Talk:Sarasota, Florida/Archive 1

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Pee-wee Herman

Sarasota was briefly famous for its adult movie theaters haunted by sheriff's deputies, when a paying customer was arrested for actually masturbating, in 1991— and turned out to be Pee-wee Herman. Many people displayed the level of their sophistication by being unable to separate Pee-wee Herman from the actor who portays him. Even the 2000 election didn't outshine this Florida event. Some mention should certainly be included in a description of Sarasota, Florida. Wetman 04:06, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The spammers keep taking it out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.91.70.49 (talk) 19:25, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Add more about the Ringlings?

The Ringlings probably have had more impact on this community than any other people. Shouldn't we write portions about their connections with Sarasota? They have a bridge named after them, they have a street named after them, they have schools named after them, that should be enough to warrant a section about the Ringlings' impact in the Sarasota area. --CFIF 02:51, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

What people consider "Sarasota"

The article should try and make a distinction between the City of Sarasota and what most people consider Sarasota. The county population that consider themself from Sarasota (basically no south county and city sarasota) outnumbers the city population by far. Its kind of dumb to talk about people who live in "Sarasota", but not in the city. I.E Katherine Harris lives on Longboat Key. Stephen King lives on Casey Key, I think, but either way no where near the city of Sarasota. SCTI is in the county (unless there is another branch up there). There should be a Sarasota Area article, or maybe split the City of Sarasota off. Just some thoughts.

I live in south county, Venice, then Englewood. I'm thinking most of us don't consider us to be "from Sarasota" However, culturally, geographically etc, longboat key, siesta key, etc sure seem like Sarasota to me even though they are their own townships. You bring up a great point tho. texxs (talk) 12:32, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I've tried looking for a definitive map of the Sarasota city limits, but it's hard to come by. I'm almost to the point of running down to the courthouse to check, for road maps have brief segments of Sarasota city, and the limits don't even appear to be linear. Also, it's impossible to cut Sarasota city off from the rest of interpreted Sarasota and still provide an acurate portrayal of the area. Sarasota is a community that has long outgrown its physical boundaries and most of its working, spending, and participating populus resides outside of the city, and due to its dependence on global tourists, visitors from the cities "suburbs" (although without small greens signs designating the city limits, the city seems to stretch nonstop from 41 to 75, Tallevast to GulfGate) wish to distinguish themselves from visitors from exotic places such as Michigan. The most ironic part about the cities is that most of us native Sarasotans can only afford to live outside of the city limits, whereas the city itself is populated by mostly residing former tourists. If this is going to be a strictly Sarasota City article, it should contain a detail entry on Newtown and the current controversy around the proposed Wal-Mart and paranoia of expulsion of the African American community(I'd be happy to write one as a graduate of Booker High School) and an expansion of the Indian Beach - Sapphire Shores entry (unfortunately my neighborhood, the Uplands, is situated just outside of the city limits.) I would also like to know more about why the city distinction is so important. As a resident of unincorporated Sarasota, I'm curious as to what sorts of taxes, regulations, and benefits arise from living within the city limits. hwibaryu - 4:05 PM Sunday, June 3rd, 2006

Wow, the city site is sure awful. It's possible the county site is better organized (I haven't checked). Here's a link to a difficult-to-see map of the city boundaries. I believe it would be confusing to put details on stuff outside of the municipality into this city-oriented article. Would a Sarasota (area) article work for you? If so, please consider creating one to hold all of the great stuff that would be better organized therein. (For what it's worth, I also live in an unincorporated area) --Flawiki 21:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Celebrity?

I think the list of celebrities is misleading to say the least. As stated above - Stephen King owns a home on Casey Key - which is not even remotely related to Sarasota as a city, the only connection would be its in Sarasota COUNTY. I suggest severe editing to this list. --ALogicalLibertine 15:53, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, people keep adding him, despite me saying he lives in Casey Key. [1] --CFIF 21:12, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I haven't been adding him, but you know... most people consider themselves from Sarasota even though they don't live in the city. I don't live in the incorperated parts of Sarasota (the city), but I still say I am from Sarasota (I am not using Sarasota as a replacement for Sarasota County, btw). And for most people, Casey Key is understood as part of the Sarasota area. Well, at least the North End of Casey Key (King lives right off midnight pass.. er.. beach). I guess my gripe is not with the comments, but more so of how this article is. I wish it wasn't about the city because when people say Sarasota, they are not talking about the City of Sarasota only. They are talking about about an area from Unversity Parkway down to at least Osprey and maybe even the whole County. Sure, places such as Venice are distint, but they identify with the whole area as well (vice versa too). I guess this will be my gripe with everything like this until hopefully we get something like a City-County arangement like Miami-Dade (just my opinion). I just don't think the area is getting the credit it deserves by having the City represent everything. Sorry, this is just coming from someone who has lived here for all their life.

