Talk:Self-governance of Singapore

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Untitled[edit]

Hmm, I think a good expansion point would be to elaborate on how exactly some aspects of governance like internal security were shared, and other matters of doling out powers according to agreement. Elle _{vécut heureuse} ^{à jamais} (Be eudaimonic!) 19:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Image copyright problem with Image:DavidMarshall.jpg[edit]

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Requested move 28 December 2019[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved as there's no consensus — Wug·a·po·des 19:29, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Self-governance of Singapore → Independence of Singapore – "Independence" is the more correct term and would be consistent with other "Independence of" articles. Oeqtte^[t] 02:33, 28 December 2019 (UTC) —Relisting. — Amakuru (talk) 23:47, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Oeqtte^[t] 21:33, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above asserts a WP:NDESC WP:COMMONNAME, but the article's content covers more than formal independence, that is, after Singapore's expulsion from Malaysia. If and before this move is actioned, the article's focus will have to change and cover only Singaporean history from 1965. Vycl1994 (talk) 16:37, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Independence of" articles may still extend far beyond formal declaration (e.g. Independence of Finland) and the changes you are suggesting would be better covered in the article Independence of Singapore Agreement 1965. However, the term "self-governance" has more to do with the act of governing than a mere state of independence, sovereignty or autonomy, and ought to be changed. If you have suggestions for a different name please let me know. Oeqtte^[t] 21:33, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Articles on independence should be titled with "independence", and "self-governance" ultimately is pretty much just a synonym of independence. Red Slash 05:49, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Independence happened in 1965. This article covers 1946-1965. There is room for a new article focused solely on the transition to independence in 1965, but that is not this article. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:23, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@SmokeyJoe: See above. How does this justify using the name "self-governance"? Oeqtte^[t] 23:48, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

From 1946-1965, Singapore was largely self-governing, but not independent of Malaysia. For "independence", I would primarily look at independence in foreign affairs, as well as legally, if not de facto. The scope of this article is predominantly 1946-1965. If it were titled as proposed, the article would need to backtrack from the title in explaining the details of non-independence. That would not be good. "Self-governing" is the correct term. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:36, 21 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I should like to point out that the article Independence states Independence is a condition of a person, nation, country, or state in which its residents and population, or some portion thereof, exercise self-government, and usually sovereignty, over the territory, which is consistent with the use across all "Independence of" articles. There is no reason this article's scope would have to change under the proposed title, just as there is nothing significantly unique to justify its nonconformity with titling trends across other articles. If you can demonstrate otherwise please share your thoughts. Oeqtte^[t] 00:57, 21 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"On 9 August 1965, Singapore separated from Malaysia to become an independent and sovereign state".

http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/history/events/dc1efe7a-8159-40b2-9244-cdb078755013

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%20563/volume-563-I-8206-English.pdf

You are using an unreliable source (Independence, Wikipedia is unreliable), and you are violating WP:SYNTH to come too your conclusion that Singapore was "independent" prior to its independence. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:14, 21 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please remain calm, there is no need for grand accusations. If you would ask for sources I may provide, however it seemed rather clear that your claims conflate independence with sovereignty. Bealey, Frank; Johnson, Allan G. (1999). "Sovereignty". The Blackwell Dictionary of Political Science. p. 306. says of sovereignty: "The term cannot be synonymous for complete independence". Yes, in 1965 Singapore became an independent and sovereign state. This does not mean the prior autonomy is outside the scope of independence, albeit partial. My main concern is that you have not demonstrated how the proposed title would contradict the content of the article. If you can provide material for this I would rather this discussion stay constructive than become argumentative. Kindly, Oeqtte^[t] 02:05, 21 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a source that says Singapore was independent prior to 1965? Dictionary definitions will not do, per WP:SYNTH, in the face of sources stating that independence was obtained in 1965. If you want to argue WP:CONSISTENCY, what are the other "Independence of" articles? I think you do not have a case for the rename. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:34, 21 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still not sure why you're bringing up WP:NOR in relation to titling policy, you might want to check out the essay WP:What SYNTH is not. Regardless, here are just a couple journalistic sources for you (emphasis added): "Excerpts from an interview with Lee Kuan Yew". The New York Times. Aug 29, 2007. Lee Kuan Yew, who served as prime minister of Singapore from 1959, when it gained partial independence from Britain Abdoolcarim, Zoher; Chowdhury, Neel (Mar 22, 2015). "'Father of Singapore' Lee Kuan Yew Dies at 91". Singapore gained partial independence from the British in 1959, then became part of the Malaysian federation in 1963. These are also academic sources which I have not included here that use the same language, but hopefully this helps. Oeqtte^[t] 10:45, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It fits my position. A qualified independence is not enough, and Singaporean independence is 1965, and thereafter. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:17, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

"State of Singapore" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect State of Singapore. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Matthew hk (talk) 23:38, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]