Talk:Scotch (adjective)

A little history on American English?

How did the word "Scotch" in reference to the people of Scotland, rather than the drink of course, survive in American English but not in any other dialects of English? Surely there is a story to be told even if it is just a quick description of how the American English dictionary was compiled to explain the difference. [This unsigned comment by User, 80.41.227.227 - 21 June 06]

it isnt used in other dialects of english because scottish people dont like being called scotch (before you ask how i know this i am scottish and every scottish person i know including myself dont like it)

The obvious explanation would be that it survived (if it really has) for the simple reason that Americans are less likely to meet any Scottish people to set them straight on the matter. --Oolong 17:02, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Working class use in Scotland

"Scotch is sometimes still used by the working classes who often regard Scots as an anglicised affectation" - Says who? Shouldn't there be a source to this claim. I have live in Scotland all my life and have never heard any Scottish working class person use the word "Scotch" instead of "Scots". [This unsigned comment by User 80.41.221.1539, 80.41.227.227 - 21 June 06]

I agree; I have seen historical references for this, but have no awareness of it as a contemporary phenomenon. --Doric Loon 09:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I have taken this out because I too have never come across working class people shying away from the use of 'Scots.' as an 'anglicised affectation' (Where on earth did this come from?) In some of his more anti-Scottish passages George Orwell recommends the use of the word 'Scotch' specifically because it is guaranteed to cause offence to all manners of Scottish people. Rcpaterson 01:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Its in the Oxford Companion to the English Language in an article by A.J. Aitken. It may well only used by auld biddies now though. Still common enough in Ulster though. Perhps rephrase the entry to indicate that that phenomenon is perhaps receding.

84.135.216.35 19:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

If it was ever used in this way, the phenomenon has long disappeared. Ivor Cutler used it in 1978 for comic effect: Life in a Scotch Sitting Room, Vol. 2. I think my grandmother, who died at the end of the last century at the age of 103 and had learnt to use the word in her childhood in Lancashire, may have been the last Scot in Scotland to use 'Scotch' seriously (and she was not working class). In modern times, indeed, the word is used in much the same way as 'Yank', 'Frog', 'Kraut', 'Eyetie': to cause mild offence while allowing the user to disclaim any such intention. I have again deleted this weird claim. Ariwara 10:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary says the following under the entry for "Scotch"; "In the 20th c. the word Scotch has been falling into disuse in England as well as in Scotland, out of deference to the Scotsman's supposed dislike of it; except for certain fixed collocations, (such as ‘Scotch mist’, ‘Scotch whisky’) Scottish (less frequently Scots) is now the usual adjective, and to designate the inhabitants of Scotland the pl. n. Scots is preferred (see Gowers/Fowler Mod. Eng. Usage (1965))." Walter Siegmund (talk) 23:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The correct usage of the word "Scotch" meaning things Scottish, beit products or people, is alive and well in most of the world including Scotland. No Scotch person I know has ever had the slightest problem with it - particularly as it is actually their word. Unfortunately a myth has arisen that it it not proper or that the Scotch themselves will take offence to it. This must be a recent and learned behaviour that has the sole purpose of vilifying the correct word. To claim that you don't like being called Scotch, when you are [and there is nothing at all wrong with being so] seems to wish to exhibit ignorance and to deliberately take offence. I know people who are proudly Scotch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.216.22.194 (talk) 11:56, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

The OED says:

"Uncertainty among the educated classes in Scotland concerning the relative ‘correctness’ of the three competing terms [Scots, Scottish, Scotch] may be noted as early as the late 18th cent., and by the mid 19th cent. there is a growing tendency among educated speakers to favour the more formal Scottish or (less frequently) the more traditional Scots over what was perceived as the more vulgar Scotch . By the beginning of the 20th cent. disapproval of Scotch by educated Scots was so great that its use had become something of a shibboleth (much to the bafflement of speakers outside Scotland for whom this was the usual word). During the 20th cent. educated usage in England gradually began to adapt in deference to the perceived Scottish preferences. Paradoxically, for working-class Scots (as indeed for all speakers of Scots, as opposed to Scottish standard English) Scotch has remained in common use." I can personally attest to hearing the word 'Scotch' used as a synonym for Scottish by Scots. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.103.253 (talk) 18:46, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Whisky

Maybe Scotch should redirect to Scotch whisky? This seems to be the most current use of the term. I'm not sure how to rename this page, however. Givennovel 02:14, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

In my experience Scottish people don't say "Scotch Whisky" or "Scotch Pie" at all - just "whisky" and "pie". - Duncan Sneddon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.41.0 (talk) 11:24, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

It shouldn't. I've heard "pint of scotch" in local pubs (N. E. England). Dsalt (talk) 00:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Robert Burns used "Scotch" as ="Scottish"

See the title of his poem, "On a Scotch Bard, Gone to the West Indies" [1] [2], clearly not a "pejorative" usage. -- Ben ^TALK/_HIST 05:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Scotch-Irish

I was initially amused to find a citation for the use of Scotch in regard to politicians,[3] but actually it appears that the term "Scotch-Irish"[4] is more common than "Scottish-Irish"[5](an estimated 1,190,000 vs. 284,000 hits). Which term is most correct? Mike Serfas 13:52, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Depends on what you mean by "correct" and for which country. Both are acceptable English. If you meant in terms of public opinion (i.e. actual usage), then the numbers speak for themselves (opinions can change over time, however). Not sure why you would be amused even if it was just "Scotch" by itself. That's the common and acceptable term in North America, even embraced by those that fit the description. Outside of America, the meaning can be misinterpreted as referring to ethnicity only. It has more to do with nationality. I never even heard of the terms "Scots" before today. It seems that one or two users are trying to push this word over the Atlantic, which is cool if it is indeed offensive to them, but they are making it appear as if it's already a reality. Wikipedia can be a powerful platform. 75.4.145.158 (talk) 21:38, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Imagined insults

