Talk:Sari Gelin

Origin

persian version!

I am from the region and I have not ever ever heard this song to be signed in persian! could someone give some source that this song was ever song in persian until recently! it is very foolish to add such thing to an article about a folk song! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.100.100.69 (talk) 18:38, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I believe the Persian lyrics are not folklore. It was only used in Hossein Alizadeh and Dijvan Gasparyan's version. It should be removed or be mentioned in the article.Pouyakhani (talk) 15:15, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Georgian origin

Girl isn't Armenian. Her appearance isn't like to Armenians. Sarı (blond, yellow), gelin (bride). we know, armenians isn't blonde. And I read in Turkish sources, she is Georgian girl and she is daughter of the Georgian King (maybe eristavi) of Penek (now is Erzurum's village, see georgian bana cathedral))... it is not my claim, a Turkish history scholar's claim. for more information (article in turkish) [1]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emyr93 (talk • contribs) 15:43, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Plenty of turks, especially some history "scholars" can claim anything just to remove so "beloved" by them the armenian word from the particular context.. so who cares? Besides you can't call georgian people blond, i've been there and i've noticed a slight or no difference at all between armenians and georgians. Only an ignorant person would suggest that there are no blond armenians. So you should know- they are. I wonder, what going to be next when "georgian version" will be proved wrong.. who are the next "blonds" of Ottoman Empire? Altered albanians, bosnians etc.? Cherkess people, or other caucasians?--P i x i e _talkiε! ^e-talkiε!! 11:47, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Azeri vs. Turkish origin

it' sazeri, Turkish or Armenian, mountain merged with the Turkish word for bride. Parishan, the song comes from Erzrum and is about a Turkish boy who fell in love with an Armenian girl. The history of the song is known to this day by the natives of Erzrum. VartanM (talk) 04:28, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

In fact the language of Erzurum can be called Azeri : in Turkey , some of the eastern provinces is called Turkey's Azerbaijan . (See Azeris in Turkey)--Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:16, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

VartanM, urban legends are a nice thing, but this is Wikipedia. Plus, as Alborz Fallah said, there has been a heavy influx of Azeris into Eastern Anatolia for the past three centuries. Parishan (talk) 08:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The name also fully translates in Turkish and it was originally from Erzerum, so Turkey comes first, then it should follow alphabetic order. VartanM (talk) 05:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It may be from anywhere. And the Azeri version tells nothing about Erzurum, or a Turkish boy, or an Armenian girl. This Iranian source, among others, calls it a famous Azeri piece ("قطعه معروف آذری"). Parishan (talk) 03:21, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

You know Turkish, I'll assume good faith and suppose that you did not found any Turkish sources on the web which document its true provenance. VartanM (talk) 06:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Even if I did, what does it matter? Would you accept an Azeri source documenting the Azeri provenance of this song? Parishan (talk) 06:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

According to one version of "Sari Gelin" the song goes back to the time before Islam . But some musicians believe that this work has a history of 150-200 years . Intonation , the song is very arxaikdir - 3-4 is based on the note . At the beginning of the seventh century, "yellow " symbolize the word "big " , "mountain " was understood . In the understanding of ancient Turkic "yellow ", "high " , " gentle " means. We express these two concepts - "color " and " Yellow siminə touch my heart " is used as a . Oguz tribes before Islam was a common culture . Historical sources show that the tone of the musical culture of Oghuz more developed and matured over time the song came to us . The 35 -year-old girl went to her mother elciliyə not come to grandmother . Apparently , one of the first times I love reading young rock hit " You do not tell me the moon, grandmother die , the yellow of the bride ," he formed a musical . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gabrail Mirzayev (talk • contribs) 13:52, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Turkish vs. Armenian origin

