Talk:Seljuk (warlord)

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Untitled[edit]

This article is very poorly written, it does not even say when Seljuk was born. the thing at the bottom says c.1000, but the text talks about things forty years before that. so it should be re-written. I would, but I have no information about it at all.Rcduggan (talk) 16:11, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. There are contradictions that need to be addressed.Nostradamus1 (talk) 17:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I could probably do it, but are there any good reference sites that could be used?Rcduggan (talk) 18:58, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would caution agains using any web sites as a source for any article. Publications of expert scholars should be used. The historical information on Seljuk is not that clear. I added what Grousset and Findley wrote. I am sure there a lot of stories and myths about Seljuk especially among Turkish circles. Let us include only what the scholars say and keep speculations out. For instance, currently there is an image. Is it a depiction of Seljuk or of a Seljuk prince? If it is the latter it ought to be taken out. Nostradamus1 (talk) 18:02, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Religion[edit]

The article mentions that he converted to Islam. I would be interested to know what he was before conversion.

The default central Asia nomadic religion was Tengriism. There may not be a source on Seljuk's specific previously held beliefs though. — LlywelynII 17:28, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Name[edit]

Origin of name[edit]

Is the name Selçuk/Saljuq derived from the (millennium-earlier) Seleucus? Tomer ^talk 19:00, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No. Salchuk is a Turkic word from Central Asia. Turks used this word much before ever meeting Greek. I believe it is originally name of a legendary bird of prey in shamanistic mythology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.233.25.207 (talk) 01:31, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

[citation needed]. Alexander and his hangers on were in central Asia a thousand years plus before this guy was born. That said, I'm pretty sure the name is transcribing various forms of a hard J and not any form of Y sound, so it's hard to see any linguistic connection. — LlywelynII 17:29, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology[edit]

Anyone knows English source about his name? TDV IA says his name either means sal (small river boat in Turkic) or sel/sal (flood, from Arabic), and the -juq (-cik) being diminutive. (like Saray-Jük) They're citing these: Marquart, s. 187; Barthold, s. 92; Rasonyi, III/10 [1939], s. 377-384; İA, X, 353; but I have no idea which one is which. found this but can't find the rest. Beshogur (talk) 20:58, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology[edit]

The "small clean man" is very vague and does not tell much about the actual meaning. It is a poor translation. I recommend you read the whole source. It is said that the meaning is close to "temizcik". Abcdefg9583 (talk) 07:25, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe stop adding info and stick to what the source said? Beshogur (talk) 08:49, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

When you use the diminutive darling, it is used a term of endearment. It does not mean small dear man/woman. "Temizcik" is obviously used for endearment, which is later stated in the source. Abcdefg9583 (talk) 10:26, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not your "darling". Also I added that at the first place, apparently that's true. My excuses. Beshogur (talk) 11:22, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Another good example is the word "Mehmetçik". "Mehmetçik (lit. 'little Mehmet', "little" here denoting diminutive endearment rather than actual age) is a term generally used to affectionately refer to soldiers of the Turkish Army. It is similar to the colloquialisms Tommy Atkins, Doughboy, and Digger used for soldiers of the British, U.S., and Australian armies.[1][2]" Abcdefg9583 (talk) 11:01, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't call you darling buddy, I was talking about the term of endearment "darling". It was an example. Also "temizcik" is the modern Turkish equivalent of "selçuk" according to the source. Abcdefg9583 (talk) 11:28, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless, if the name is uncertain, that should probably be reflected in our treatment of the dynasty and our disambiguation pages. There's no reason for Selçuk (disambiguation) to just cover the exact same ground as Seljuk (disambiguation), Seljuq (disambiguation), etc. — LlywelynII 17:26, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dating[edit]

Death in 1038?[edit]

I observed that there are two dates for the death of Seljuk. In sideboz 1036 and in cat 1038. But in Turkmen WP it is 1008 and in Turkish WP it is given in two alternatives 1007 or 1009. Which is correct ? I'll call the editor. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 11:26, 22 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No reply. I fixed it to 1009. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 20:53, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Death date[edit]

According to Islam Ansiklopedisi, citing a 12th century chronicle called Ahbârü’d-devleti’s-Selcûkıyye, he died in 1007 AD at an age between 100 or 107. The article says 1039 but seems odd, citing no source. Anyone knowns about this? this source says the same. Considering Tuqaq died at 924, Seljuk would be over 130 years at this date if he was born 20 years prior to his father's death which sounds ridiculous. Also I see no reason why Seljuk shouldn't be Sultan if his grandson becomes ruler in 1037. So probably a wrong date. Beshogur (talk) 23:26, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That source (the one you linked) doesn't seem to be WP:RS. This is what Peacock in his The Great Seljuk Empire says (unfortunately he doesn't give a precise date); "These Ghuzz were also known as the Türkmen, or sometimes, the Seljuks (Arabic al-saljuqiyya), after Tughrıl’s ancestor, Seljuk, who had converted to Islam and died at the beginning of the eleventh century" --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:10, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@HistoryofIran: this one "The Turks: Middle ages, Volume 2"? But it's already solved, that source below in the article says 1009, which is still far away from 1039. Beshogur (talk) 16:17, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and noice. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:32, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 April 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the page to Seljuk (warlord) and the disambiguation page to Seljuk at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 18:39, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Seljuk → Seljuk (ruler)
Seljuk (disambiguation) → Seljuk

– The obscure founder of the dynasty is not the primary topic of the term "Seljuk" by any measure. The term most commonly refers to either the dynasty as a whole, its polities, or the overall society and culture of these polities. As for the incoming links, in none of the dozen or so I've had a look at is the founder the intended target. I'm agnostic as to the proper disambiguator: I don't know if "(ruler)" is more appropriate than, say, "(warlord)" or "of Great Seljuq" (as used in the title of Mahmud II of Great Seljuq for example). – Uanfala (talk) 13:11, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have a favourable opinion of this proposal but is "ruler" the best disambiguator? NB Ayyub Khan (Kipchak leader), Malik Dinar (Oghuz chief), Suluk (Turgesh khagan). — AjaxSmack 01:52, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Seljuk (warlord), which is how he's described in the article. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:42, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support warlord seems fine as a disambiguator Galobtter (pingó mió) 15:51, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.