Talk:Samuel Jordan

Name

Samuel Jordan, or Sylvester? Is this the same person recorded in Bermudian history as Sylvester Jordain?

Auth of below:

Aodhdubh 03:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

No. Sylvester Jourdain, who wrote the account "Discovery of the Barmudas", returned to England on the same ship as Sir Thomas Gates, arriving in England in September 1610. His account of his adventures was published the following month. Samuel Jordan was a different person. Applephile (talk) 16:25, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

"I want to really Know my Family." Jackie Carl Jordan (talk) 14:21, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

"Life is so amazing!" Jackie Carl Jordan (talk) 14:22, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Sources?

I would be interested in reading more on this topic. No sources are listed, though, for any of the information. Can anyone suggest any useful publications? Tim Ross 12:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

it is the same, his name is actually silas samuel jordan. Apparently he as responsible for maitaining a day to day journal or log of their activities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbravo2007 (talk • contribs) 16:09, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Samuel Jordan had a daughter named Joane Jordan

The article only talks of 3 sons. Didn't he have 1 daughter Joan who came over on the Tyger with her children and husband Thomas Palmer.

Thank You,

sammy1107@cox.net —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.98.195.48 (talk) 02:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Thomas Palmer came in the Tyger in 1621 with his wife Joane and stepdaughter Priscilla (see Ferrar Papers, 1601a). I don't know of any evidence of the wife's maiden name or the name of her first husband. I would be interested in hearing if there is any evidence on this point. Applephile (talk) 17:33, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I didn't see anything about daughter(s) in my family records, however I did find several other geneological sites on the web that list this "Joan". For example, here: http://www.karenfurst.com/genealogy/jordan/

I noticed that on the places where I see Joan referenced, her birth date is before the marriage date. Maybe she was born out of wedlock and therefore excluded for the historical recollection? We were aware of the daughter Anne Marie, but she wasn't mentioned in "These Jordans were Here" or "Roots in Virginia". I think maybe it was normal to exclude daughters from these kinds of records, which would explain the lack of information. Dmjordan (talk) 03:54, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

So far I've seen no evidence to suggest any relationship between Thomas Palmer's family and the family of Samuel Jordan. I suspect someone at some time mistakenly attached unwarranted significance to the fact that the Palmers appear on the 1624/5 muster living at Jordan's Journey. It doesn't mean they were related to Samuel Jordan. There were 15 or so families living at Jordan's Journey after the attack.Applephile (talk) 15:33, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I've removed some of the unsourced statements.

No source was cited for the year of Samuel Jordan's birth or for his origins. No source was cited for his having been previously married, or for his having children from any previous marriage. No source was cited for his being the father of Thomas Jordan. I have not been able to find any supporting evidence for any of these statements. I have removed the unsupported statements. Applephile (talk) 17:08, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

But he was shipwrecked in Bermuda  why was that removed? Casemizer (talk) 15:18, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Accounts of the story of the survivors reached England and, it’s widely believed, led to William Shakespeare’s play, “The Tempest.” For certain, those accounts stirred England’s interest in the island of Bermuda. Three years after the wreck of the Sea Venture, hopes for a successful Bermuda colony are said to have swayed King James to renew the Virginia Company’s Third charter which was enlarged to include the island of Bermuda, as well as the still fragile, still struggling James Fort.

That year, 1612, the Plough with 60 settlers aboard landed on the island and the town of St. George was established. The hopes of this Bermuda colony to grow tobacco proved futile as the soil was not favorable. The island is now the oldest self-governing British colony and thrives because of its beauty and incredible marine life.

‘James Fort’ became Jamestown seven years later in 1619. The island newspaper, the Royal Gazette reported that the St. George Foundation and the Jamestown City County Board of Supervisors have agreed to ‘twin’ their communities in order to strengthen their historical bonds..

Our time in Bermuda was ending, and Will and I were about to make our own journey to Virginia. He was tanned from the sun and our hours of swimming in the reefs. As we left the island and flew over the sapphire waters of the Sargasso Sea – Bermuda is near the western fringes of the sea – Will turned to me and began to talk about our ancestor, Samuel Jordan who was from Dorset, England and is reported to have sailed on the Sea Venture and to have been a part of this great Bermuda adventure.

Records show that some years after arriving in James Fort, Samuel Jordan established Jordan’s Journey, a small outlying plantation on the south side of the James River. This land grant ,patented in 1620, was near the land grant of his fellow adventurer on the Sea Venture, the widowed John Rolfe, who would marry the Indian princess, Pocahontas. Samuel Jordan was a representative to the first legislative session in Jamestown and his name is included on the list of the ‘Ancient Planters’ of Virginia.