From a linguistic approach, this song proves to be of Turkic origin. As "Sarı Gelin" is perfectly translatable into Turkish and Azeri. Also, the Armenian word 'sari' was most likely a loan word from Turkic. It is impossible that the Turkic word 'Sarı' was derived from Armenian. As it is not only used in Azerbaijan and Turkey, it is also used in Turkic nations far away from Armenia such as Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan. The minority (Armenians) could never have had such an immense impact on the Turkic language.K.yusifov (talk) 05:36, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Yet the Turkish and Azerbaijani languages have many loan words from Armenian (like Xaç/Haç, or Turkish "örnek" from Armenian "orinak" or, oddly enough, pezevenk) (for more, search for the book "Armenian Loanwords in Turkish" by Robert Dankoff in Google Books) . The Armenian lyrics have nothing to do with a blonde maiden. Also, keep in mind that since Turkic was the lingua franca of the region for centuries, it was commonplace for Armenians to sing in the Turkic tongue while incorporating many of their own Armenian words (think about Sayat Nova). The original may have been an song sung in Turkic by Armenians with many Armenians words mixed into it (hence the "Maiden of the Mountain" version of the definition of Sari Gelin), and later adopted by local Turks, which then spread all across the Ottoman and Persian realms. Don't forget that several Turkish folk songs from Eastern Anatolia were actually Armenian folk songs sung in Turkish. Sari Gelin is probably the most famous example (according to Armenians and Turks). The bottom line is, no one truly knows where the song comes from, and we will probably never know, so let's not fight senselessly fight over this and use the most objective methods: alphabetical order and give each nation its own space on the article.Kentronhayastan (talk) 03:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Azeri vs. Armenian origin

I would like to see a source for the claim "Sarli Galin ...is a Azerbaijani folk song". I agree there EXISTS an azerbaijani version but about the ORIGIN of this song (whether evolved from other sources or not) I am not sure. I will delete the current sentence if I do not see an RS (and WP:V) source claiming the Azerbaijani origin of the song. Or maybe the sentence should be written as "Sari Galin is an Azerbaijani version of a folk song of unknown origin"--Xashaiar (talk) 17:53, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

No need for that. I have gone one better and found a source by a Turkish author who explicitly states that Sari Galin was of Armenian provenance.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 20:30, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know the source, but is it reasonable for an author to be that explicit, that certain, about the origin of a folk song? I think I'd be more comfortable with "of probable Armenian origin". Meowy 21:04, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Turkish Documentary & Mazandarani origin

Hello Meowy, perhaps you have heard of a notorious documentary that has been indoctrinating Turkish schoolchildren for the past year and a half, titled Seri Galin? The tables are flipped, for the Armenian genocide is denied and massacres by Armenians against Moslems are emphasised and blown out of proportion. Of course, the selection of the title is obvious.

The song Sari Gelin is about a Turkish boy who fell in love with an Armenian girl. Such a relationship is forbidden by the girl's father but they end up escaping together. The father learns about this and kills the boy; the girl kills herself and they are thus reunited in paradise. The documentary's rational is Armenians and Turks loved each other and living peacefully for six hundred years and, Armenian leaders (an allusion to the father), disapproved of this and started butchering the Turks! I suppose the allusion to the Armenian tragedy is the girl's suicide. The words Seri Galin can be rendered in Azeri, because the language is similar to Turkish. The song spread to Iran and in the Caucasus because it showed that even enemies can love each other regardless of what their leaders think.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 15:02, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes I know of the documentary, and the controversy about its distribution - but I hadn't picked up on the symbolism behind its title. This "Christian girl falling in love with Muslim man" symbolism is quite common though. There are lots of varients to these stories - sometimes it is the beautiful Armenian daughter of the commander of a castle who falls in love with the handsome Turkish warrior-leader of the besieging Turks, and who opens the castle gates at night to let the invaders in. Sorry, but I don't believe the spreading "because it showed that even enemies can love each other regardless of what their leaders think" reasoning - to me these stories (in their origin, with modern PC interpretations removed) are more like symbols of complete subjection: the conquered community cannot even retain possession of their females. Meowy 15:49, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I find that conclusion equally convincing. I wish I could have access to more literature on the topic, that is, of course, if it exists.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 17:42, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

On an even greater scale, the idea of star crossed lovers breaking social mores is a topic explored extensively in world literature and song. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 17:54, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Take it easy. But I see a Mazandarani influence in the music of Sari Galin: quite clear to my ears. Of course Armenians were in Mazandaran some centuries ago. I don't claim I am right, just my thoughts.--Xashaiar (talk) 15:09, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Just a thought: I don't think modern day versions will be anything like the original version – folk songs evolve massively in terms of style as time progresses. The reality is that no one will be able to conclusively prove the origin of this song. Also, it's quite likely that it is a derivative of one or more previous folk songs of the region, as happens throughout folk song history. Anyone stating anything more specific is just speculating. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 15:31, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Azeri provenance revert

