Talk:Sati (practice)/Archive 2

The Extent to which suttee was practiced

I don't think enough weight has been given to the fact that suttee was very rarely practiced and judging by even european numbers, the numbers are probably far less than just regular murders or suicides. Furthermore, the practice was limited to the upperclass, who by all accounts, are a minority in India. the practice was also largely non-existant in the south. India is a big country, and many regions are far more diverse, culturally, linguistically, and religiously than among most European countries. To say that sati was widespread all over india would be to say that in the 20th century, Jews were persecuted by all Europeans, rather than just in Germany and Eastern Europe.

There is also the theory that the practice of suttee actually intensified during the muslim invasions and occupations because Widows were frequently targetted for abuse and remarriage by muslims, atleast the early arab conquerors. I am not sure of the veracity of this claim, anyone else with any other valid information?

I have not changed anything yet, but I plan to and would like to discuss it first. sganjam 21:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

The article does provide some figures, (those referenced figures that I was able to find) and draws conclusions from them. The article does not say that it was always practised everywhere. But the indications are that it was well known in Vijayanagar, even if not necessarily common there. The claim that it was almost unknown in the south seems to be true only of the period after the 17th century. If you find reliable references, please feel free to add and quote them. Imc 21:08, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Parallel in Scandinavia?

I'm a bit puzzled about the parallel made to Scandinavia. I've heard of a single account from Viking Scandinavia which describes the death of a slave girl on her master's funeral pyre. However, the ritual seems to have been rather different since it involved her having intercourse with her master's kin / friends and her throat was slit before the fire was started, so she wasn't burned alive. The cases are related but I'm not sure the parallel is completely accurate. Thoughts anyone? Valentinian ^(talk) 09:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

In the absence of any other references, I'm removing Scandinavia, and also China et.c.. Some of these may be valid entries for the sati article - ritual death of the widow at her husband's funeral, but needs some references. But death of slaves or others is not sati as it is generally understood. Imc 22:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

It is probably better to call it human sacrifice then comparing it to sati.

2007-03-04 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

Yalla Bhatt's Yallajeeyam

The Yallajeeyam written by Yallabhatt(18 c AD?)contains the detailed manual /practical guide to performing Sati ritual. Here are some passages from 'Yallajeeyam' ('Dharmasastra concerning BrahmaMedha'(Death and Afterwards) Codified by Yalla Bhatta)(The book was a 1992 reprint in Telugu from Machilipatnam) :

1.In order to enable the departed soul of the father reach its intended destination(s), his son and others should bathe and worship the Brahmins before making the 'dasa-daana'( ten gifts /presents): 1.Heaven(Swargaloka)by donating Cow+Land +Gold 2.Apsarasa-loka > Maid-servants(daasi-daanam) 3.Reduction in Sins> Sesame seeds 4.Pleasures of Indra-loka&

 Swarga -loka>                  Bed/Mattress        

5 Heaven (Swarga-phalam)> Ghee/Clarified Butter 6.Moon (Chandraloka)> Cloth 7.Heaven(Swargaloka nimittam)> Grains 8.Indraloka Pleasures> Bedstead with Mattress

2 When a devout wife commits (sati)saha-gamana following her husband's death, she gains 30050000 (30.05 million)years of heaven-time for herself as well as her husband.

 One who commits sati saves her husband from the vilest of sins he might have commited.
 Only the Pativrata can commit sati.exceptions are: The pregnant woman, the suckling mother,  woman of loose  morals.
 A Pativrata Woman of any varna can commit sati.  She should take a bath and clean herself.Separate 'mantras' need not not be recited.The   samskara ' being performed for the husband is sufficient for her.
 The procedure for Brahmamedha is the same as that laid out for Pitr-medha. However, after performing the homa with the 'pareyuvaagamsa'-mantra,complete the ten homas beginning with 'brahmana-eka hota' , say "bhartaasarbhriyamaanah",consult with the dead(pretaanu-mantranam),

say 'iyam-naari'(here is your woman), say 'sayaneendrasya'(here she lies down -beside you). The widow should be laid next to her dead husband(she is called the 'preta-patni') say 'suvarnaam gharmam devasyatvaa'and place the vessel made of gold on her two hands, say 'suvarnamgharmam' and place it on her face, say 'brahmendramagnim' -on her eyes, say 'satamniyutah' -the ears, 'suvarnamkosham'- the right nostril, 'indroraajah'- the left nostril, say the sentences beginning 'agniryajurrbhih'and place all the gold vessels on all parts of her body.All other remain vessels of gold should be placed on the pyre... say "mainamagne jyotishateebhih" and set the pyre on fire. conclude with 'sooryamtechakshuh','ajobhagah asahota' pour clarified butter 'Yaetasya 'prayasaayaswaahaa' pour more oil, follow the mantras:'praketunaa harigim harantam','asmanwateeh'-'apyaayasya' jump the pits,'dwayam tamasaspari taranirviswa' for the sun to settle, bathe after saying-'dhaatutustwa'.The rest of the procedure is as per 'pitr-medha'-rituals .