" . . . most people consider themselves from Sarasota even though they don't live in the city. . . ." no, they don't. When people say they live in Sarasota, they mean the city. Yes I'm a local. We say , I licve in Nokomis or Ospey, or Venice etc. People who live in Venice, say they live in Venice. Osprey is not a su-urb of Sarasota, it's like 20 minutes (by car on a good day) from Sarasota in fact. Stephen King lives in Nokomis, on Casey Key. His house, yes I've been there, is like 45 minutes from Sarasota. I know because I gave him a ride to the courthouse in my taxi.

The very first entry doesn't belong here (Dick Vitale has a place in Lakewood Ranch, not even in the county). Correctness would probably mean tossing about everyone off of that list. Flawiki 18:43, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, Lakewood Ranch actually is in both Mannatee and Sarasota counties. However, he is part of the Sarasota community. Thats really the important thing. Every once in a while you get a comment in the paper from him about sports things in the community. He makes a large donation to the Boys and Girls club of Sarasota. Hell, he was even named as one of the most influencial citizens of Sarasota by Sarasota Magazine. I have to agree with you though in some way. Many of the people either live here part time or lived here at one time. I actually never heard of the Tom Cruise one though. I wish the article was a Sarasota article, not just the city of Sarasota. Unsigned comment by 146.201.139.26

Not where he lives, it's north of University, I played golf right past the beautiful home he built there and didn't cross over to the south even once. I'd be shocked if more than two or three people on the celeb list actually live in the city proper.Flawiki 16:52, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

True, thats why this article should be about the Sarasota area, not the City of Sarasota. But, just my opinion.

More categories or less information

There is a lot of information before the Table of Contents. Some of that should be reorganized into more subtopics in the article, or it needs to be cut down, because there is a lot to read there. --Vyran 23:52, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed 1000%. Some sort of organization would be wonderful. Please help out and be bold.--Flawiki 03:53, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

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Here are some subtopics and a little reorganization -- remember that people look into encyclopedias in order to read a lot of information on a subject -- otherwise a picture book would do! This is just skimming the topics included and there are many that should be included to make it more complete! Will keep working on it... --- k

p.s.

Will remove the box for the Penner Building until the issue blocking it is resolved so that it does not cause confusion.

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cultural identification and early history

Returned the Spanish Point portion which was removed without discussion and placed comments at the edit regarding the motivation. The original statement stated clearly that it was about the area, not the city. The issue of what is Sarasota is the basis and I believe that one must consider the use of the information provided here. Is it merely for those who live here and figure that the current boundaries (which did and will change with time) should restrict inclusion of information that deals with historic associations or should we consider the people who are seeking information about the area (perhaps potential or current visitors who ought to be able to find useful information about the area)? All of Longboat Key was part of the city at one time, until John Ringling begged to have the boundary changed to help him save tax obligations -- shall we ignore the history of that time because of that? Was the name, Osprey, in existence in the mid-1800s? What was it called by the Indians who piled up the mounds that exist all along the bay? We are dealing with ten thousand years of human occupation along Sarasota Bay and should not focus closely on the current (and temporary) boundaries. We are dealing with an area that was passed from one European nation to another before becoming part of the United States. The larger view will be more informative to those seeking information.

Spanish Point is a valuable tool used to show what it was like for pioneers on Sarasota Bay and we have allowed every example of that in the current city boundaries to be destroyed. The organization that developed and runs Spanish Point was founded by Sarasotans because it is part of our cultural identity. --- k

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Actually, if you read, the article is about the city itself. Also, there is way too many sections and a lot of WP:NPOV violations. Osprey is Osprey and it's not in Sarasota. Thank you and maybe you should invest in a username. --CFIF (talk to me) 14:07, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Ks contributions are informative and appear encyclopedic. Yet for those elements not actually in the city limits I'm in agreement with CFIF and wish they'd be considered for the broader Sarasota County, Florida article. Perhaps sub-sections under a "history" section could take care of some of the internal organization issues in this city article, I'll try to take a crack at it at some point if no one else has done so.--Flawiki 21:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

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I am not interested in an editorial war over an article in Wikipedia, and would be glad to delete the material I volunteered for a better understanding of the community... it is easy to go right back to the earlier version if that is the consensus about what I wrote,

Spanish Point, one of the earliest pioneer locations preserved in the Sarasota area, is where Bertha Palmer made her winter residence on land originally homesteaded by the Webb family, while retaining most of their structures. The site has been listed on the National Register of Historic Places and is open to the public for a fee. Tours of the compound explore the natural history and human occupation of the site through archaeology, historic preservation, and reenactment of some pioneer activities.

