is Wikipedia, so everything can be reversed. —Dinoguy1000 16:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Other larger franchises are able to be covered in a single article for the main information, with appropriate spinouts as needed for episode lists, chapter lists, character lists, etc. The merges first get everything back together where it belongs. Done well and properly, the main article will be fine. AnmaFinotera (talk) 16:31, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

What I wonder is that if can show a manga cover of episode.g and Lost Canvas to show the different artwork. Also, show the plot intro of those series, which are protagonized by different characters. I agree with the merge series, but can we wait a bit for the characters? I can clean the main characters can be cleaned but just now Im busy with the Rurouni Kenshin characters ones. However, some characters can be taken afd since they are "one-episode guys".--Tintor2 (talk) 17:29, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

We can look at the covers, though I'd think they might be best served in the chapter list. For now, I'd like to concentrate on the main article first, then tackling the rest, as the results of what happens here will affect the subs. :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 17:50, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Episode G vs Episode.G

As far as I have been searching in ANN and the official publisher the series name is Saint Seiya Episode.G (聖闘士星矢EPISODE.G) and not Saint Seiya Episode G, so I guess the we need to add the dot to the series title. Thoughts?--Tintor2 (talk) 18:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

The infobox had the period before my cleanup, but I removed it because the article doesn't have the period. If sources show the official title with the period, though, it should be changed accordingly. —Dinoguy1000 18:13, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I would show it to you in the akita shoten page, but the url of that page never changes, if not enter in publication search and type 聖闘士星矢EPISODE.G Anime News Network also uses the dot but it seems non of us realized that before.--Tintor2 (talk) 18:22, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Could we make the move? (I offer myself to do it)--Tintor2 (talk) 19:23, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Now that I look closer, I only see the Japanese title using the dot. Are you sure the official English title also uses it? —Dinoguy1000 20:43, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

See the ANN article.--Tintor2 (talk) 20:46, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I added the 聖闘士星矢EPISODE.G to the article a few months ago.--Tintor2 (talk) 20:49, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

So?--Tintor2 (talk) 20:41, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Seems good to me. AnmaFinotera (talk) 20:42, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

No complaints here... —Dinoguy1000 22:47, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Category placement

The Saint Seiya article should be in the Martial Arts Manga and Anime Caterogy —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boshibaro (talk • contribs) 23:28, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Is martial arts a significant enough theme of Saint Seiya that it should be in the martial arts genre? (I honestly don't know, having never watched or read any of the series) —Dinoguy1000 17:19, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I would say so, but don't just take my word for it:

• "Whereas Robotech had gorgeous dogfights in space, Saint Seiya is a love song of martial arts and special attacks." (DVD Verdict)
• "[Saint Seiya]'s blend of wild, faux martial arts action, Jack Kirby-esque cosmic drama, and manly male bonding appealed to the American anime fan..." (Anime Jump)
• "...the Knights of Athena draw upon their amazing martial arts skills as well as their mystical powers..." (DIC Entertainment)

So if there are no objections, I, too, would like to place Saint Seiya in Category:Martial arts anime and manga.--Nohansen (talk) 04:54, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm... no objection here, then. —Dinoguy1000 17:15, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Saint Seiya films article for deletion discussion

Hi, I've been working on cleaning up the spelling and grammar of the English language Saint Seiya wikipedia articles. I've noticed that the saint seiya films article has been suggested for deletion because it's supposedly redundant and all the information in the article is supposedly already covered. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

Out of the five films in the article, only three have their own individual articles. The other two would disapper if the general films article is removed. I have no issue with deleting the films article, but ONLY AFTER the last two films have their own articles. I don't want to take down the deletion banner without discussing this first, since it says not to put the deletion banner back up if it's taken down. However, if someone makes articles for the second two films, I have no issue with deleting the general films article then.

However, from some of the comments in some above discussions, there is also someone saying that the individual film articles are not required, and they should be merged into the general films article. The issue here is that we should probably only keep one of the two. Either we have five separate film articles and no general film article, or one longer general film article with no separate articles. That will clean it up a lot.

Also, if no one responds before the time is up on the suggestion for deletion timer, I will take down the deletion banner and leave my explanation. However, if anyone manages to get either the five separate articles, or improves the current main article, they can definitely delete whatever articles are truly redundant after that.

