Talk:Samuel Loudon

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DYK nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 18:00, 12 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Source 1: Poughkeepsie Journal newspaper 7_4_1976 When British forces in 1776 forced publisher and printer Samuel Loudon to flee New York City with his presses, neither they nor he could have imagined this would some day make Loudon famous. ...State American Revolution Bicentennial Commission show that Fishkill was the first post office in New York State ...
Source 2: Poughkeepsie Journal newspaper 7_26_1974 Fishkill was the first Postal Station in N.Y. State. Fishkill printer Samuel Loudon ran the first Post Office in the state ...

Created by Gwillhickers (talk) and Doug Coldwell (talk). Nominated by Gwillhickers at 22:49, 25 February 2022 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough

Policy compliance:

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: No - Source for the proposed hook needs to immediately follow the sentence containing the hook.
  • Interesting: No - I think a better hook could be considered here. This hook completely glosses over the fact that Loudon had to flee the city due to the Revolutionary War; additionally, the post office's connection to Loudon isn't clear. There are some other interesting anecdotes in this article: that he printed the first New York State Constitution, that an angry mob of his fellow Whigs broke into his house and destroyed his writings. But if this hook is chosen, I believe it should be reworded for conciseness.
  • The original hook does mention the fact that Loudon was forced "to flee New York City". I'm of the opinion that that hook is okay as written and don't see how Loudon's flight from NY has been glossed over, however, ALT 2 is better worded. I would chose ALT 2 first, then maybe ALT 3 as alternative hooks. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 00:43, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Loudon's connection to the post office was that he was the postmaster, which we've provided a link for. A postmaster is the head of the post office and oversees the handling of mails, mail routes etc. I've added text to this effect, even though we have the term linked. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:36, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
QPQ: Done.

Overall: @Gwillhickers: New enough, unquestionably long enough, extremely well-sourced, QPQ done. Article needs copyediting, as there are several grammatical errors: missing (or rogue) punctuation, run-on sentences, and some unclear statements. For other hooks, consider:

  • I believe the punctuation and grammar issues have been addressed. While some of the sentences are on the long side I'd be happy to deal with any that you feel are of particular issue here. If there are any other statements that are less than clear please point them out and I'll deal with them directly. Btw, thanks for the kind words and compliment. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 00:33, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Gwillhickers: I did some other copyediting and added the source footnote directly to the hook sentence, per DYK guidelines. Was this post office established in 1776 or 1777? This phrase in that paragraph is throwing me off: after the Americans took over the former British system in July 1776. Can that be clarified in the article? After that fix, should be good to go. – TCMemoire 01:58, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @TCMemoire: Thanks for your edits to the article.  Loudon fled NYC in August 1776. The post office at Fishkill was established under Loudon upon his arrival in 1776. The article text reads: ... Fishkill became the first post office in New York state after the Americans took over the former British system in July 1776.  Fishkill  then  was considered the post office for the State of New York... The term "then" in the context its used fixes the year date at 1776. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:46, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Great. Should be good to go, then! – TCMemoire 03:00, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Newspapers[edit]

  • @Doug Coldwell: — Thanks for getting the information from the newspapers. Some of this information would never occur in historical texts. I should come up to speed with newspapers.com. I'm assuming you can do a general search and any newspaper containing the key search words will come up. Yes? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:59, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Gwillhickers: Not all newspapers totally, but a good chunk of historical newspapers. Whatever is in Newspapers.com database. Odds are in your favor if you keep plugging in key words in the search box likely you will come across something good, especially IF its history of at least 50 years or more back.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 21:08, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I just gave it a go, but the result was that a subscription was needed. In any case, its a great source of information, indeed. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:11, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Gwillhickers: Yes, that IS CORRECT = a subscription is needed. It is a fairly expensive subscription. You can get that subscription free at the Wikipedia library for free, just for the asking.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 21:22, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Gwillhickers: Putting in the keywords "Samuel Loudon" gets 697 hits, so you have to refine the search. Adding the word "printer" brings it down to 159 hits. Adding instead the word "Fishkill" brings it down to 85 hits. Be sure to get your free subscription to Newspapers.com from the Wikipedia library. Your local public library does not have it, because it is to expensive.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 22:15, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

DYK[edit]

@Doug Coldwell: -- Okay, there we have it. I condensed some of the text a bit and substituted printer for publisher since that term is in the title of the article. Will get on the QPQ soon. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:53, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Official printer for NY[edit]