Just for the record, however, I went to the Sarasota History Center today and found the following in the 1946 Karl H. Grismer book, The Story of Sarasota. It is considered the most authoritative book on the history of Sarasota.

"Illness brought a party of nine persons from Utica, New York to the Land of Sarasota in August 1867. The newcomers were Mr. & Mrs. John G. Webb and their five children, Mrs. Webb's sister, Emily Graves, and her father, Deacon Graves."

"Bill Whitaker took Webb to the spot [Webb settled upon and] called Webb's Point..." That now is called Spanish Point. He continues,

"Webb has the distinction of having built and operated the first "hotel" for tourists in the Land of Sarasota."

"The earliest settlers along the bay said they lived at Sarasota long before the town of Sarasota was born."

"Back in the early eighties [1880s] there was not a town or even what might be called a village in the entire Land of Sarasota."

"The only post office along the coast in the Sarasota Bay region was at Abbe's store located on the present Osprey Avenue near Hillview..." That post office was called Sarasota.

So Webb's post office address was Sarasota until 1884 when according to federal records, "Webb petitioned for a post office named Osprey..." [a name he made up rather than asking for the name of Webb Point because he was not allowed to request an address with two words].

I think that it is important to note that the introductory portion of the Wikipedia article raises the ambiguity of the term, Sarasota, and discusses the broad area thought of as Sarasota. That was present before I added to the article.

After discussing the broad perception of Sarasota, why should the article then proceed to limit itself to the current location of a fluctuating boundary in discussion of history and prehistory? That boundary is altered frequently as property owners petition to be included or excluded from the boundary. John Ringling requested, and was granted a significant reduction in the boundary.

At some time one must begin to discuss the cultural entity perceived as Sarasota because the city was not created until 1913! At that time the city included all of Longboat Key and was part of Manatee County. What is called Siesta Key used to be called Sarasota Key.

One paragraph about the most informative site regarding the archeological analysis of mounds left by the earliest inhabitants, pioneer life, and the residence of the largest property owner and most influental promoter of the area seems relevant to me and I realize that the limitation logic can be taken to extremes.

The area we are discussing was first named by Indians and some assert that it already was called Sarazota when the first Europeans arrived. Certainly the Spanish used that name, it's on their maps. From Blackburn Point to Manatee River was labeled Sarazota in the 1700s. That name endured through possession by the English and again by the Spanish. Once the region became a portion of the United States, it was in Hillsborough County. Later it was in Manatee County. Then Sarasota County was created in 1921. Would one segregate the information to those counties for the time periods?

The difficulty I have with the limitation suggested is that pioneers never lived in Sarasota County! It did not exist at the time. In what article should they be discussed? Aren't they part of the history of Sarasota?

I can easily move all of the material that does not relate to the current boundaries of the city to other articles. That would include the airport (which is federal property overseen by a joint authority of Manatee and Sarasota Counties and 95% of which is in Manatee County); all of Sarasota Bay, which is governed by Sarasota County; the University of South Florida, which has moved its satellite campus to Manatee County even though that location has a Sarasota street address.

How many people are concerned about the entry? --- k

I am more interested than concerned, and you've added so much good historical meat that it really has to be in WP. Where I guess is the problem, please consider the extra-municipal stuff for the county article, or even a new article concentrating on pioneer-era history in our area. You're of course correct that Sarasota co. did not exist in the historical periods referenced, alas those bits are now Sarasota co's rather than Hillsborough, Manatee, or the city. ISTM the worst thing that could come from this back and forth is that you would get discouraged and stop editing; please don't stop. --Flawiki 18:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

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You don't really get it do you? This article is about the CITY and the area within the CITY limts. Sarasota Bay, while managed by the county, is in between city limits. You can put some of that historical stuff in. --CFIF (talk to me) 12:16, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

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Thanks to Flawiki for the compliment and understanding -- I will have to admit that I was beginning to wonder if it was worth the effort, and am encouraged by your comments to continue.

There is nothing to prevent us from -- defining -- what this article can be and I hope that we can agree upon a method to address the community of Sarasota inclusively, from every angle such as geography, geology, natural history, and human cultures from the prehistoric to the present (including pioneer, Scotts settlement, fishing village, town, city, arts, sciences, sports, intellectual and cultural identification) realizing that what people perceive as Sarasota is not something with crisp edges.

An effort must be made to acknowledge distinctions as they began to affect people, and we must be sure that the distinctions were embraced by those affected. The current city limits should be part of a tidy geographical description that can be updated as it fluctuates. Surveyors are not concerned with human culture. Bertha Palmer considered herself as a Sarasotan. People I know who live one street beyond the city limits still consider themselves as Sarasotans. People I know who live to the east of Interstate 75 consider themselves Sarasotans. People I know who live in Venice and North Port do not, they have another cultural identification. Some people I know who live in the Sarasota portion of Longboat Key prefer to identify with Longboat Key others identify with Sarasota -- it is their choice when it comes to cultural identity.