I removed the above passage which had been inserted into the main article. The passage appears to be the same that was quoted on the Indology Yahoo news group last November [1] and would probably be better posted as a simple reference. Given that the source appears to be a Telugu book to which I cannot find any other references, I am replacing it with a simple reference to the Indology posting. (I'm having trouble formatting it in the article.) Imc 21:49, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear IMC, I give below the complete details of the book: 'Yallajeeyam:-Sa-prayoga Dharma Sastram' Translated from Sanskrit by Late Chall LaxmiNrusimha (Narasimha)Sastri, edited by Vempati Kutumbayya Sastri.Published by Challa Nageswara Sastri for Sri Aryananda Mudraksharasala, Bandaru-Bachupeta(Present day Machilipatnam in the Krishna District of Andhra Pradesh)PIN 521 001.Year 1992 The chapter that was posted is actually called: 'Brahmamedhasangrahakaarikah'. Yalla-ji(Yallajee?) codified the Manual in Sanskrit in 18CAD(?) for the use of the followers of Apasthambha school towards performing 'prayaschitta'(penance) (in the event of death). The book in telugu contains the Sanskrit transliteration of the original text with commentary/translation in telugu.The book runs into 393 pages. If you have read 'The Perfect Wife'(Trayambakayajvan's code of conduct for women in 18th CAD ( in Tanjore),then 'Yalljeeyam' is one such text. The text throws several curious facts extant in those days. One chapter is on the rituals to be followed when a pregnant woman dies. Where the woman died with a nine month old fetus in her belly, then the text calls upon the husband and her relatives to cut open the belly, rescue the baby , wash it first and feed it and put it in the care of another woman who is herself a lactating mother . 61.1.252.136 18:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)harappa

Thanks. I've added a little bit to the reference. This is probably sufficient in this situation, the article is already longer than recommended. Imc 22:10, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Devanagari

The Sanskrit word satī in Devanagari is सती. Anyone who wants to add it, just cut & paste. Khirad 01:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Weasel Words

"common understanding that many widows"

Simple Any1

Though this probably seems stupid compared to all of the other arguments, a Simple English would come in handy. Just kinda throwin it out there

Problem Website

Just so that everyone knows, if anything in this article happens to have a chance to be cited from www.hindunet.org/wwwboard/mandir_manthan/messages/381.html Then please remove material from that site. The cite is made from someone who probably isnt Hindu, and is also probably insecure. Nearly all of the information from that cite is opinion. If there isnt any connection between the two definitions, then just dicount this comment.Hornet101 23:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was No move. Duja► 10:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

---

Sati (practice) → Suttee — Proper title per WP:UE. Suttee is unambiguous and is used major dictionaries and encyclopedias in Commonwealth and American English including Britannica[2], Columbia[3], Encarta[4], and others[5][6] (and even Wiktionary[7]).

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support as nominator. —  AjaxSmack  05:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak oppose Strong oppose. First time I see "sutee", the A of Hindu goddess Sati is open, not closed like in sutee (satee would be phonetically valid in English but has no precedent). --Sugaar 02:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. As the person partly responsible for the current name. Further reasons to be posted under discussion. Imc 17:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English states: "Articles that focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally conform to the usage and spelling of that country." If Sati then is the preferred Indian English use of the term, methinks it trumps the preferred usage in Peoria or Woking. -- SigPig |^{SEND - OVER} 16:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Reasons for keeping the spelling 'sati' - Modern Indian usage is largely based on the phonetic (and therefore better) spelling, sati, not suttee. See for instance, the spelling in

• recent laws concerning it - a quick search brings up [8] and [9],
• references on other websites, e.g. [10], [11] (these two articles are at the top of Google searches, and both articles predate Wikipedia)
• usage in modern Indian news reports of recent incidents. For an example of one of the best reported recent incidents, search for 'sati + Deorala' vs. 'suttee + Deorala'. Sati beats suttee by about 9-1.