Aurora Execution (talk) 21:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Lots of characters need to be merged or simply redirected. Some, instead of using ref use book as sources. There is an article for every minor character that appears for 3 seconds and its full of Original research. Most incredible is that the article overuse the word canon and only give article to canon characters. The last time I tried to redirect some characters they were reverted.Tintor2 (talk) 21:10, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

U.S. logo

Why shouldn't it be removed, and what does it have to do with reception (since generally, images should be used to illustrate some point in the accompanying text, and this one is in the reception section)? —Dinoguy1000 16:41, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Sources and conception

I added a short conception to the article but the source, which was given by another user, still needs some things such as the publisher. Also, does anybody know where is an interview with Kurumada?Tintor2 (talk) 17:55, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

live movie

somebody should create a section for the in-development live movie. more infos here http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1273232/

there's a partial list of the crew and some other miscellaneous infos —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thenormal (talk • contribs) 17:49, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

We'll wait for another source then imdb to announce that a movie is in production. --Refuteku (talk) 15:06, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

The entry in imdb was a prank. Ignore it. Focus on sources you can check, and I am not talking about just internet sources. ACTUAL SOURCES you can hold in your hand!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.18.170.59 (talk) 21:53, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

The IMDB page has also been deleted, so it doesn't matter anymore.--Refuteku (talk) 19:53, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Low Importance? NEVER

Saint Seiya was a great success in some countries of Western Europe, South America and Eastern Asia. Saint Seiya was also a revolution for the Yoroi mahō shōnen anime. Saint Seiya inspired many authors. Ex:

• Hajime Yatate's Yoroiden Samurai Troopers
• Hiroshi Kawamoto's Tenkū Senki Shurato
• Yoshihiro Togashi's Yū Yū Hakusho
• Tite Kubo's BLEACH
• CLAMP's Magic Knight Rayearth

Saint Seiya isn't "Low-importance anime and manga article". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.7.222.206 (talk) 19:16, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

You can always ask for the article to be reassessed at WP:ANIME/ASSESS. However, you will need to show evidence that the series has achieved wide commercial success or critically acclaimed outside of Japan. At the moment, the article is week on such evidence. --Farix (Talk) 00:53, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Also keep in mind that, ultimately, the importance rating is only a reflection of the importance of this article to WikiProject Anime and manga; it shouldn't be interpreted as a statement of the series' importance in any other context (even though we use other such contexts to assign importance in the first place). 「ダイノガイ千？！」^{? · Talk⇒Dinoguy1000} 16:51, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Techniques article

I was thinking that it would be a good idea to create an article that includes all the characters' techniques in Saint Seiya. The article would include all the techniques in Kurumada's original manga, Episode G and Lost Canvas. And a short description, also the names in japanese and translations, kanji, kana, etc. The article would be useful as some of this info is already available in character articles and descriptions, and compiling it would make it easier to read or to find, and there are other manga that have articles like this, such as Tetsuo Hara and Buronson's Hokuto no Ken. Its a proposal I had in mind, and if you guys agree, I am willing to write the article. Let me know what you think. Onikiri (talk) 23:20, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

That type of article could be considered WP:Fancruft (only a few characters share techniques) and would fail WP:Notability.Tintor2 (talk) 23:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

i agree with Tintor2. That is too much fancruft and doesn't warrant its own article.--Refuteku (talk) 19:35, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Saint Seiya or Knights of the Zodiac?

I noticed that the name is the Japanese version. Wiki goes by the most common English name. and Viz media calls it knights of the zodiac as well, shouldn't we rename this article to Knights of the zodiac considering?Bread Ninja (talk) 18:33, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Viz uses both Saint Seiya and Knights of the Zodiac as a title [1].Tintor2 (talk) 18:37, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Seems like they are more leaning towards knights of the zodiac and just did something similar to what we do in wikipedia when there's more than one title. Anymore RS calling it saint seiya other than ANN? (ANN still keep the japanese names despite an english name being confirmed somtimes) Bread Ninja (talk) 19:03, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

The longest US DVD release called it "Saint Seiya". We should also take into account the fact that the series is very old (1986) but was only very recently released in the US, and the name "Knights of the Zodiac" exists only since 2004. So we have potentially 18 years worth of english publications which could only refer to the series as Saint Seiya before it was officially released in english. In my opinion, it's clear english speaking countries are more familiar with StS than KotZ. And let's not forget that KotZ generally refers to the edited version of the TV show, wildly unpopular among fans...Folken de Fanel (talk) 21:09, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Well thanks for the update. though really, we it wont matter if it's more popular if one name was was Japanese title and the other was English. we use the most popular English name, but since the Japanese one is also being used for the English title, it's ok.Bread Ninja (talk) 01:49, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Suggestions - Infobox

Sanctuary, Inferno and Elysion are only arcs of the Hades series, well as Sanctuary, Asgard and Poseidon are arcs of the original series.