The cultural aspect of Sarasota is quite complex, rich, shifting, and interesting. Its history reflects that. That is the draw of the community of Sarasota for most. I hope that we can communicate that to those seeking information about Sarasota in Wikipedia. --- k 2006.03.15

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Just a suggestion: consider making this one about the Sarasota area, it is a simple fix. Everyone understands that things do change and evolve in this world. Then all the information is together for those of us who would like as much information as possible. I like the dotted lines that keep all the parts of the topic talk together! ms 3/16/2006

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retrograde

Have been working on other projects and have returned to find the changes in the article of concern. It looks awful. The photographs introduced are of poor quality or lacking in distinction about Sarasota. What is distinctive about a jumbled line of high rises—built without any architectural distinction, save one—seen through the rails of a too high bridge? How can one insert an illegible street sign as a distinctive aspect of Sarasota? I prefer the simplicity of the text to those and am taking them out until something distinctive can be used. We were chugging along pretty well with an introductory image that was as distinctive as we could have—who else has a museum and historic home like these? Even Jeff LaHurd would call them quintessential. The issue of celebrities is back in spades -- most of whom do not live in Sarasota... some of whom are leaving because of what it is turning into... Perhaps the list should be of, notoriety. Hope we can co-operate to restore this article to its previous quality and build upon that to make it better. The red links should take care of themselves as other articles are written or the links are corrected (I will begin to tackle both). Took out the 34243 reference because it is incorrect and misleading. ---- k 2006.06.07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.232.16.147 (talk • contribs) 23:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, losing the celebrity list -- again -- was an improvement. I sympathize with your desire for a better image to replace the bayside one, and wish we had one. I'm not sure nothing is better than something not quite so good though. --Flawiki 00:55, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

You are welcome. If we work together for a good positive article, we will have something to be proud of in the world venue... I have not uploaded any photographs into WP -- have you? We ought to put something from the Sarasota School of Architecture in the article and something of the natural beauty of the bay. Well, all things in time... Sorry I have strayed from this task, but time is short and there is much to do! I will poke around for some good WP photographs that may be implemented. Will keep at it! --- k 2006.06.07

I'm working on putting together a collection of photographs of Sarasota. There used to be an external link but it was broken so somebody removed it. I think it would be good to have something like that back. Maybe we can also add one of the photos to this page too if anyone agrees. Anything in particular you think would make a good "representative" photo of Sarasota? Or do you want to keep the Ca'd'Zan one? I hope to have a good collection put together soon that we can link to.--Auinteractive 14:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey! If y'all could get any pics of historic places, that would be great. I'm trying to get ones of all the Florida ones, but living in north Central Florida, it'll be a while before I can make it down there. They're pretty much all linked to under the Historic sites in Sarasota heading. Thanks! --Ebyabe 14:32, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

K- Maybe you should get an account here, you have certainly done a good job editing. --CFIF (talk to me) 16:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks -- I want to tackle more about the Whitakers, the Scot colony, Gillespie, A. B. Edwards, Owen Burns... there is so much worthy of inclusion... I especially appreciate your edits and understanding when I use a broader stroke to include more background details. I find your contributions in other articles I work upon so some of our interests are the same. I did create an id to write my first article, but can not remember the password. I now try to use a consistent signature in the areas that interest me, which seems to work just as well. So I do not see any value in an editor's id except someone could use the signatures I am using to something I had not written -- what do you think is the advantage for you? ---- k 2006.06.11

First, it would be much easier for a miscreant to type "---- k" than to forge a WP signature. Creating an account makes it much more difficult to fake since it is tied to a login ID. A sig allows everyone to follow your (excellent, in my opinion) work and see your edits sequentially. It allows users to communicate with you outside the bounds of a talk page; for instance, if I were working on an article about Owen Burns, how would I ask you a question or request collaboration? There is no talk page for the subject, and this page would be a wholly inappropriate forum. More info can be found at WP:SIG, but I'll give you what, for me, is the clincher: a Login and a signature are norms for this community and to rebuff those norms is, frankly, something of a snub. Kevin/Last1in 21:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup

This article needs cleanup, bigtime. Much of it is unsourced, and the prehistory section doesn't need to be here - this is an article about the city, not about the general area or Sarasota County. If needed, those sections could go in their own article. The geography and demography sections also need to be moved to near the top of the article, to be consistent with other city/town articles. --Coredesat talk 20:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Your concerns have been considered and resolved previously. Please look at all of the discussion above. This article has been developed through a great deal of discussion, leading to a consensus among editors to discuss how Sarasota came about -- its history -- plans exist for the article to be expanded further, not to cut it back. The early history of Sarasota can be documented from hundreds of years before there was a county or a city (these are comparatively, rather recent). Precedents exist in Wikipedia for articles that go into the detail that exists here, and much greater, such as New York City. We already have a sub-section that discusses the demographics of the contemporary city. ---- k 2006 0709

