Talk:Seku Amadu

Peul & Fula

I've changed Peul, which is French, to Fula. No problem with French en français, but it confuses readers in English to have different terms for the same group. If we use a term from another language the natural choice would be to use the Fulfulde/Pulaar term, Fulɓe.A12n 22:40, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Spelling

The spelling is highly variable.

• Seku, Sekou and Cheikhou
• Amadu, Amadou, Ahmadou and Hamadou

The most common (Google) appears to be "Sekou Amadou". Aa77zz (talk) 16:39, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was merge into Seku Amadu. -- Aymatth2 (talk) 02:19, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

---

I propose that Amadu's Jihad be merged into this article. Given the lack of available information the topic can easily be covered by the "Jihad" section in this article, which already gives more than the stand-alone article, and gives sources. This is not an irreversible decision. If enough information shows up to justify a stand-alone article it can be split out again, perhaps with a better title. Aymatth2 (talk) 21:42, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

• I strongly support merging the articles. There is little risk that the combined article will become too long as the available information is very limited. There are two related articles that use some of the same sources: Massina Empire and Hamdullahi. Aa77zz (talk) 08:28, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merger proposal II (Amadu's Jihad)

Wow, that was quick. If I read it right, merger proposed 15 Feb. and executed 23 Feb.? For the record I would not have supported the merger. The jihad was an armed conflict that had specific details that the Amadu's Jihad stub did not yet include. I strongly suggest that if the aforementioned is not reinstated, that a new article on that conflict, however titled, should be created.

It is worth noting that there is also some overlap between two other articles related to Seku Amadu's career, namely Massina Empire and Hamdullahi, however these also should neither be merged with each other nor with this article. The historical Hamdullahi was a town that has retained some significance.

As a general rule I think that (1) merger proposals for specialized or less widely known topics should have longer discussion periods, given that the few who might have more knowledge of them may not get around to the issue so quickly, and (2) that articles on African topics when short may be assumed to be stubs and not necessarily reflect lack of either importance or further information that could be used to expand them.--A12n (talk) 06:58, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Edits on names; added succession box

I reverted the name forms of Seku Amadu's successors to those more commonly seen in the literature and used locally in Mali. Also put two variant forms of his name in relation to languages in which they are used (French version; and Fula version seen in Bintou Sanankoua's book on Masina). Also inserted a succession box, though the title will need modification.--A12n (talk) 10:46, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Arabic & Fulfulde names

I back-built the Arabic script version of the transliterated Arabic name in the opening paragraph with reference to the article "أحمدو لبو Ahmadu Lobbo" in the Arab Encyclopedia. Am suggesting to move the Fula language (Fulfulde) names to the more prominent positions given Seku Amadu was a Pullo.--A12n (talk) 09:45, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

The issue of names is complicated enough to merit a separate paragraph to explain and "disambiguate." Again, as important as the Arabic names are in Arabic language sources (which in turn are important for scholarship on the region of that period) and despite Arabic being a prestige language, these names should be introduced in that context. The Fula names are central, given that he emerged from in a primarily Fulaphone community, and one important related piece of information missing from the article currently is that he was a Bari (one of the 4 main surnames, sometimes termed "clans," of the Fulɓe).--A12n (talk) 02:25, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Hid the portion of a name listed as the Fula version - "mo Muḥammadu mo Abi Bakr Lobbo." This looks like a transliteration of Arabic, but in any event is not Fula orthography. Would caution against using it as if it were Fula. I took a risk in back-building Arabic versions of Arabic transliterations, but in principle (even if with errors that need correcting) those would correspond with the original written text. This curent issue is in the nexus of issues relating to Fula naming customs, Seku Amadu's names (which in part echo genealogy and in part have been transformed by Arabic sources), and orthographies that is dealt with in the next section.--A12n (talk) 04:25, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Draft new section on names

This needs work but something like this would help the article: Naming customs of the period did not depend on a single legal name by which one is formally known, such as we are accustomed to expect today. Commonly, sons were named with reference to their father's name. In the case of learned and prominent individuals in Fula Muslim societies of the Sahel during this period, Arabic sources also recorded their names according to customs in that language. The name "Seeku" in Seeku Aamadu is actually the Fula version of an honorific (from the [undefined] Error: {{Lang-xx}}: no text (help)) that he acquired later in life. He was born Aamadu Hammadi Buubu in a family of the Bari "clan." His father, Hammadi Buubu, died when he was young, so he was raised by Hamman Lobbo, his father's younger brother.. Some sources use Lobbo or Bari in referring to him. Arabic sources refer to him variously, such as [undefined] Error: {{Lang-xx}}: no text (help) and [undefined] Error: {{Lang-xx}}: no text (help). --A12n (talk) 02:50, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

"We are accustomed to expect" implies an assumption, perhaps false, that the reader comes from a country that follows the Northern European "given names - surname" convention. It would be useful to have an article that explains Fulani naming conventions, which this article could reference. This article should simply give the name in Fulani and Arabic, a footnote briefly explaining the components, and a pointer to the more complete article. As a side note, "Seku Amadu" sounds a lot like "Shaykh Ahmad" to me. I have to wonder whether the title would be better if it were a bit more specific. Aymatth2 (talk) 03:51, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed re a better way of expressing it - but even in the same region today, the "carte d'identité," or the customs I've seen in China with names there, imply a kind of fixed naming that may not have been the case in Maasina & vicinity before European rule. Without having studied it in any detail, it seems that names may have been by a different set of criteria - context, relationships, and perceptions. One of the personages in Maasina was given the surname "Suutura" (as I recall), meaning to elevate, due to his character. The name "Lobbo" I think may be the same lobbo in Fulfulde meaning good or beautiful (but not beauty in the sense of pretty), was "inherited," rather than a family name as such. Never heard a clear explanation on that. The "clan" Bari (or Barry; aka Sangaré in the Manding milieu) of which Seku Amadu was part would today be considered the family name, but doesn't seem prominent in the accounts of Seku Amadu and descendents. As for comparisons with Shaykh Ahmad, it is the same but different - at the very least in pronunciation (and the WYSIWYG contemporary orthography of Fulfulde). But the difference is there. Like John, Jan, Jean, Juan, Ivan, etc. - which are both the same and different. As for uniqueness, one might compare a name like King John - without any modifier, the simple title and common name in the (core) Anglophone world likely call to mind one particular monarch. Seku (or Sékou) and Amadu (or Amadou) are common given names in much of West Africa today, but the combination, while not being unique, is still recognizable, if much less widely. Anyway, would prefer to have more input before considering adding a component (and which) to the title.--A12n (talk) 19:49, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, the recent Jeune Afrique section on Fulas entitled "Planète peule" referred to "Sékou Amadou" (without modifier or extension) among other key leaders of the Fula-dominated states of precolonial West Africa. (Jeune Afrique, #2721, 3-9 mars 2013, p. 25) --A12n (talk) 05:06, 15 March 2013 (UTC)