I'd suggest that no one outside (outwith?) Scotland thinks that "scotch" has negative connotations. English people use it innocently, Americans use it fondly. It is a mystery how Scottish people have come to consider that it has connotations. The foul calumny of meanness attaches to Scots/Scottish/ Scotch in general (because of people like John Laws, Adam Smith?) never mind which word is used (the slight tendency in America to use 'scotch' to mean 'mean' is perhaps because 'scots' and 'scottish' are less used generally). To my ears 'scots' always sounds mean and hard and slatey. Scottish sounds more heathery. Scotch happier. 88888 23:57, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Check out the 'Scotch Mist' episode of Garth Merenghi's Darkplace on YouTube. Referring to 'the Scotch' is a tongue-in-cheek running joke among many English people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.202.158 (talk) 14:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Even if it is only Scottish people who find the term 'Scotch' offensive, I think that should still indicate that it is not proper usage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.252.235 (talk) 00:58, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Clean-up

This article seems to have acquired a melange of odd unsourced and unlikely statements, such as the proposition that American lawyers always use the phrase 'Scotch law' (I deal with them daily; they hardly ever do!). I was entertained by the last editor, User:Reginmund, whose user page says he is "proud to be English" and "of Scottish ancestry", asserting in his deletion of the statement that the usage of 'Scotch' was pejorative, that 'Being a Scot, I don't find this offensive at all"(!) and have tried to state a balanced view on this. I have also tried to clean up the paragraph beginning 'Decline in Usage', which has got into a mess due to a combination of (a) wrong use of tags, so that material is invisible, and (b) the inclusion of material which may be interesting but is of no relevance.

On this 'pejorative'/'not pejorative' matter I can only say that the Scottish dislike of the word has been fairly widely (albeit far from universally) known since at least 1908 (see New York Times reference), and as a Scot who works and travels in England and America a fair bit I am very conscious that there is an English usage of 'Scotch' as a genteelly derogatory word, like 'Frog' or 'Dago'; I don't hear it used as a compliment! But I am also conscious that this is not American usage, where it is, in my experience, always innocent. ariwara (talk) 23:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

A J P taylor

I'm not sure what makes the "pre-emminant" AJP Taylor an expert on Scottish matters considering the horrible way in which he dismisses Scottish culture in some of his work.-CM

Entirely agree. This is why I deleted that, but I was reverted. I think this SHOULD be removed - or possibly kept as a minority view mentioned somewhere further down, but not highlighted like this. And the "eminent" bit is POV. I'll chage it. --Doric Loon (talk) 09:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

In fact, the A.J.P. Taylor quote is the only properly referenced statement in the whole article. Chrisieboy (talk) 11:02, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Bear in mind Taylor was writing over fifty years ago and is specifically talking about English usage - and the broader thrust of that introduction makes clear this means "in England" rather than the language. However it does feel a bit like a shot in a mini-linguistic war. You see similar rows today (including on Wikipedia talkpages) about a traditional name being the "English name" [sic] of particular countries that have renamed themselves. Timrollpickering (talk) 11:09, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Scotch Tape

This should be mentioned too. 75.4.145.158 (talk) 20:51, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation

The confusion between Scots and Scotch (the latter being on the one hand disparaged by Scotsmen and -women who are Scots speakers; and on the other, apparently used by them in speech) arises out of a still-current local prounciation variant: a consonant followed by a final S causes that S to mutate into Sh. Thus, mince becomes minsh, a pronunciation I can attest to having heard my grandmother (born Glasgow Calton, 1917) use; and Scots becomes Scotsh - or, to the non-native ear, Scotch.

Those in search of citations should look in Billy Kay's The Mither Tongue, where he references this passim.

Nuttyskin (talk) 18:24, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

"Scotch (the latter being...disparaged by Scotsmen and -women..."

I have to wonder if this is invariably true among folk from Scotland. Here in Australia I have now been exclaimed over by eleven who lack the thick Scottish accent I have heard in Edinburgh and Glasgow. (Where, be it said, a substantial proportion are themselves or their ancestors were from Ireland: as so was Gaelic). All exclaim over my obvioiusly being Canadian where, they assure me, there are more Scotch than in Scotland (and so-expressing it). Is the Scottish-versus-Scotch distinction perhaps a Lowlands issue? My western Canadian grandparents and their siblings were all Gaelic-speakers and not one of them used "Scottish." Indeed, I discover that many south-Bougainvilleans, years after my time there, carry my name: apparently it is still remembered that I demanded at a school staff meeting that the Australian school rule be abandoned that, as in my grandparents' time in Canada, students be punished if caught speaking their own languages rather than English, they at least being allowed to speak it on weekends. Masalai (talk) 12:41, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

What? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.102.253.144 (talk) 13:51, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

"It was the native Scots who rejected the usage of "Scotch" which had been adopted from England after the 1707 Act of Union." Certainly not entirely so. I took a large painting from Port Moresby into an art store to be mounted and framed. The framer had a Gaelic accent and I exclaimed to him that that was the first language in my family till the 1970s but we have a slightly different term for our ethnicity. He responded, "Oh no. Far more of us in Canada than in Scotland [Gaelic speakers were from the northern hills and were expelled during the Highland Clearances] and we follow them: we call ourselves Scotch!" Masalai (talk) 06:25, 13 January 2015 (UTC)