"k": I'm puzzled. All other articles I can find about cities describe the City, not the surrounding area. Yes, I have thoroughly read the comments on this page and followed it for about a year, but I think your claim to consensus is weak. Your NYC example is perfect; the article deals exclusively with the Five Boroughs, their history and their current status. I don't see why anyone would question the volume of your information at this point, but I see every reason to question the scope. The prehistory and history of an area can be relevant to both a City and a surrounding area, but anything discussed after incorporation needs to be more precise.

I am confident that if you create an article on the Sarasota Area, it will be superb; your information is excellent (even if source citations are needed). However, there are a number of issues inherent in a City article on which it will be impossible to be encyclopaedic if we deal with an "area". For instance:

What is the population of Sarasota by your definition? Where can you source whatever number you pick? How can we assemble demographic data?
On the "Celebrity" issue, if the population is x, is Stephen King included in x? How about Katherine Harris? If not, how can we list them in the article; if so, see question #1.
What are the edges of Sarasota as you define it, so we can find the area and the lat/long? Do they include the large swath of southern Manatee County with "Sarasota" postal addresses?
Do we include Bee Ridge, a distinct CDP, or not? How about Longboat Key which is undoubtedly part of the area described, but is officially a town in its own right?
How can we include Sister Cities if we aren't discussing a City? Would I have a Sister City if my house were off Cattlemen Road?

Again, your information is excellent, but I am not sure how much of it belongs in an article about the city. It might be wise to use create a fork, with prominent links and summaries here, to contain such info without running into the problems discussed above.

Please note that I don't edit this article and this is my first post to this talk page even though I've followed it for a while. There is a reason for that. I am employed by the City, and do not feel that contributing directly to this article is appropriate (I am not a spokesperson of any kind, and an inadvertent or errant comment might easily be misconstrued as policy or some such nonsense). I am also a Wikipedian, however. By adding extensive info on the general area, I think it will make it difficult for editors to be accurate with demographics, geographics, and governmental details. k's info is superb; let's find an appropriate home for it! Kevin/Last1in 21:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Beaches

Looks like more should be added about our beaches, ask most visitors and they usually comment on how nice the beach is... unless its Red Tide time.

As per Siesta Key Chamber

"In 1987, Siesta Beach was judged "the World's Finest and Whitest" beach. Made from 99% pure quartz, the beach sand is soft, floury and cool to the touch." Jgregg 03:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Slavery and race relations in Sarasota

I have never been to Sarasota but just stumbled about in the article on "Jim Crow laws" - Sarasota seems to have been one of the most recent places still setting up a "Jim Crow" ordinance. I am not from US but it looks a bit extraordinary. What happened to that? How come that in 1967 still still was a topic in Sarasota? Must have been a hot topic....

Quotation: "1967: Public accommodations [City Ordinance] — Sarasota passed a city ordinance stating that "Whenever members of two or more…races shall…be upon any public…bathing beach within the corporate limits of the City of Sarasota, it shall be the duty of the Chief of police or other officer…in charge of the public forces of the City...with the assistance of such police forces, to clear the area involved of all members of all races present."" --Kipala 19:02, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

interesting, what is the source, so we all can examine it...

Sorry that was not clear enough: I found it in the [[Jim_Crow_laws article on Jim Crow laws] in the English wikipedia which has, however been changed< if you go back to the version of 2nd November you see it. --Kipala 16:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Sarasota (area)

Just curious. Is the general consensus to keep this as strictly the City of Sarasota, or to maybe go with the before mentioned Sarasota (area) ? I hope the latter. (Iraqiman 04:53, 13 December 2006 (UTC))

Citation

This entire article needs to have citations. Remember, there is no original work here on Wikipedia. (RossF18 05:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC))

Perhaps, but making the article look like crap with 200 citation markers isn't very constructive either. Jgregg 04:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The look is there so that the article is not deceiving as completely verified information. If you want the article to improve, please feel free replace the fact markers with citations. (RossF18 05:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC))

Name

This may have been addressed already, but where does the name Sarasota stem from? The rumor has it Sara was the name of de Soto's daughter, so that's how they named Sarasota. Any verification? (RossF18 03:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC))

According to this the origin is unknown, but may be Indian. -- Donald Albury 22:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

This article needs work

While I don't want to discredit all the work that has been done, where is this article going? The only substance to it is some history, which is good, but really should be a smaller element of the whole article. Maybe we could have a seperate article about all the history. I really think that we should be going with a Sarasota (area) article instead of one dealing with just the city limits. The history of Sarasota is not just in the city limits, plus a lot of stuff people refer to about Sarasota is not in the city limits. I started doing some work on the Sarasota County article because I didn't like the way this one was going and felt I could do nothing to fix it. I also don't want to create and work on a Sarasota Area article if there is no consensus to have it. I am not directing this at anyone in paticular.