They were arcs yes, but they were marketed as separate. --Refuteku (talk) 05:01, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

The arcs of the TV series were marketed together. That's why the number of episodes continues following an arc's end and the series' name was still Saint Seiya. The OVAs' number are instead different, while all of them carry different names unlike the TV series.Tintor2 (talk) 14:25, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, i meant in the sense of their names.--Refuteku (talk) 17:42, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

The TV anime was always marketed as Saint Seiya. All the OVAs had different titles.Tintor2 (talk) 17:57, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, that is called different marketing as i said.--Refuteku (talk) 06:38, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

That's why OVAs have to be separated. They are were released with different titles at irregular dates and different numbers unlike the TV series whose episodes contain the same TV title and all dates were scheduled.Tintor2 (talk) 11:36, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes i know, xD I wasn't the one who wrote the first post xD--Refuteku (talk) 15:06, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Then what's the reason for that?Tintor2 (talk) 15:20, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

What's the reason for what?--Refuteku (talk) 17:04, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

The point you brought for this section. Or it was somebody who left it unsigned?Tintor2 (talk) 17:13, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Ah, i just noticed my old post had somehow ended up right in his, so i moved it. And yeah, user 189.31.9.120 left it unsigned.

Review(s)

• ANN Jason Thompson

--KrebMarkt (talk) 17:53, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

• Manga-news.com review (in French)
• Manga-news.com review of the deluxe edition (in French)
• Report on the franchise (in French)

--Cyn starchaser (talk) 08:24, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Missing game?

They have missed several games, including a "tipying training" game, Saint Seiya Paradise (GB RPG from Galatic Tournament to Poseidon) and perhaps some others. Also, there are fan games that were worthy mentioning too.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.126.100.77 (talk • contribs) 00:39, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

You are right about that. However, fan games should be avoided unless they have been covered several times by reliable third-party sources.Tintor2 (talk) 01:39, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

live action

hi, i've added the live action with its references, in italy is very popular. hope will be useful! --2.33.3.187 (talk) 23:35, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

The live action was a prank by a spanish fan and should not be added, fanfilms does not have a place here as well.--Refuteku (talk) 18:23, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Role of the gold saints at the end of the Hades Chapter (reverted edit)

I felt the need to add a few words regarding the (capital) role of the gold saints during the last stretch of both the manga and the animated series : https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Saint_Seiya&oldid=578600830&diff=prev “[begining of the sentence left unchanged] Hades then takes Saori to the Elysium, and the five Bronze Saints follow them [my edit], but are stopped by the indestructible Lamentation Wall, until the 12 Gold Clothes are spontaneously reunited to generate a ray of light as powerful as the Sun, which is the only way to breach into it and reach Elysium.” My edit was reverted as : “unnecesary [sic] and poorly written” Now, english is not my first language, and I'm eager to learn every day, but I'd say that the above commentary is at least as “poorly written” as the aforementioned edit. I still think it would be relevant to mention, even very briefly, the last and crucial contribution of the gold saints (i.e. the ultimate sacrifice of Athena's most powerful saints, who have been scandalously under-employed in the original series, during the Asgard and Poseidon chapters, as well as in most of the movies). So I'd be glad if someone who agrees could help me rewrite this sentence in a more satisfying way. Thanks. --Abolibibelot (talk) 19:46, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Ha ha, "unnecessary and poorly written" is a poorly written comment?

Anyway, i said that because the Gold Saints are not the main characters, and the event at the wailing wall is a very small event which should be summed up in one sentence max. Something like "The souls of the twelve Gold Saints are then reunited one final time, and creates a way for the Bronze Saints to reach Elysium."--Refuteku (talk) 20:49, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

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Just to notify anyone who has editing capabilities

Hong Kong Company Madhead has announced a collaboration between their game Tower of Saviors and Saint Seiya. Source: https://www.facebook.com/TowerOfSaviors/photos/a.329420303826224/1784299708338269/?type=3&theater Expected release date: April 21st 2019 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Battlealvin2009 (talk • contribs) 06:20, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Live action movie currently in development

Hello everyone,

As many of you probably know already, a live action movie is currently being developed. I tried making a wikipedia page for it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Saint_Seiya:_Knights_of_the_Zodiac_(Live_Action_Movie) which has been rejected because it lacks independent sources. This is actually the first wikipedia page I ever created and I tried my best, but surely that was not enough. If you feel like contributing to it in order to make it proper and also prone to be published, please do apply your edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thenormal (talk • contribs) 10:20, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Sadly, I guess it's too soon due the little content. Maybe it might better to have more more official like a release date.Tintor2 (talk) 19:51, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

"Cosmo" is not a "mystical energy"!

