Talk:San Ildefonso school

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Article name: San Ildefonso school vs. San Ildefonso Self-taught Group[edit]

Yuchitown - The name of this article has been changed without out a discussion on the talk board. The name "San Ildefonso Self-taught Group" came from publications and literature (used in the citations). Can someone tell me where "San Ildefonso school" comes from and show the citations? When I do a quick google search nothing about an art movement shows for "San Ildefonso school". Also if this is the title of the article, I believe since its a proper name it would be "San Ildefonso School" all capitalized. Jooojay (talk) 17:59, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also someone needs to correct all the links now too, if this is the new name we will use for the article. Jooojay (talk) 18:00, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If I don't hear from anyone discussing this issue in the next 30 days, this article name change will be reversed. Jooojay (talk) 06:17, 28 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Title of this article was changed back today to "San Ildefonso Self-taught Group", after a lack of discussion on this topic. Jooojay (talk) 04:36, 11 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Tsah-doe: This is the conversation - I see you made a change once again without discussion. Please discuss. Jooojay (talk) 23:41, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, I came across this article after finding the template for Flatstyle. The term "San Ildefonso Self-Taught Group" is barely used in literature at all. It doesn't conform to Wikipedia standards and is cumbersome and awkward. San Ildefonso school, in keeping with related terms like Bacone school, has been used in early literature example from 1922 to recent literature example from 2019. I read above that you recommend capitalizing School, but school is lowercase in Bacone school. Tsah-doe (talk) 00:16, 22 April 2020 (UTC)Tsah-doe[reply]

Thanks for responding @Tsah-doe:, the term "San Ildefonso Self-taught Group" is in publication and citation and is used to describe this movement of people as well.^[1] Can you please edit the WP article and add citation(s) to reflect the new name used? I will add in "also known as", since this is not a well published term used if its only in one or two books. At some point this issue will probably come up again, so its good if there is documentation. Thanks Jooojay (talk) 02:57, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Highlights from Stanford's Native American paintings collection are showcased in Memory and Markets: Pueblo Painting in the Early 20th Century". Stanford University. 2012-02-22. Retrieved 2020-04-21. Well-known artists such as Tonita Peña and Alfonso Roybal, both from the San Ildefonso Pueblo, are represented in Memory and Markets. Peña was the only woman in the San Ildefonso Self-Taught Group, which included such noted artists as Roybal, Julian Martinez, Abel Sanchez, Crecencio Martinez, and Encarnación Peña.

Another reason to not use the term "self-taught" is that is factually incorrect, since the artists had formal art training in schools. Just added more info and citations about that. Tsah-doe (talk) 03:50, 22 April 2020 (UTC)Tsah-doe[reply]

I agree with you that the term "self taught" is factual incorrect if you are reading it literally, many names are not literal. San Ildefonso Self-taught Group and the term "self taught" are much more common terms used both academically and historically, but I don't think that alone doesn't make it correct.^[1]^[2]^[3]^[4]^[5] Since we don't do original research on Wikipedia, this change may be challenged later by others.

References

^ "Shaping a New Way 2". cla.purdue.edu. Retrieved 2020-04-22.
^ "Bridging the distance through art at the Museum of Northern Arizona". Navajo-Hopi Observer News. Retrieved 2020-04-22.
^ "'Blue chip royalty of Native American art'". www.normantranscript.com. Retrieved 2020-04-22.
^ "Denver Art Museum Announces 2019 Acquisitions and Monumental Gift of 44 Works on Paper | Denver Art Museum". denverartmuseum.org. Retrieved 2020-04-22.
^ "Lobby Exhibition | Peabody Museum". www.peabody.harvard.edu. Retrieved 2020-04-22.

Anything here can be challenged. It's in the literature. The Wheelwright Museum in Santa Fe has exhibited and published about these artists, but unfortunately their work is not widely digitized. Tsah-doe (talk) 23:31, 23 April 2020 (UTC)Tsah-doe[reply]

[1] "Highlights from Stanford's Native American paintings collection are showcased in Memory and Markets: Pueblo Painting in the Early 20th Century". Stanford University. 2012-02-22. Retrieved 2020-04-21. Well-known artists such as Tonita Peña and Alfonso Roybal, both from the San Ildefonso Pueblo, are represented in Memory and Markets. Peña was the only woman in the San Ildefonso Self-Taught Group, which included such noted artists as Roybal, Julian Martinez, Abel Sanchez, Crecencio Martinez, and Encarnación Peña.

[2] "Shaping a New Way 2". cla.purdue.edu. Retrieved 2020-04-22.

[3] "Bridging the distance through art at the Museum of Northern Arizona". Navajo-Hopi Observer News. Retrieved 2020-04-22.

[4] "'Blue chip royalty of Native American art'". www.normantranscript.com. Retrieved 2020-04-22.

[5] "Denver Art Museum Announces 2019 Acquisitions and Monumental Gift of 44 Works on Paper | Denver Art Museum". denverartmuseum.org. Retrieved 2020-04-22.

[6] "Lobby Exhibition | Peabody Museum". www.peabody.harvard.edu. Retrieved 2020-04-22.

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