Also, you can't say the City of Sarasota is famous for beaches on Longboat Key or Siesta Key. Longboat Key is a seperate municipality ,and Siesta Key Public Beach, which is the famous part, is a county park in unincoprated parts of Saraota County. Iraqiman 02:25, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I forgot. Riverview HS is not in the city either. Iraqiman 02:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions

This page should function as a concise encyclopedic entry on a single topic -- namely the City of Sarasota. On that basis, I think the voluminous discussion of "Historic" Spanish Point should be moved to the Sarasota, County entry. As someone noted, it's in the City of Osprey, not the City of Sarasota. Whether some Sarasota County residents informally think of themselves as living in "Sarasota" is besides the point. The somewhat tedious general history section relating to the county as a whole should also be moved. The history of Sarasota as a city should begin with its incorporation as a city -- period. The discussion of the city's first settlement, incorporation, etc., should be incorporated at the beginning of the historical section; it does not belong in the introductory paragraph. The Sarasota School of Architecture is a major chapter in architectural history. I haven't checked -- but it deserves its own separate entry, if it doesn't have one. Such a page should be created, and the section on the Sarasota School made more concise. While the Riverview controversy is important, the reference feels like somebody getting their two cents in on a current hot political issue. It does not feel like an encyclopedia entry.

A sentence in the first paragraph currently reads:

>>Its official limits include Sarasota Bay and several barrier islands—some natural and some artificial—locally called keys, facing the Gulf of Mexico.<<

The only artificial island is Bird Key, which is in Sarasota Bay. Lido Key separates it from the Gulf of Mexico. It is not a barrier island. There are no artificial barrier islands.

Well Bird Key is not the only artificial island in the bay. Almost all of Lido and Longboat were reconfigured in the 1920s by Ringling and later the Arvida Group. If you go to the Historical Archives you can trace the changes made to the bay over the 20th Century, which were significant. It was originally largely mangrove islands and the barrier islands were pock marked with small harbours, etc. Lido was an entirely man made project but for the part of the island containing the beach. Siesta Key has also greatly changed over the years. Parts of it are now submerged by the bay and the gulf, various hurricanes reshaped it. For instance, as late as the 1890s there was no New Pass. I also agree that the bit on RHS is not encyclopedic. Instead the article should discuss simply the controversial nature of historic preservation in the community, and the lose of its status as a progressive community due to overdevelopment.

71.101.128.66 05:38, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

News items section

I don't see how this section belongs in an encyclopedia. I don't think we have lists of murders that occurred in the city in other articles. Without some well-sourced information on how the items listed are relevant to the article about the city, they don't belong in the article. -- Donald Albury 23:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Eliminate useless words

Slowly but surely, this article is getting cleaned up. I still think there should be a Sarasota City article and a Sarasota County article -- for the sake of clarity, brevity and objectivity.

For now, the piece is still rife with groaners enough to make Strunk and White start spinning in their respective graves:

>>When first settled, Sarasota was designated as part of Hillsboro County. It later became designated as part of Manatee County when that new county was created. In 1921 Sarasota County was carved out of Manatee County, which then extended south from the natural southern boundary of Tampa Bay. The new county distinguished the booming Sarasota Bay area and its keys. The city of Sarasota was designated as the seat of the new county bearing the same name.<<

It reminds me of Mojo Jojo from the Powerpuff Girls:

"It is I who you will obey! Obeying commands is what you'll do! I will give you commands, and you will obey them!"

Mojo Jojo has designated the county that is Sarasota County out of Hillsboro County which is the county it is designated out of!

formatting and cleanup

I went through this article and performed a little housecleaning. I reorganized the article to better conform to the WikiProject Cities format, and removed a boatload of peacock terms. The whole article read like a chamber of commerce brochure; it's better, but it still needs some attention. The media section could use some love; there are plenty of radio stations in the city, and you can cite the city's Arbitron Market rank for the radio section.

I didn't touch the history section, which needs some attention but is at least sufficiently fleshed out. That section is large enough that it could be summarized on this page, and the entire history section could be made into its own page (History of Sarasota, Florida); see History of Miami, Florida and History of Fort Lauderdale, Florida as examples; they are linked from the main Miami, Florida and Fort Lauderdale, Florida articles.