“Our first Virginian,” said Will.

I nodded. I too was thinking of Samuel Jordan and the sons he’d left behind in England who soon followed him to Virginia. And, their sons and daughters. And now … here’s our Will. And his younger brother, waiting at home in Winchester. And his three Leesburg cousins. Today’s young Virginians.

Thank you, Samuel Jordan. Thank you, Bermuda.

POST-SCRIPT: Records listing the names of those who sailed on the Sea Venture are scant and incomplete. Most historians and almost all Virginia Jordan family genealogy records list Samuel Jordan aboard that vessel, ship-wrecked on Bermuda and arriving in James Fort (Jamestown) in May, 1610. Circumstantial evidence offers support : Sir George Somers, Samuel Jordan, his life-long friend William Pierce and his cousin, Sylvester Jordaine, were all from the small sea-coast town of Lyme Regis in Dorset, England. It’s reasonable to think they sailed together on the same vessel, the Sea Venture.

Casemizer (talk) 15:22, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Evidence on Three Sons and Previous Wife

My grandfather, Jack Meryl Jordan (b. 1911), retired Colonel(now deceased), spent the last 15 years of his life traveling the south and eastern US studying our Jordan family history, speaking with people, going to cemetaries and libraries. He did his research the old fashioned way and his information is what I base my comments on.

This Wiki article on "Samuel Jordan" states "Samuel Jordan is not known to have had other children. Attempts have been made to find a relationship between Samuel Jordan and Thomas Jordan, who appears on the 1624/5 Muster, but no evidence of such a relationship has yet emerged."

This may be inaccurate per the following references.

“These Jordans Were Here” by Octavia Jordan Perry, Copyrighted, 1969, Library of Congress Card No A-85-366, references Samuel's three sons by a previous marriage on pages 27 and 28: “After Samuel Jordan acquired the 450 acres of land in the territory of Great Wayonoke (Charles City County), he named his plantation Jordan’s Journey, and built a manor house on it which he spoke of as Beggar’s Bush. Samuel Jordan was a family man with three known sons but no records about his wife, who she was or where she was. The fact that this is not known is not unusual for in those days and times, records of a wife were considered of little concern, and anything about them was seldom recorded. That he had three sons, though, is recorded; but nothing about them is known until his son Robert Jordan was killed on March 22, 1622 in the Indian massacre. He was killed at Berkleys’ Hundred, some five miles up the river on the other side of Jordan’s Journey. Robert had gone there by boat to warn the inhabitants on the plantation of the ensuing Indian massacre which Mr. Pace of “Paces Pains” had heard about through a converted Indian employee of his - - Chanco."

In that same work by Perry, Pg. 34-36, Chapter VI, the Sons of Samuel Jordan, Ancient Planter speaks to Thomas Jordan: "Samuel’s son Thomas Jordan emigrated to Virginia on the Diana in 1623, perhaps just before the death of his father." And then “In the year 1624-25, he was listed as living in Pashebaighty (James Cittie)...”

My family's research shows that Thomas Jordan of Isle of Wight, Virginia (born 1600 in Wiltshire, England), was the product of Samuel Jordan's 1st marriage in 1596, to Frances (b. 1575). We show that there were four children in all by this first marriage, including also Anna Marie Jordan (b. 1596), Robert Jordan (b. 1598) and Samuel Jr. (b. 1602). All of the children were born in England.

"Roots in Virginia" by Nathaniel Clairborne Hale, lists Samuel Jordan's three sons: Samuel, Thomas and Robert.

The Wiki article states that "there are today no known descendants of Samuel Jordan". Given the above information, we believe this to be incorrect, per the line of Thomas Jordan. There is a direct line from Samuel Jordan down through my father to myself:

Samuel Jordan (b. 1578) Thomas Jordan Sr. (b. 1600) Thomas Jordan (b. 1634) Samuel Jordan (b. 1678) William Jordan (b. 1704) Edward Jordan Sr. (b. 1720) Edward Jordan Jr. (b. 1745) Baxter Jordan (b. 1782) William Jordan (b. 1808) John Edward (b. 1845) Samuel Edward Jordan (b. 1873) Cleo Adair Jordan (b. 1890) Jack Meryl Jordan (b. 1911) Joseph W. Jordan (b. 1947) Deborah M. Jordan (b. 1968) and John B. Jordan (b. 1974)

Thank you for considering this information as part of your ongoing improvement to the "Samuel Jordan" Wiki article. It is my hope that the sons of Samuel by his first wife will be listed as the descendents that they are.