With regard to the references to Encarta, Brittanica, et.c. to support the name suttee; note that for all these (necessarily) it is a minor topic, and the spelling is likely to be conserved in this situation. For Brittanica in particular, the usage has survived since at least the 1911 version [12]. This 1911 encyclopaedia was used to seed a fair bit of Wikipedia's content, but the usage and spelling of many of the names and terms in it has been modernised wherever necessary. It should take place here as well.

Imc 18:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Good arguments. When widespread English usage changes to sati then the article title will be appropriate. As it is now, seen in the examples above, almost all encyclopedic sources still use "suttee" (nice try with the 1911 but those I cited above are current).

I'm not sure what is meant by "Modern Indian usage is largely based on the phonetic (and therefore better) spelling, sati, not suttee". Is it phonetically correct in English or Indian languages? Suttee is an English word and should be treated as such. It is pronounced differently in Scotland, England, and North America, something not reflected in sati. In that sense, sati is less phonetic in English. Furthermore, if phonteic is "therefore better" then Wikipedia should be written entirely in IPA. —  AjaxSmack  08:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd say it's "phonetically correct" in Latin (latin alphabet has a rather direct correlation between phonemes and letters, unlike English). It also approximates better the Indian (Hindi?) version in Latin alphabet: Satī.

Sati is an Indian term (the name of a goddess) and its versions in English/Latin alphabet (either sati or sutee or whatever) are just transcriptions. English has very strange phonetic correlations and for what I know you can perfectly read near identically sati and sutee and even sate and suti, if you just know how they are supposed to be read.

One important thing is probably that the first vowel is A like in "cat" and not U like "cut", hence the the importance of keeping the sati trascription. --Sugaar 08:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that "suttee" is a transcription. It may have been in the 19th century but it is now an English word in its own right (read the sources given above). WP:UE says use the most common English form for article titles as we do with curry, dungaree, pajamas, bungalow, thug/Thuggee, etc., all words of Indian origin.

As far as indicating the correct pronunciation, that can be done in the first line without using an incorrect article name. (And for North American speakers, sati would likely be pronounced 'sɑtʰɪ, not sa'ti.) —  AjaxSmack  10:25, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

As I see it, imposing sutee spelling is a matter of ethnocentrism. After all India is the largest country of the World that has English as official language. You are focusing in England and the USA but India alone has more English speakers that all the UK (and close to the USA). I believe their opinion does matter as, after all. It is a lineal transcription of a Sanskrit term, that is also the name of a goddess, and that justifies pretty well in my judgement that the Indian spelling is kept.

Furthermore: sati does not exist in England or any other country that has English as primary language, such as the USA, Canada or Australia. It is an Indian ethnical particularity. --Sugaar 22:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

And those are the best arguments for sati. However, the number of English native or daily speakers outside of India (Anglo-Saxon world plus Philippines, SE Asia, Africa) is greater than inside. Theoretically, English Wikipedia users are drawn not only from Anglo-Saxon world and South Asia but other areas as well. Suttee is an Indian ethnic particularity and this is an even better case (relative importance is critical) but that the overwhelming usage in English is still "suttee" still seems to outweigh it. —  AjaxSmack  01:47, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

It is still an Indian practice, not an English or Australian one. When talking about English practices such as fish and chips or the Big Ben logically an English spelling should be used but when dealing an Indian one the Indian English spelling has precedence. It's elementary.

Anyhow, I am not Indian and it's the first time I read sutee, so it's surely not so common. It's not comparable to curry or bungalow, items that have been totally trasfered not just to the Anglosphere but also elsewhere. Nobody in England or Australia practices sati but they may live in a bungalow or spice their meals with curry. This is more like Hanuman, ghee or Ramadan.

I don't expect to convince you. It is obvious that you have your own ethnocentric opinion very clear but you should not try to impose it to the World just because they have less internet connections per capita. --Sugaar 04:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I admitted it was a close call but your own examples run counter to your position on this article. Ghee should be at ghī and Ramadan at Ramadhān while Thuggee (thagī), etc. remain under their English spellings. And it can hardly be considered ethnocentric to expect that English language Wikipedia articles have English titles (it is recommended at WP:UE) any more than it is for Tamil Wikipedia to have Tamil titles. The ethnocentrism lies in telling the vast majority of the English-speaking world that using an English word is somehow not appropriate because it is not an exact transliteration of its progenitor. If you have never seen "suttee," I suggest any English dictionary, the cited links above, or maybe reading Rudyard Kipling's poem, "The Last Suttee." —  AjaxSmack  08:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.