I've reverted back the statement that it is of Azeri provenance. As previously stated, songs handed down through oral traditions vary in many ways and spread through many geographical and ethnic areas. The quoted source is simply not enough to conclusively prove that the song is solely Azeri. The manner of oral traditions and the lack of recording technology makes it nigh on impossible to assert that any one particular ethnicity is the owner of this song. The fact that it has long been popular in many regions emphasises this. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 17:11, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

What was wrong with the quoted source? It is third-party and seems credible. Parishan (talk) 21:25, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

It is a website in Persian, while there is a reliable source on musicology in English. Gazifikator (talk) 04:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

But if a credible source is saying that it has an Armenian origin, that should be mentioned. Meowy 19:46, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough but there's no need to be absolute about it. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 22:02, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Unknown origin and rejacting Azeri and Turkish origin

The recent reverts: The reverts by users who apparently have no use of what is being discussed is unacceptable. Do all parties agree to reinstate Fedayee's version which leaves the origin unknown? Obviously, neither sides is ready to have the others' claim remain there. Does this compromise satisfy both parties? --The Diamond Apex (talk) 04:37, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Dorood. I am glad to see an Iranian Armenian in Wikipedia. The source you mentioned is interesting and should be quoted along with any other valid source. But as other users mentioned probably the tune of this song is now lost in antiquity. As the creator of this article, simply the best thing to do is put WP:RS origin. For me the origin of the song is not an issue, since it is really universal. About aggressive language, in these sort of articles (anything related to the republic of Azerbaijan/Armenia) seems to be the norm. Admins should take a closer look and take harsh actions. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 04:37, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Guys this is funny. This is a folkloristic song in Iran, Republic of Azerbaijan, Armenia and Eastern Turkey. I do not think it was popular in whole Turkey. I think it is baseless trying to find out to which ethnic groups in belongs. Folkoristic music in Armenia, Republic of Azerbaijan and Iran are similar anyhow.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 22:31, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I should not have started this article. I was just impressed by the trilingual version of Alizadeh and I was naive to make the article. Actually seeing all the discussions it created, I wish I did not create it. But after reading the discussion, I doubt there will ever be a clear origin for folkloric tunes like these. So people should just follow wikipedia policy on WP:RS.--Nepaheshgar (talk) 04:37, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I asked for RS and V but I see this which I reverted. The reasons. 1. Not RS nor V (at most an opinion). 2. the sentence "According to Azerbaijani composer Rahila Hasanova, who relies on researcher Mirali Seidov and arts critic Nasir Rzayev, "Sari Galin" is a part of ancient Turkic ritual, associated with sun worship. This is attested by the analysis of folklore material of ancient Turks." has some problems if unsolved contradicts the Azeri claim of it. What is ancient turkic? The interwiki link does not provide a definition for it. if by ancient you mean according to the usual usage, then the Sari Galin would be of Göktürks-Chinese origin. This must be clarified.--Xashaiar (talk) 20:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Here is a credit on Mirali Seyidov from Azerbaijan Soviet Encyclopedia, vol. 8, p. 329 (brief translation): "born 1918, Azerbaijani literary critic, Doctor of Philological Sciences (1970), Professor (1979). Scientific researcher at Azerbaijani Academy of Sciences (1982), senior scientific researcher at Nizami Literature Institute (1960-67). Participated in the IV International Turkological Congress in Istambul." And I linked the words "ancient Turkic", don't understand why you challenge it. brandt 20:33, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I guess I could not ask my question clearly. The person you talk about is not the subject of my question. I asked about the meaning of "ancient Turkic". Because if I understand you correctly, you want to add information supporting an Azeri-Turkic origin of the song. But what you have added points to something outside central Asia proper.--Xashaiar (talk) 20:39, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