Dmjordan (talk) 03:46, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Do you know on what evidence Octavia Jordan Perry based her statement that Samuel Jordan of Jordan's Journey had three known sons, and her statement that Robert Jordan (listed as one of the dead at Berkeleys Hundred in the List of the Living and Dead in Virginia (1623)) was a son of Samuel Jordan? Applephile (talk) 19:35, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Demand for citations

Is it really helpful to litter the article with so many "citation needed" tags? In many cases where the tag has been inserted, no citation is possible, because no evidence is available. For example, in the final sentence which states that there are no known descendants of Samuel Jordan: how can there be a citation for absence of information? Similarly, the statement "Samuel Jordan is not known to have other children" is tagged with a demand for a citation, but it is impossible to cite evidence for something which is not known.

In several other places, a citation is demanded unnecessarily. For instance, in the paragraph which begins "In 1622, the local Indian tribes organized a surprise attack on the English colonists", that sentence is tagged as needing a citation, even though the following sentence references the Wikipedia article on the topic. Not to mention the fact that demanding evidence for such a well-known historic event is like demanding proof that George Washington was the first president of the US.

I agree that assertions presented as fact should be substantiated with reference to evidence, and in some cases citations are indeed needed. But footnotes should be used only when needed, as each superscripted number interrupts the reading of the article.

In some of the cases, however, I agree that citations are needed. Applephile (talk) 19:05, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

No known ancestors alive of Samuel Jordan

I read here that there was some evidence that there are no living ancestors left of Samuel Jordan? Well, I am here. Through Jane (Jeane Jordan), Thomas Jordan's (B 1660) daughter with Elizabeth Burgh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.79.192.177 (talk) 17:35, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

JUDITH SCOTT Birth 1702 in St Peters, New Kent, Virginia, USA

Judith Scott (c1705-c1785 Buckingham Co. VA) c1725 - willed Goochland land to his brother Henry. Judith m. 2nd Samuel Jordan widower of Ruth Meredith on 28 Feb 1745 in Buckingham Co. VA; Samuel 1st married to Ruth Meredith who died c1744. Samuel and Ruth Meredith Jordan had Ruth Jordan who married John Hunter, Mary Jordan who married Geddes Waiston, and Margaret Jordan who married William Cabell. Samuel and his 2d wife Judith Scott Ware Jordan had Pauline Jordan (c1746-31 Jul 1781) who married Col. John Cabell on 20 May 1762, Wilhemina Jordan (c1748) who m. Col. John Wyatt, and Caroline Matilda Jordan (c1750) who married Col. Hugh Rose. Wilhemina’s daughter Susanna Wyatt m. Dr. George Cabell. Caroline Matilda’s daughter Judith Scott Rose m. Landon Cabell; her daughter Caroline Matilda m. Dr. Phillip Turpin; and her son (Ros ?) m. a sister of President James Madison. Inthe Virginia magazine of history and biography, Vol. 50-51, p. 257, "John Scott, of New Kent, married Judith .... and dying in 1729 left Samuel, b. 1707; Sarah, b. 1710; Mary, b. 1711/12; Jane, b. 1713; Martha, b. 1716; Jesse, b. 1718. Although not recorded in St. Peter's Parish Register he is said also to have had a daughter Judith who married, first, Peter Ware,"

http://home.comcast.net/~wdegidio/Ware/WareLineage1.htm.

--------------7-Peter  Ware  (c1702-1741 Henrico Co. VA) m. Judith Scott (c1705-c1785 Buckingham Co. VA) c1725 - willed Goochland land to his brother Henry. Judith m. 2nd Samuel Jordan widower of Ruth Meredith on 28 Feb 1745 in Buckingham Co. VA; Samuel 1st married to Ruth Meredith who died c1744. Samuel and Ruth Meredith Jordan had Ruth Jordan who married John Hunter, Mary Jordan who married Geddes Waiston, and Margaret Jordan who married William Cabell. Samuel and his 2d wife Judith Scott Ware Jordan had Pauline Jordan (c1746-31 Jul 1781) who married Col. John Cabell on 20 May 1762, Wilhemina Jordan (c1748) who m. Col. John Wyatt, and Caroline Matilda Jordan (c1750) who married Col. Hugh Rose. Wilhemina’s daughter Susanna Wyatt m. Dr. George Cabell. Caroline Matilda’s daughter Judith Scott Rose m. Landon Cabell; her daughter Caroline Matilda m. Dr. Phillip Turpin; and her son (Ros ?) m. a sister of President James Madison.  Inthe Virginia magazine of history and biography, Vol. 50-51, p. 257, "John Scott, of New Kent, married Judith .... and dying in 1729 left Samuel, b. 1707; Sarah, b. 1710; Mary, b. 1711/12; Jane, b. 1713; Martha, b. 1716; Jesse, b. 1718.  Although not recorded in St. Peter's Parish Register he is said also to have had a daughter Judith who married, first, Peter Ware,"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.80.117.31 (talk) 20:21, 10 April 2014 (UTC) 