In the current version of the page, "cosmo" is described as some kind of "mystical energy". E.g. in the introduction section of the page there is: "...and empowered by a mystical energy called "Cosmo".", and in the first paragraph of the plot section there is "Upon awakening his "Cosmo" (小宇宙コスモ, Kosumo), the power of the Saints which is an inner spiritual essence originated in the Big Bang..."

I want to make the following points:

1. I think it is absurd and misleading to regard "小宇宙 (cosmo)" as some kind of "energy" or "power". "小宇宙" literally means "little/small cosmos/universe" or "microcosm", and it basically refers to the "inner cosmos/universe" of each person – each person's mind or "innermost being" is like a cosmos/universe by itself, and it is a little/small cosmos/universe, to be distinguished from the cosmos/universe that we normally talk about. The Saints and the other powerful characters in the series are able to awaken their "mini-cosmos" to unleash great power, and how this happens physically is not explained and is therefore indeed mysterious. But as far as I know, at least in the original series, it was not stated explicitly that the energies themselves are mystical or unphysical. It was only the way in which [the characters were able to draw the energies from their "mini-cosmos" and use them the way they do] that could be regarded as mysterious, and that it is mysterious is not at all emphasized in (at least) the original series, since in the series it is simply something that the characters do intuitively.

2. Whether "cosmo" can be regarded as an "essence" depends on the definition of the word "essence" – "essence" is an ambiguous word. I doubt it's the best word to use here given its ambiguity.

3. By the Big Bang theory, very crudely speaking and neglecting the philosophical subtleties, in a sense everything [physical (e.g. the body of a person)] or [causally associated with something physical (e.g. a person's mind, as it is causally associated with the physical object that is the person's body)] originates from the Big Bang, and "cosmo" is no exception. I don't think [that "cosmo" in particular originates from the Big Bang] should be emphasized here.

4. The analogy of the "big bang" of the "cosmo" (i.e. "mini-cosmos") and the Big Bang of the cosmos/universe is an allegory, there is no reason to think that the "big bang" of the "cosmo" directly originates from the Big Bang of the cosmos/universe (although it still indirectly originates from the Big Bang via the person and their "cosmo", which in turn originate from the Big Bang). As Marin suggested, the "big bang" of the "cosmo", and the Saints' use of their power in general, mimic the Big Bang of the cosmos/universe.

I will edit the page to correct these false and misleading statements when I have time for it.

- By RL

2001:569:BD72:100:1836:7F7A:F57B:66F3 (talk) 11:09, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Update 1: Some corrections have already been made.

RL

2001:569:BD72:100:59B4:5890:2F07:6EB2 (talk) 00:29, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Update 2:

I created a Wikipedia account just now. The edits from 23:19, 15 May 2023‎ (UTC) to 00:36, 16 May 2023 (UTC)‎ on the Saint Seiya article are all made by me (but my IP address somehow changed).

RL

LRC.WK (talk) 00:50, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Update 3:

I see from search engine results that the misunderstanding that "cosmo" is a kind of energy seems to be common in the English-speaking world. I think this is very much because most of the people are not sufficiently familiar with what the Japanese word(s) in Chinese characters "小宇宙" means. The word(s) is not special or archaic – it is basically the only word(s) in Chinese characters that has the meaning "mini-cosmos", and its meaning hasn't changed since ancient times. I find it very unnatural and unintuitive to say "a universe is a kind of energy", since by any normal notion of energy, energy is something that a universe has, not what a universe is.

Also, characters in the series refer to cosmo in personal terms, e.g. "my cosmo", "Seiya's cosmo", "Athena's cosmo", et cetera, and each character's cosmo is personal to the character, e.g. a kind character is most likely to have a "warm" or benevolent cosmo, and an evil character the opposite, and moreover the characters can often (but not always) tell that a cosmo they sensed is of a specific person they know, e.g. characters who know Athena and Seiya can tell if a cosmo they sensed is the cosmo of Seiya or Athena. These points alone don't exclude cosmo from being a kind of energy, but they at least show that even if cosmo is a kind of energy, it would be a highly personal kind.

