Talk:Selma Union Depot

Name

Why is this article name "Selma–Smithfield" when all of the official references and links only use "Selma". There is no explanation in the article where "Smithfield" comes from. What is it? Should the name simply be "Selma station", in line with current Amtrak station naming format? @Epicgenius, Cuchullain, and DanTD: are involved in station name changes, so I ask for your opinion here. Secondarywaltz (talk) 16:50, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Smithfield has been included as part of the name in the past, as you can see here. I wouldn't bother getting Cuchullain involved in the naming of any stations, though. He'll more than likely just rename the whole thing "Selma station" and ignore that other Selma, or this station's former status as a Union Station. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 17:04, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

OK. So you are saying it was originally Selma Union Depot and formerly Selma–Smithfield station but is currently called Selma station. That is what I thought. Secondarywaltz (talk)

Forgetting common name for a second, "Smithfield" was part of the past name. "Selma–Smithfield" is probably to disambiguate from all the other Selmas out there. epicgenius (talk) 17:36, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I now see that Great American Stations (by Amtrak) refers to it as Selma Union Depot, and says that "To the people of Selma, the train depot is more than just a transportation structure". That would reinforce DanTD's comment above, but more History will be required Secondarywaltz (talk) 17:44, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I'd love to add more history here. I want to believe that the "Smithfield" part might've been added because Atlantic Coast Line Railroad might've closed a station there, and they added the name, but I can't find any evidence of this. More than likely, somebody in Smithfield, North Carolina wanted to get Amtrak to add their name to the station. And what about the Southern Railway? Did they stop using the station in 1971, just like ACL? I know they kept running passenger trains through the 1970's. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 17:58, 10 December 2015 (UTC)-------User:DanTD (talk) 17:58, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up, Secondarywaltz. There's nothing to indicated that "Selma-Smithfield" (let alone "Selma–Smithfield (Amtrak station)") has ever been a name for the station. The guidelines would suggest "Selma station" as the title, unless (1) it has another WP:COMMONNAME, or (2) there's another topic called "Selma station", in which case it would need a disambiguator. This was one of the major problems with the former unwritten status quo: articles got made-up titles with no basis in reality, and there was no attempt to add necessary disambiguation. I'll take a look around for sources and see if there's another common name.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:08, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

So here's what I've found. Amtrak calls it "Selma, NC". The town's website calls it "Selma Union Depot", while the town's tourist site calls it "Selma Station", "Selma Union Station", etc., and Visitnc.com calls it "Selma Historic Union Station". Ncbytrain.org calls it "Selma Station". Great American Station calls it "Selma, NC" but notes that it is generally known as "Selma Union Depot". Raleigh-Durham area news seems to call it "Union Station" (or "Selma Union Station", "Selma's Union Station", etc.)[1][2] Several books on Google Books call it "Selma Union Station"[3] In the National Register of Historic Places and related sources, it is "Selma Union Station" or simply "Union Station".[4]

Clearly, the station is typically known in the region by proper names, almost always including "Union". Both "Union Station" and "Union Depot" are used, but "Union Station" seems to be more common. "Selma" is often added. As such, I suggest the article be titled Selma Union Station, with Selma Station and Selma Union Depot mentioned in the text and included as redirects.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:38, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

"Selma Union Depot" is stated as the proper name by two authoritative references; Town of Selma (the owner) and Great American Station (by Amtrak the train operator). In this case generic words like "historic" and "station" are used to describe the facility and "Selma, NC" is the train destination from distant places. You have to give weight to those references. Secondarywaltz (talk) 22:02, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The town appears to be inconsistent. It calls it "Selma Union Depot" in parts of one site,[5][6], but calls it other variants on the other one.[7][8] The plaque on the building says "Selma Union Station".[9] However, either is better than the obviously inappropriate current name.--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:33, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree with those thoughts. @DanTD: created the Selma Union Depot redirect in May 2008, and I would like to have another opinion. Secondarywaltz (talk) 22:43, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I think we can all agree that the station has had "Selma Union" in its name at one point or another. epicgenius (talk) 01:12, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Did you not see the former timetable calling it "Selma-Smithfield (Amtrak station)?" I'm still leaning towards the idea of somebody in the tourist industry in Smithfield trying to get Amtrak to add their name to the station, but I want proof of whatever the reason may be for the name change. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 01:08, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

That old timetable is no good for what the station is called today, since none of the current references show it. Timetables generally show destinations rather than station titles, and since you seem to be willing to speculate, that is as viable a suggestion as any of yours. No change to the fact that the towns of Selma and Smithfield are still destinations for passengers. Secondarywaltz (talk) 01:35, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Well you have to admit the schedule does provide a reference of the old name. Here's something new; The October 31, 1982 Amtrak schedule calls it "Selma, NC," and includes "Smithfield," italicized and in parentheses. I'd like to find the Southern Railway's old schedule, and see if they gave it the name "Selma-Smithfield" (since that line doesn't go through there), or a different name, or just named it "Selma Union Depot," or "Selma Union Station." There's also something in Johnstown County Visitor's Bureau website about the history of Smithfield suggesting that development in the region spurred by Interstate 95 brought Selma and Smithfield together;

"Today, that stretch of roadway (US 301) is a five-lane boulevard lined by an unbroken string of retail establishments. What's more, the two towns have grown together - their borders now contiguous. Foreseeing what was taking place 30 years ago, leaders of the once-separate Selma and Smithfield chambers of commerce agreed to a merger, and the Greater Smithfield-Selma Area Chamber of Commerce was born in 1970."

The use of parentheses in the sentence is mine, of course, only so those of you know which road the article refers to. Anyway, this particular chamber of commerce might have something to do with the name we see here. I know it's just speculation at this point, but since it has been considered an official name in the past, there must be something credible about it. Nobody on Wikipedia suddenly decided it was called "Selma-Smithfield." ---------User:DanTD (talk) 01:51, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Repeat: Selma-Smithfield then or Smithfield-Selma now, was and is the destination for passengers. It is not the current station name. Secondarywaltz (talk) 01:59, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah the choice is between the options that are actually used.Cúchullain ^t/c 02:07, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

So, does anybody want to tell this to the creator of this article (User:Patriarca12), who gave it this name on October 20, 2006? In any case, if it comes time for a rename, I vote "Selma Union Depot." ---------User:DanTD (talk) 02:17, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I, too, vote for a rename to "Selma Union Depot". epicgenius (talk) 02:32, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I think "Selma Union Depot" is the less common of the two options, but I'm fine with it if everyone else is in agreement so long as both titles are included in the text. Shall I go ahead with the move?--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:33, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Full steam ahead for "Selma Union Depot". Secondarywaltz (talk) 19:42, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

More mysteries

While we're at it, does anybody have anything at all on the architect A.M. Griffin? The only A.M. Griffin I've been finding on the web is the writer. I tried Oxford's website, the damn thing wouldn't even let me change the page to "G." ---------User:DanTD (talk) 02:34, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I found three Google books that mention him: a mention about California, (as a reference only), (also as a reference). epicgenius (talk) 03:51, 11 December 2015 (UTC)