That is a good point. Basically it says the song is popular in the Caucausus, Anatolia and Near East. But it does not say Central Asia or Siberia. The Turk speaking groups that entered the region (Seljuqs and even assuming occasional incursions by Jewish Khazars) were not sun worshippers. The Seljuqs were Hanafi Muslims. The Balaban/Duduk/Mey is not part of Central Asia or Siberia either. So the song is probably local to the Caucusus and Anatolian region and rules out anything with sun worshipping ancient Turks (since such groups did not exist in the area of the Caucusus). It can be played on other instruments but it seems to be natural for the Balaban/Duduk/Mey. I have added a Mehr/BBC report though which is a news report and also one from Zaman newspaper. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 05:51, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Ancient Turks were no sun worshippers and this song has nothing to do with it anyway. Ancient Turks were shamanist and their gods included animals too. Roughly said they had a religion like Hindus. Sun Worshippers is a simplistic interpratation of parthians. As Nepaheshgar also said the instrument and composition of this mucial piece reveals its origin as a local song, belonging to Northwestern Iran, Southern caucasus and eastern Anatolia. It is defeintely not an ancient Turkic = East Asian song. And I do not get this Brandmeister. He has vconverted to Catholicism, hates perso-Arabic acript and loves latin Script. he probably wants to be European and sees his native cultyure as inferior, but his insistence on East Asiatic Chinese Mongolian origin of his native folklore sounds funny too me and illogical in this respect--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Şanar Yurdatapan

To use another well known example is the tale of the Armenian legendary hero, David of Sasun. I've read that his exploits were based on a 7th century Armenian noble named Theodore Rshtuni but his story was an oral tale until somebody decided to put it into print format over a century ago, well over a millenium since it was first heard of. Much of the details and the content probably changed over the centuries before it was written down.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 17:42, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Şanar Yurdatapan is a famous dissedent who was once stripped of his Turkish citizenship for anti-Turkish statements. Did you actually take your time to read the source you are quoting? The person uses statements such as "favourite song of Turkish fascists" and claims that the Turkish lyrics for this "Armenian song" was written only recently. This raises question as to how this song might have ended up with slightly varying lyrics in the Caucasus and Iran where is it performed by Azeris certainly for more than 50 years? Parishan (talk) 21:51, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Isn't there a rule set by Wikipedia to prevent users to slander individuals with such vile colours? I know Şanar Yurdatapan and he, along with several other activists, was stripped of his Turkish citizenship after the 1980 coup in Turkey. How dare you tarnish a man who has a reputation for advancing the cause of civil liberties in Turkey. You are merely repeating the claims made against him by the ultranationalist and Grey Wolf factions in Turkey, who target anyone who wants to see the state to modernise. I want to believe that Wikipedia does not serve as the grounds to recycle right wing propaganda and outright character assassination.

The man was a famous composer before he had to leave Turkey and a vocal criticizer of nationalistic and fascist songs so prevalent in Turkey. He's actually an expert on the history of Turkish music and their history of censorship. Your reply and selective uses of his writings will not go unanswered. Had you ever the opportunity, like I did, to attend one of his speeches, you would know that all these lies are formulated to ruin him and are absolutely groundless. He's the director of the Association of Freedom of Expression and a strong advocate of Turkey's modernisation. You should retract your statements lest someone actually perceives your comments are in support of the ultranationalists.::

And for your information, the term 'modern' here does not imply what you claim: read once more the context under which the words were used. The man is a specialist, and it was published in a book. You cannot substitute this with an obscure website which has no quality control or a peer review check. Websites can publish anything they want, and this can't compare with someone who specialises in Turkish

cultural studies. As for your edit summaries - the first one is unacceptable; as for your second, I did read your discussion with VartanM, but I have yet to find any valid arguments brought forward by you. In fact before the 1990s, there was not a single publication supporting the notion that the music was Azerbaijani. There are in fact several books which state it being Armenian, or at the very least as Turkish, describing a love story with the Armenian 'bride.' It's preposterous and silly to claim that this song has an Azerbaijani provenance because it conflicts with history and then the context and content of the song itself do not point in any way to support such a notion. If you're going to answer, please do so without making disparaging remarks which are known to be baseless fabrications against authors whomdo not agree with you.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 00:41, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Whatever impression you got of this author based on your personal interaction with him is your business, of which I have no interest. I strive for academic neutrality, so you being "shocked and appalled" with my assessment of this source does not really influence this discussion in any way. And no, there is no rule on Wikipedia that will forbid me to say what I have said, so please avoid this method of argumentation in the future. It won't work on me.