Thomas Jordan arrived in Virginia after Samuel Jordan died. Thomas Jordan has many descendants. It has not been shown that Thomas Jordan is related to Samuel Jordan, though it hasn't been disproven other. Dorman's Adventurers of Purse and Person gives a synopsis. Wtfiv (talk) 20:00, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Samuel Jordan in England

This article has been heavily edited and reworked using as many close to primary sources as I could find. The primary goal of this edit was to organize the existing sourced information to establish Samuel's notability in early Jamestown history. These seem to be his roles as legislator and as founder of Jordan's Journey, which provided a stronghold that allowed the colony to survive during the Second Anglo-Powhatan war. The value of Jordan's Journey can be seen in the legal suit that ensued after Jordan died.

The weakest part of this article remains Jordan's life in England. Before editing, his section had no accessible, reputable sources to back up its claims. The four existing links were to genealogical sites. Two of the links were broken, and their comments couldn't be found by search. Another ion is about Thomas's relation to Samuel, but acknowledged that it was just speculation as there is no source to verify. I kept a sourced version of this speculation. The last link directly quoted Winslow's 1931 book. The intent of this link was kept by citing Winslow's assertions directly, and tying it to a link to the relevant page in her book. [I have also added another reference previously mentioned in this discussion N. C. Hale]. Unfortunately, the assertions of both authors are also conjectural as they do not cite any sources reliably connecting the Jordans to Samuel. The rest of the information about his life in England was unsourced, so it was deleted. If reliably sourced information about Jordan's life in England could be found, that would be great. Knowing about these early settler's life before they came to England would add a great deal of historical insight.

On another note, though the relationship between Thomas and Samuel still seems inconclusive, it doesn't impact the larger impact of the Jordan family's role in US history (though it may concern those worried about genealogy). Thomas, who arrives in Virginia at age 18, nine years after Samuel, appears to have created his own independent reputation as an early settler during the Jamestown era, and he seems to have solidly established his own legacy quite well.

I've added an infobox on Samuel Jordan as well. The birth year range remains conjectural, it is based on physical evidence from archaeological data that is cited in the article.Wtfiv (talk) 20:32, 24 February 2019 (UTC) updated 9 Aug 2019

Ancestors of Note

Deleted section of ancestors of note for Samuel Jordan. There is no evidence that he had any children in the New World except Mary and Margaret, whose fates are not known. Most Virginia Jordan ancestors are descended from Thomas Jordan. As mentioned in the article, some sources have suggested he may have been a child of Samuel Jordan's who arrived in the New World later, but there is no documented WP:RS evidence for this, and the professional geneologists are cautious on this point. Wtfiv (talk) 16:51, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

The Spellings of Samuel Jordan

Hi Steveprutz, an alternative spelling of Jordan's first name was added to the article based on this National Park Service Link. Orthography at the time was not yet regular, so variant spellings probably existed, even in the spelling of last names. But this site does not support it. Although it spells Jordan's first name "Samual", none of the sources that it gives at the bottom of the page– Andrews (misspelled on the webpage as Andrew), Bruce, Hatch, Kammen, Padover , or "The Three Charters"– support this spelling. Only one, Hatch, mentions Samuel Jordan; it is as the representative for Charles Citty, but Hatch spells it with an 'e'. Kingsbury, which is the reliable source that is already sited for Jordan's serving as a representative also spells his name with an "e". The spelling used on the National Park Service site may be based on an uncited original document or just a website misspelling like "Andrew" for "Andrews". Wtfiv (talk) 00:01, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

McIlwaine 1915, who gives alternative spellings for the representatives of the hundreds at the 1619 assembly (and other assemblies on subsequent pages), also spell's Jordans name with an 'e'.Wtfiv (talk) 00:07, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I think my edit should have been reverted. I'm guessing there is already a Wikipedia guideline (made by experts) about handling the colorful spellings and grammar of this era in England (but not sure where to look). Perhaps a simple #redirect page might help someone doing research directly from documents of the era. StevePrutz (talk) 17:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)