Now let us note for example how "cosmo" is different from "the force" in Star Wars – "the force" is impersonal, as it's simply something that people sense and use, and people wouldn't normally say e.g. "my force", "Yoda's force", "Palpatine's force", et cetera; and they wouldn't say e.g. they can sense "Vader's force", and would say instead something like that they can sense the presence of Vader from the disturbance in the force caused by his presence.

LRC.WK (talk) 09:43, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

I think the definition it is overly worded for a lead, can we at least leave it as an "individual source of strength" or something like that? Xexerss (talk) 00:42, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

I think given how important the concept of "cosmo" is for the series, it's good to introduce it briefly in the introduction section as I did. I think if we are to make it less wordy, we shouldn't do any more than eliminating the "/universe". I don't think after eliminating the "/universe" my edit is still wordy, and I would therefore recommend that we do that instead of what you did in your new edit. LRC.WK (talk) 01:06, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, despite the nuances, terms like Ki, Devils Fruits, Chakra, Stands, etc., are important too in other series like Dragon Ball, One Piece, Naruto and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, but I don't see worded definitions of those terms in the leads of these articles. Xexerss (talk) 01:16, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

We don't have to do the same as what others did - we don't have to bend to the pressure of conformity. I think "cosmo" is very different from "Ki, Devils Fruits, Chakra, Stands", since it is literally the "mini-cosmos" of a person, like an innermost being. If you only call it a "source", people are likely to automatically get the impression that it's some kind of energy, which is exactly the misunderstanding that I want to clarify with my edits. And as I said, wouldn't you agree that my added description of "cosmo" is actually quite short? LRC.WK (talk) 01:22, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Casual readers are not that interested to delve into the concept when they're just reading a lead. I don't know why it is so crucial for this particular series to be so detailed over a term and why it is more important to know about it here than know about other concepts used for battles in other series. If you don't want that readers get the wrong idea about the concept, then maybe we can simply omit it from lead. Xexerss (talk) 01:32, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Have you read the manga of the original series or watched the first anime series from 1986 to 1989? "Cosmo" is not just something people use. It is literally like the person's innermost being, like I said before - the "inner universe" of a person. It is absolutely central to this series and stands qualitatively different from "Ki, Devils Fruits, Chakra, Stands", which are just some kinds of energies or energy sources. It is something that makes this series stand out among the series of its kind. LRC.WK (talk) 01:41, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

I still favor what I proposed earlier:

"...and empowered by their individual "Cosmo" (小宇宙（コスモ）, Kosumo), which literally means "mini-cosmos" and alludes to that the mind or innermost being of a person is like a cosmos by itself — the "inner universe" of a person." LRC.WK (talk) 01:58, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

We could just omit the term and readers will still get the basic premise of the series in a concise way (which is the purpose of lead). Call it whatever you want, but the main purpose of "Cosmo" within the series is to serve as the system/medium for battles, so in that sense, I don't see how it is that different from other concepts mentioned before, and I still don't get why we need to be detailed about it in lead. Xexerss (talk) 02:02, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

In the series, "Cosmo" is not just "to serve as the system/medium for battles". Each character's "cosmo" is, as I said, like the innermost being of the character, and is therefore also crucial for the representation of their personality, psyche, and inner (mental) strength. The same cannot be said of "Ki, Devils Fruits, Chakra, Stands", hence the qualitative difference and why I think it should be included in the introduction.

I think it's better to omit it in the intro than to call it an "individual source of stregnth", since "individual source of stregnth" sounds way too generic and will likely make the readers automatically assume that it is no different from the "energy sources" from the other series of the kind. If we omit it in the intro, I still think it helps to include a proper "one-sentence" introduction of "cosmo" somehwere else in the article. LRC.WK (talk) 02:18, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

I know that it is more than that, but given that Saint Seiya is mainly known as a super powered battle series, that's why I said that "to serve as the system/medium for battles" is its main (NOT the only one) purpose. We can deepen the concept in the plot section. I suggest to include citations from the own manga chapters to not incur into WP:ORIGINAL. Xexerss (talk) 02:39, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

It's really general knowledge and appears at least implicitly in every volume of the manga, so I'm not sure citations are necessary. But if citations are needed, I think it's sufficient to cite [Volume 1 of the manga of the original series] (to which the introduction of "cosmo" is central) or the 1986-1989 anime series. Both the manga Volume 1 and the first episode of the 1986-1989 anime series contain the fantastic introduction to "cosmo" through Marin's teachings and Seiya's fighting experience, and I would highly recommend that you see them actually – it's among the best parts of the manga and anime. LRC.WK (talk) 03:11, 16 May 2023 (UTC)