He might be ten times more of a composer, but the mere fact of him meeting so much opposition and his choice of words with regard to this particular topic makes him appear extremely biased. Using the world "fascist" out of context and applying it to someone who is nationalist at best is not particularly a sign of neutrality. Parishan (talk) 21:25, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Parishan, I’ll have you know that your ranting and remarks like ‘won’t work on me’ are far from constructive. I have absolutely no interest in making you do anything. I just clarified that your mudslinging of a certain individual is actually baseless and are mere fabrications put forward by ultranationalists. Furthermore, your quotation entirely misses the point and is clearly out of context. The full comment in the parenthesis was 'one of the favourite songs of Turkish fascists' and concerned the song ‘Yaylalar’. You should take the time to read the page. The term was used (you'll even see that most of what seems too biased are because the author is far from being fluent in English and the editor did nothing to rectify the situation) and acquaint yourself with the context. Yaylalar is one of the favorite songs of Grey Wolf sympathisers. You could clearly hear it even during the small celebrations following the killing of Hrant Dink by some Grey Wolf sympathisers. The song is used in army training in Turkey and Kurdish witnesses of the shocking picture of chopped heads reported that it was the only thing they could hear from the pictures’ authors. It's not the first time Şanar Yurdatapan brought that song and the reason for him to do it was to note the irony of the fact that it was used when committing abuses against Kurdish citizens, for the origin of the song is Kurdish itself. I hope your apparent aggressiveness of language was a simple misunderstanding, because, frankly, I won't engage in these conversations if you continue with the same livid language. Cheers.

Who is Sanar Yurdatapan

Sanar Yurdatapan is a composer and a human rights activist. He is not a historian or philologist. The second source claiming Armenian origin of the song is a newspaper. Both sources are non-specialist and thus not reliable. Clearly, the song's origin is obscure, and cannot be established. Indeed, the song itself is in Turkish or Azeri. How can one establish its Armenian origin? On which basis? I suggest that any claims of origin coming from unreliable sources be removed. If a truly specialist source is found, we can use it. Otherwise, referring to human rights activists and journalists as sources on song origins is not good. --Grandmaster 05:02, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Please, read the previous section of discussion page. --Movses (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:20, 24 October 2009 (UTC).

I read. How a composer and a human rights activist, and a journalist in a newspaper can be sources on a song origins? Please explain. Neither of them are experts in history, and neither conducted any peer reviewed research about the topic. I'm sure there are journalists and composers in Turkey saying the opposite to what these people say. So what? Such people cannot be considered experts on such issues. Grandmaster 15:50, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Grandmaster, this source presented by Movses does not prove anything. Furthermore, Sunar Erdem and Yavuz Baydar are just journalists. Please explain how they are credible sources.K.yusifov (talk) 05:34, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Movses, if you are going to use those sources again, please explain your use here. Those sources are just opinions of journalists and authors. I can find just as many unreliable sources claiming that it is of Azerbaijani Origin. I recommend that you make a new page with the Armenian title of the song. As, this song, with the Turkic name is of Turkic (Azerbaijani) origin. K.yusifov (talk) 21:04, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

K.yusifov, this is not how you accomplish things on Wikipedia. Enough sources have been provided to establish a consensus that Sari Gelin was a song of probable Armenian origin. This consensus has been in place for quite some time and to arrive here and edit war and then tell others to discuss your new reverts is counterproductive. The smileys do not show to me that you are being serious so please elaborate your arguments and avoid the edit warring. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 04:11, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Marshal Bagramyan, this is exactly how you accomplish things on Wikipedia. You are to explain your edits clearly in the discussion page. These sources you speak of are not credible. Why does it matter how many sources there are if they are not credible? Also, as the title of the song suggests, it is clearly of Turkic origin. The armenian version of this song has a different title and different lyrics. It is a different song. If you feel strongly about the armenian version of this song, create a new page with the armenian title of it.K.yusifov (talk) 00:34, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Lyric

Yellow Bride [Translated into English by Ms. Farida Aghayeva, From: Azerbaijan International]