The other section that needs some pruning is the list of historic buildings. I'd suggest going through the list and removing any that are not on the National Register of Historic Places listing. If they are on the NHRP, there is an article on Wikipedia for them; User:Ebyabe made sure that every Florida historic place has at least a stub article. Once you have thinned out the list, try to add some prose to tie it all together. As per the Manual of Style, prose is preferred over bare bulleted lists. (Added later) This list is extensive enough that it merits a separate subpage of its own, similar to what I suggested for the history section. However, the Blalock House is in Venice; I'd suggest removing it from the listing.

Finally, this entire article is almost totally devoid of references. Find references for everything, and add footnotes. Every paragraph should have at least one citation; ideally, every factual assertion will have a reference. There are three Florida cities that are Good Articles to look at for comparison: Coral Springs, Florida, Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and Miami, Florida. All three will give you ideas for developing this article. Horologium t-c 04:36, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Fix section titled "Current Overview"

current text (1/24/08, 12:30 PST):

Current Overview

Sarasota County has grown from a population of around 150,000 in 1980 to over 365,000 residents in 2006. The area has added around 10,000 new residents a year. Migration to Sarasota used to be primarily from the midwest, but now its new residents come mostly from the northeast.
Real estate prices accelerated six years ago and led the nation in appreciation. Investors flooded the market and drove the market up along with newcomers. The market cooled down 18 months ago as investors tried to dump their properties.

This should be revised to include absolute dates/ranges rather than relative time frames. "Six years", "now", and "18 months" could be stale references at this point as far as anyone could tell without specific knowledge of the topic. Could someone with this specific knowledge clean this up for proper encyclopedic style? It reads like news as it is now, but I can't tell when the news was written!

Thanks, Erie lhonan 20:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

That section certainly violates the guidelines at Wikipedia:Manual of style#Precise language. Since the section is unsourced, I'll just remove it. -- Donald Albury 23:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Historic Clean-up

The time has come to make this article fit encyclopedic standards, as opposed to considerations of sentimentality, publicity and prejudice.

The purpose of an encyclopedia is to organize information hierarchially and by category. I.e.: An article about New York City should be an article about NYC. Someone researching NYC should be able to operate on the working assumption that the set of information contained in the article = verifiable data about NYC. As opposed to, say, a discussion of Brooklyn because somebody living in Brooklyn "feels" he lives in New York City and has a strong sense of identity as a New Yorker.

Someone (I haven't gotten around to the rigamarole of registering yet, or I'd do it) should bite the bullet and move the voluminous discussion of history (including the jolly portion about Florida Neanderthals chasing bison around on ancient cachements on the prehistoric continental shelf) to a Sarasota Area (or West Coast Florida Area) article and have done with it.

Doing this would also serve to clarify the historical narrative itself. Definitions of cities/counties/states/countries are consensual by definition; much of history concerns the fight over those definitions. I.e.: is Deadwood an illegal town in the Sioux nation, will it be part of Montana or South Dakota, etc. A discussion of a region in pioneer days necessarily deals with a time when the political definitions in the region are up for grabs.

A helpful link could point the way, of course.

Within the City of Sarasota article itself, as this is a discussion of the City of Sarasota, by definition, the history of the City should begin with the city's creation. As it reads now:

>>Sarasota was incorporated as a town in 1902 with John Hamilton Gillespie as mayor. It was replatted in 1912 and incorporated as a city in 1913. Following the end of World War I, an economic boom began in Sarasota. The city was flooded with new people seeking jobs, investment, and the chic social milieu.<<

The history segment should start there.

Facts about the contemporary areas of Sarasota which are not part of the incorporated City of Sarasota should be moved to the Sarasota County article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.228.133.202 (talk) 14:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Sarasota as Paradise

(moved discussion to this page)

I must strongly question your determination, 83d40m, that Sarasota has a nickname, "Paradise". Virtually every settlement in south Florida has been called that by developers, and probably by the local chambers of commerce. Advertising, though, does not make a nickname. Do high-schoolers indicate to newcomers that they were born in Paradise? Does someone suggest, in Bradenton, that they go watch a new movie in Paradise? No, of course they don't. Unless you can find decent evidence that this terminology is regularly used outside of promotional literature, Sarasota should be left without a nickname. Tim Ross (talk) 22:23, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Au contraire -- one even may purchase tee shirts and such there that are labeled, paradise, historical programs presented there have used the term as well, and the local press and magazines often use the nickname when discussing their own community. Self-use is more important to me for nicknames, because that is where traditions arise -- check with the Sarasota History Center. Although it is not of high importance to the article, I have restored the nickname again (which, by the way, was not placed there by me, but by another editor), because of its consistent use since the 1920s. -- 83d40m (talk) 23:11, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, "paradise" has certainly been applied to the city as a descriptor and continues to be used that way by fans and other proponents of Sarasota. Nicknames, however, are terms used as identifiers: "How far is it from Beantown to L.A.?" I maintain that "Paradise" is rarely, if ever, used to refer to Sarasota in the absence of the name "Sarasota". If you can find some evidence that the purported nickname is actually used, on any kind of regular basis, to identify the city, I'll be happy to leave it alone. If you can't, then it's not really a nickname and should be removed. Tim Ross (talk) 09:54, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Google Results 1 - 10 of about 3,280,000 for Sarasota - Paradise -- thats 3 million 280 thousand results associations, how many are you looking for? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.196.169.194 (talk) 14:35, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Bradenton and "Paradise" gave 683,000 ghits, and Tampa and "Paradise" turned up 6,930,000 for me. You will find large numbers of hits when you pair up city names with "trash", too. Clearly this method provides no information about nicknames. Support for the nickname usage should demonstrate the use of "Paradise" as a substitute for the given name, not as a description of the location. Tim Ross (talk) 16:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