  • @Doug Coldwell: — While Loudon was the official printer for the state, I can't find anything that covers how this came about. He certainly didn't assume the position on his own. It would seem that he must have been appointed. Likewise, when he became postmaster, was he also appointed, and by whom? Franklin? Looked far and wide but nothing yet. I'm hoping newspapers might give us those answers. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:48, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Gwillhickers: Yes, I would have a tendency to think he DID INDEED assume the position on his own. Here is the first column enlarged of the 4 July 1976 large article Fishkill Post Office State's First. The key give away wording that makes me believe this is It was not unusual for the printer and publisher also to be postmaster in the early days of America. When Loudon moved to Fishkill and became the village's printer by choice, he also then assumed the postmaster position as part of that job. It came with the territory. Since Fishkill was considered the first post office for the state of New York and Loudon was its postmaster -> THEN Loudon was the first official postmaster AND printer of the state of New York. The colony of New York became the state of New York 4 July 1776 and Loudon was already the postmaster / printer at Fishkill -> THEREFORE Loudon became the first printer for the State of New York by default. Fishkill was New York State's first Post Office AND the first Printing Office. Loudon was already in charge (postmaster) of the Fishkill Post Office which was also a Printing Office. So on 4 July 1776 Loudon automatically became New York state's first official printer by default, since Fishkill was officially the first Post Office for the State. Postmaster and Printer was a combined job at the time. It was one and the same person = Loudon.
To go the next step, John Holt was "appointed" the New York state official printer at Poughkeepsie in January 1778 by Legislature of New York. It had been formed under the Constitution which had been framed in Kingston in the spring of 1777. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:01, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Doug Coldwell: — Okay, that makes sense. But isn't the term postmaster normally an official title, a position of authority over others? We're already using the term postmaster, which is fine, but I think I'll add a footnote here clarifying the usage of Postmaster in this instance. An aside, the newspapers are a great source of info, and again, I'm seeing items that don't occur in other texts, but it would be interesting to know where they're are getting their information from. Perhaps the Fishkill historical society. Do they publish? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:07, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Gwillhickers: I'm looking at the Wikipedia article on "postmaster" and it says, A postmaster is the head of an individual post office responsible for all postal activities in a specific post office. To me that means things like getting an addressed letter to the correct person. Picking up other letters from locals for delivery to far off places. Fishkill and Poughkeepsie would have been such small places that there would NOT have been any employees. You say in the article that you wrote, After he established his printing operations in Fishkill he was appointed postmaster. You use for reference for this page 427 of Malone's Dictionary of American Biography. On that page it says, Furthermore, he was state printer and for a time postmaster at Fishkill. It does NOT say he was "appointed" postmaster. It says he had both jobs at the same time, but was NEVER "appointed" postmaster -OR- state printer. It points out he was a merchant and businessman. He opened a store and printery (print shop, an establishment where printing of newspapers is done) at Fishkill. The article will have to be changed to take out the fact he was "appointed" postmaster, because he was NOT appointed by anyone or a government organization. He assumed that position himself by opening a printery. He just took on that responsibility as a part of the overall business.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 20:53, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Fishkill Historical Society evidently have archives, but their web-page provides no link, so it would seem other arrangements would have to be made to access them. They have an email, and a phone number, (845-896-9560) so I'm going to give them a call and inquire. Keep you posted. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:23, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Doug Coldwell: Got a generic recording about hours of tours and such and other numbers to call. Will inquire further later. Yes, Malone doesn't mention "appointed" - I added that out of assumption at the time. Thanks for clarifying the account on that note. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:09, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Potential Good Article[edit]

I'm trying to design the article so that it will pass a GA review and get promoted to Good Article status. A weasel term ("probably") would never be allowed, so removed that term and referenced to the news clip that spells out he was born in Ireland and of Scotch-Irish ancestry. That will be accepted by a GA reviewer because that is exactly what the source says. Please leave the news clip reference where I placed it at the end of the sentence that says Scotch-Irish ancestry. Thanks! --Doug Coldwell (talk) 14:52, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Doug Coldwell: Yes, we can remove that term, even though a reputable scholar, Malone, 1935, uses it to express uncertainty, but we still can't present a statement as an undisputed fact when the accounts vary, esp when they are scholarly accounts, which are supposed to be our first choice of reliable sources. I've added yet another account from a Loudon biographer, Alexander Wall, who says that Loudon was "said to have been born in Scotland", but again, even though two sources mention Scotland, we still maintain our objectivity and neutrality here. That is also a very important GA criteria. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:46, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • When it comes time to nominate the article, it would be nice if we could co-nominate it. I wasn't given that opportunity in the William Goddard article which I created in 2010. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:49, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Gwillhickers: Make you a deal that you can't turn down. You go ahead and be the nominator. I have a dozen nominations already in the queue. That will keep me busy over the next few months. I'll be adding some more from articles I created as I go along.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:16, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If that's what you'd like, but though we disagree on minor issues sometimes, I still welcome your participation and advice. Didn't mean to sound curt. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:31, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Doug Coldwell: — Yes, that category for nomination seems about best. I'm still looking into a few things. I'm still a bit puzzled how a private citizen assumed authority over the post office and the mails on his own initiative. It's understood that printers and postmasters were often one and the same. This was true with Goddard, Davis and others, but being a printer by itself doesn't seem to be the only requirement for such a position of authority and responsibility. Franklin had always appointed postmasters for the state or colony as the case may be, as he did with James Davis for North Carolina as far back as 1755. The topic here is adequately covered and sourced as it stands, so I'm not pressing the issue, but I've been covering a lot of ground looking into this hoping to get a brake, bearing in mind that printers like Loudon aren't covered by most historians. After that, regardless of any new findings, I think we can move forward with the nomination. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:18, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Doug Coldwell: Information about Loudon's funeral and place of burial remains to be found. I combed through the newspapers you've provided, as well as the other sources, but couldn't find anything about this. Loudon died in Middletown, New Jersey. Do you think a New Jersey newspaper might help us out here? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:10, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Date under American Revolution Section[edit]

Please check the year noted for the publication of “to the public”. It says 1976 but I think it should be 1776. 99.74.35.117 (talk) 22:27, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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