Don't braid the end of your hair, Don't pluck the flower while it's young, yellow bride. We were born to love each other; You are the onlyone; on earth, in life, in the sky. You are my sunshine, my fire. I fell in love with you on a moonlit night The sun, a man and yellow bride; The only star, land and your breath, I love life, life is you. My eyes that see you are full of eagerness, You came into my dream like a ray, yellow bride. What kind of love is this? They won't let me marry you. What should I do, what should I do, yellow bride? What kind of love is this? They won't give you to me. It's me, looking for you among the stars. Answer me, don't break my heart! I will breathe with your warm breath, I will remember you all my life, Enough! dry your tears, don't cry! Don't keep the fire in your heart too long, Your destined happiness is written on your forehead. Pure love within one night. But this is only a dream and you are in my dream, You are my yellow bride among my wishes. What kind of love is this? They won't let us marry. What should I do, what should I do, yellow bride? What kind of love is this? They won't give you to me. It's us, only us and the sky, You came to me in this utter night. The light woke me up, And we got separated among the stars. Oh, God, hear my crying, I felt this sharp pain in my heart, Love is a game and I was winning, I couldn't imagine such an end. But you wanted death, You achieved your goal in the end, yellow bride. What kind of love is this? They won't let me marry you. What should I do, what should I do, yellow bride? You are my yellow bride, You are my yellow bride. Along this valley, Give the lamb back to me, shepherd... You are my yellow bride...

PS: I am wondering maybe the song is about a guy’s (maybe a shepherd) love for his sheep! Sheep is yellow; has warm breath; its wool get curly like braided hair; and pluck the flowers when eating them!

There is no reference in this lyric to a woman or human and things like long blonde or black hair, and the name Yelow Bride doesn’t mean anything in Azeri (that is for sure).

He even asks “What kind of love is this?” What does he mean by that question? Is it a strange love? Is it an unusual love?

The closing line gives us the main clue;

Give the lamb back to me, shepherd...

You are my yellow bride...

Who is he talking to? Is he telling the lamb that she is his Yellow Bride?

--88.97.164.254 (talk) 19:45, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Changing sourced information

To the individual's who keep changing sourced information, discuss here why instead of constantly changing it without reason. 2602:306:CF36:6280:3D83:7A1D:EC35:AF67 (talk) 19:42, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Request for PC2 removal

@DangerousPanda: This page still has indefinite PC2 protection. Wikipedia:Pending changes/Request for Comment 2014 closed with "no consensus." Please consider downgrading the protection or removing it altogether. Based on the lack of recent disruptive edits, heavy watchlisting in case the editor with 13 edits comes back plus the use of PC1 protection to protect from new socks should be enough. Alternatively, very heavy watchlisting and no protection (with a hair-trigger to restore some level of protection) might be enough. I'll keep this page on my watchlist for the next few weeks. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 21:53, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Left a reminder note on DangerousPanda's talk page. He might not have received the initial "ping" so this may be his first notification. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 19:14, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

• Ok, I have fixed it to PC1. I cannot fathom why someone didn't simply come to my talkpage and say "oops, you accidentally enabled PC2". And no, I did not receive the original Ping. the panda ₯’ 00:19, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Politicising the Article

Dear Armenian users please refrain from abusive editing to suit the political nature of the song. I believe the original version keeps the issue at neutral. Constant use of "facts" to support an Opinion is against WP:NPOV. As well as deleting information like Erzurum Picture and changing the text to politicize it. Also please refrain from adding origin because it again neutrality as previously it is stated that the issue is contested why add only Armenian claims? again if you want to discuss it take a look at talk page the point were already discussed! Agulani (talk) 08:56, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Azerbaijani users have been carrying out the vast majority of vandalism in this article, just look at the history. Thanks for the message anyway. We'll make sure to keep this article as neutral as possible. It would be nice if you could tell your compatriots to do the same. Kentronhayastan (talk) 06:53, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

External links modified

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Unwaranted change of title from Sari Gelin to Sari Aghjik

Editor User:HarColl162 has unilaterally and without any consultation or discussion changed the title from "Sari Gelin" to "Sari Aghjik". This is contrary to all agreements of discussing drastic changes or favouring one specific ethnic background of the song to another as high;y undesirable as there are many acrimonious and conflicting claims to the origin of the song. This edit will certainly be considered one of the most controversial edit in this atmosphere of rivalry and ethno-centricity. What reason the said editor gives is even more puzzling: "Name [meaning Sari Gelin] is misleading about the origin of the song, thus the new title [Sari Aghjik] will be more reflective of the history". It is the exact opposite actually. Uniquely insisting on "Sari Aghjik" as such to be the authentic title is the one that will create misleading information and clearly does not reflect the history of the song which is favorable to the title Sari Gelin. Even in Armenian, the prominent version was "Sari Gyalin". I suggest returning immediately to our generic Sari Gelin adopted from the beginning, and if need be, start a discussion about which name to adopt which I assume will be overwhelmingly "Sari Gelin". werldwayd (talk) 19:14, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 9 May 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved back to original title. As this is clearly controversial, please do not move again without discussion — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:13, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