A cursory inspection of articles published by the Sarasota County History Center provides a good documentation of the use of the nickname. A call to the center affirmed that it would be considered a nickname for Sarasota used for many decades. This information can be woven into the article readily, to support the use in the information box.

Journals of Yesteryear on Sarasota History Alive

Slow, Wobbly Trains Ride into Paradise

by Lorrie Muldowney, the historic preservation specialist at the government office, and published by the web site Sarasota History Alive among its Journals of Yesteryear project. The article also was published in the Sarasota Herald Tribune as part of a regular column provided by the History Center for public information. The article discusses the railroad built from the Manatee River to downtown Sarasota

"The development of sound and reliable transportation systems was an important first step to opening the Sarasota area for commerce and development.

Sarasota's earliest rail line built in 1892 and nicknamed the "Slow and Wobbly", did little to accomplish these goals... The Slow and Wobbly was a financial failure even though it could cut two hours off the three-hour wagon trip over sandy roads between Sarasota and Bradenton. Its susceptibility to overturn, an irregular schedule and unpleasant conditions kept away all but the most adventurous.

Less than three years after the Slow and Wobbly arrived in Sarasota, the tracks were pulled up and sold to help overcome some of the venture's debts. It would be more than 10 years until Sarasota had a successful railroad..." -- the bold effect in the typography is mine

another publication of note also adds insight:

http://nsgl.gso.uri.edu/flsgp/flsgpm99004/flsgpm99004_cover.pdf

"Sarasota Bay has been described as “Paradise Found” because of the profound natural beauty... The first explorers as well as the first European settlers of southwest Florida were drawn to Sarasota Bay because of the diversity and abundant productivity of the region’s natural resources. These same attributes continue to draw settlers."

written by Margaret Davidson - Director, NOAA Coastal Services Center

for

U. S. Department of Commerce

National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration

Coastal Services Center

2234 South Hobson Avenue

Charleston, South Carolina 29405-2413

And then there is the new Google search destination that includes a nice map of

Paradise Plaza,

Sarasota, Florida 34239

Think this is more time than necessary to devote to the issue... 83d40m (talk) 22:10, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry, 83d40m, that you have spent so much time and effort in showing that "paradise" is sometimes used metaphorically with reference to Sarasota. Of course it is. It is sometimes used that way with respect to most places in Florida. ("metaphor" on Wiktionary: "The use of a word or phrase to refer to something that it isn't, implying a similarity between the word or phrase used and the thing described, and without the words 'like' or 'as'.")

The issue, though, is whether it is a nickname for the city. ("nickname" on Wiktionary: "A familiar, invented given name for a person or thing used instead of the actual name of the person or thing.")

In spite of the good intentions of the Sarasota County History Center, Sarasota has no nickname. Pretending that "Paradise" is actually used rather than "Sarasota" seems, at the very least, pretentious. If you can ask someone in Arcadia for directions to "Paradise" and they point out the way to Sarasota rather than laugh at you, than "Paradise" would clearly be a nickname for Sarasota.

I will place a hopeful ref tag on the current use of "Paradise" in the article, and see what happens. Tim Ross (talk) 14:15, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Too Much History

This article reads too much about history, with almost nothing about the city or regional economy, demographics, or anything of current substance beyond the real estate crash. Who lives in Sarasota today? What do they do there? What drives the local economy? What about the numerous high end hotels like the Ritz Carlton and the Intercontinental under construction?

Tourism is obviously a major factor in the local economy, but that is hardly discussed in the present tense.

This article reads like it was written by the Sarasota Historical Society. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.127.98.2 (talk) 20:05, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed!texxs (talk) 12:34, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Ditto, can we remove it now? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.91.70.49 (talk) 19:12, 17 April 2009 (UTC)