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Sari Aghjik → Sari Gelin – Highly controversial move to a specific Armenian title instead of the generic widely named title Sari Gelin. Reinstate the original name which carries huge concensus over a highly controversial and ethno-centric Armenian later title. werldwayd (talk) 06:57, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Highly controversial move to a specific Armenian title "Sari Aghjik" instead of the generic widely named title "Sari Gelin". Original name "Sari Gelin" has been used ever since the article was established in Wikipedia with little resistance or opposition even from Armenian editors. "Sari Gelin" carries huge concensus over a highly controversial and ethno-centric Armenian later title. The title "Sari Gelin" is even used in the original Armenian versions many times as "Sari Gyalin" (thus authenticity of title we were previously using, with the uniquely Armenian "Sari Aghjik" (the girl of the "mountain" - "sar") as being an adaptation and being lesser known even in Armenia itself). The song originates definitely from the times of the Ottoman Empire and would probably have carried the Turkish-based title in its origin. Incidentally "Sari" did not mean "mountain" as in the present Armenian title (sar - mountain) but actually "yellow" as in Turkish (sarı -yellow), another proof that "Sari Aghjik" is just an adaptation parting from the original. We should stick to original title as a matter of concensus and recognizability of this song by all ethnicities singing it like Turks, Kurds, Azeris, Armenians, Persians and many more probably. Our Wikipedia readers would also search it primarily as Sari Gelin as well. But I am forwarding it to discussion to give the colleague who changed it to "Sari Aghjik" the benefit of doubt. werldwayd (talk) 07:09, 9 May 2019 (UTC) werldwayd (talk) 07:26, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

It is equally as controversial and Azeri/Turkic ethnocentric of a title to have the title of this page be solely Sari Gelin. Perhaps putting a title with both Sari Aghjik-Sari Gelin would be more representative title. Variations of that might also be the option and be more reflective again of the history of this song, which as you mentioned varies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HarColl162 (talk • contribs)

Using a dual title could be a solution to avoid more controversy. But "Sari Gelin" is so prominent as compared to "Sari Aghjik" that the notion of making the two version as two absolute equals may not be very "representative" of the actual fame of the song as "Sari Gelin". In any case, I am not fortright against a dual naming per se, but leaving it uniquely "Sari Aghjik" as now, is highly misleading. werldwayd (talk) 02:40, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Dual Title Change - Solution

Okay I think that if you are not against a dual naming then putting "Sari Aghjik - Sari Gelin" as the title is a good solution. HarColl162 (talk • contribs)

I am not against a dual naming. But the decision was formed by an independent colleague Martin User:MSGJ, talk) as: "The result of the move request was: Moved back to original title. As this is clearly controversial, please do not move again without discussion" (See box above). So the decision was to revert to "Sari Gelin" and not making more moves without discussion. werldwayd (talk) 22:04, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 28 June 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 07:48, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

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Sari Gelin-Sari Aghjik → Sari Gelin – Not sure why the title is named after two names, isn't WP:COMMONNAME the case here? Probably it was moved some years ago, so I propose this rule. Sari Aghjik gives "53.900" results on google while Sari Gelin gives "11.000.000" results. Also WP:DEMOCRACY, don't asking for your votes, give a logic opinion why it should stay with two names. Beshogur (talk) 08:26, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Clearly "Sari Gelin" is a much earlier title and has more historicity. "Sari Aghjik" is a later title and is only known in Armenia. Even in Armenia, "Sari Gyalin" is also used commonly if not prominently. I think "Sari Gelin" as a stand-alone title is more appropriate. "Sari Agjik" can be a redirect page. werldwayd (talk) 06:04, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Name change back to Sari Gelin-Sari Aghjik

Dear editors, if the article's name is Sari Gelin then please create another separate article named Sari Aghjik. Naming the article just Sari Gelin shows its belonging to a certain culture and country, meanwhile its origin is controversial. Let musicologists decide its origin and prevalence, but definitely not the Wikipedia editors who choose the title based on which title can be convenient and easy to read. Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 08:01, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Persian's calls it "Dāman Kešān", so we should make a triplet name out of it? My view is, Sari Gelin is the common name. see WP:COMMONNAME. Also it is recently moved, you can not move back. Beshogur (talk) 08:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

In response to Գարիկ Ավագյան, no, it's not a matter of easy reading, it's not a matter of ethnicity, it's not a matter of culture, but a matter of common name as per WP:COMMONNAME. A simple Google search will show you a vast majority of searches are in disproportionate portion in favour of "Sari Gelin". "Sari Gelin" gives 1,970,000 results in Google search, "Sari Aghjik" gives just 29,400 results only, that's an overwhelming 68 times to one in favour of "Sari Gelin". Even in Armenia proper, we find "Sari Gyalin" is also frequently used as an established title for the song. So "Sari Aghjik" isn't even universally the accepted title in Armenia itself. True, many notable cover versions have been done recently as "Sari Aghjik". There are a couple of recordings in the 1930s to 1950s, much more in 1970s onwards as "Sari Aghjik", and overwhelmingly in the 21st century with the independent Republic of Armenia. Here three beautiful versions as "Sari Aghjik" to show what a beautiful song we are talking about. by Andre , by Garik and Sona, by Emma. All views hovering around 200,000 to 400,000 each for the Armenian titles. So nothing against "Sari Aghjik". It is beautiful beyond belief in Armenian. But the fact of the matter is, even such covers under the relatively new title, are just a novelty and historically come much much later, and never did get the popularity of the "sari gelin" versions have witnessed internationally. All the world continues recognizing the song as "Sari Gelin". Here enormously popular contemporary versions as "Sari Gelin" by Sami Yusuf with 16 million views, by Cem Adrian with 24 million views, and by Aslan & Cem Adrian another 9.5 million , by Selda with 6.6 million. By the way, I am putting all these versions for the benefit of colleagues who just want to discuss the dry subject of a title. But this is more than just a song. It is a timeless masterpiece actually. So enjoy a true historic song. There are virtually thousands of versions by now LOL. Going back, seriously, the historicity of the "Sari Gelin" is more or less established since the 19th century in all literature even when done by Armenians. Now the younger more nationalistic populations on all sides have made it a contentious issue. Read any discussion page and comments, you suddenly realize it is not a song anymore but an online war with curses running abundant. Before it was just a song. Now it's a matter of national pride and acrimonious discussions. Let the musicologists decide, says colleague Գարիկ Ավագյան. But even if musicologists confirm that the song is Armenian from the start, they may well do, but that's secondary, because even with the Armenians, then an ethnic minority in Ottoman Empire, even the Ottoman Armenians would have sung their Armenian song as "Sari Gelin" because they were turkophones. So even the Armenianness of the song does not give "Sari aghjik" the legitimacy as a common title. My final comment, and this will be my last and I will not contribute further to this particular discussion, let others put their own take, most modern-day discussions about the song are so politically motivated, whatever we say, they will never be resolved on our Wikipedia pages. We at Wikipedia don't want to take sides. We go along with our principle of WP:COMMONNAME which is overwhelmingly in "Sari Gelin" favour as a title. werldwayd (talk) 17:04, 15 July 2020 (UTC) werldwayd (talk) 17:14, 15 July 2020 (UTC) werldwayd (talk) 17:36, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

@Werldwayd:, Thank you for the long but clear explanation. Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 20:26, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

actually the persian name for the song is Sari Galin. You don't need to use us to make a point here.

The article name should not be decided by how many views a video on youtube has or how many google hits a specific word has as those have nothing to do with factuality.

If this article is about the specific song then use that specific song's name.

This article is about a folk song with 2 different names, an unknown origin of its melody (although musically it has a very prominent identity) and dubious claims about its lyrics.

If we are supposed to be impartial than we should BEHAVE impartial.

There are many facts and names and terms that barely get any hits on search engines or views.

So if a Chinese artist had sang a version of this song and by the sheer number of the chinese speakers that song's title had more hits on Google you would suggest us to use that name as title name?

I call for the issue with the TITLE be resolved for once as this back and forth is getting annoying.

There was a simple solution to the issue, the rest of the article does a pretty good job in being impartial and keeping things neutral, this should even be mirrored in the title of the article otherwise I suggest separating the articles.

Either full representation in a neutral light or each side goes their separate way. Kane 1371 (talk) 01:41, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

What the hell is "from mountains"?

"Sari gelin" is clearly means "yellow bride" in Turkish. Twisting, twirling, etc. is BS. 73.223.0.150 (talk) 12:36, 27 April 2024 (UTC)