Talk:Sentinelese/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Citation needed

I'd like to see a cite for this statement:

"A curious incident occurred on March 29, 1970, when the research expedition's surveying party found themselves cornered on the reef flats between North Sentinel and Constance Island: A group of Sentinelese men threatened them with bows and arrows from a distance, but the situation was eventually broken up by Sentinelese women engaging the men in a mass orgy in the face of the amazed researchers, after which most of them retired to the forest with only a few guards overseeing the escape of the surveying party."—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.118.198.251 (talk • contribs) 7 Febuary 2007.

The above incident is a none-too-delicate retelling of an encounter by a group of Indian anthropologists which included T.N. Pandit. It may appear in his book, but a quote from either him or one of his companions describing the incident is reproduced online here in the Andaman Book by George Weber's Andaman Association. It'd probably be better to work the actual quote into the text and cite it.--cjllw | TALK 07:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I see this has been done now, but it now suffers the opposite problem in that it is very coyly phrased, to the extent that is unclear exactly what the nature of the "display" was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.193.245.14 (talk) 11:04, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:INDIA Banner/Andaman and Nicobar Islands workgroup Addition

Note: {{WP India}} Project Banner with Andaman and Nicobar Islands workgroup parameters was added to this article talk page because the article falls under Category:Andaman and Nicobar Islands or its subcategories. Should you feel this addition is inappropriate , please undo my changes and update/remove the relavent categories to the article -- TinuCherian ^{(Wanna Talk?)} - 05:47, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Slave trading

"Their social practices have been almost entirely free of external influence since the end of slave trading three centuries ago." Why is slave trading mentioned in the article? 87.70.11.29 (talk) 12:25, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I haven't checked, but I think that line is new as I have read the article lots of times and it's the only thing I don't remember. Presumably it means that slavers used to visit the island, but some more detail should be given. Salopian (talk) 14:21, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Slaving is mentioned because it was an external influence. And presumably the or a reason for the islanders' hostility. Probably in Nat Geo somewhere; I don't remember where I read that. kwami (talk) 14:24, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Source

• The Most Isolated People in the World us1.campaign-archive2.com--91.39.99.159 (talk) 07:41, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Fire: yes or no?

"there is no evidence of either agricultural practices or methods of producing fire." "Fires are maintained as embers inside dwellings, possibly assisted by resin torches." So do they have fire or not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.82.132.35 (talk) 23:44, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

You can have fire w/o being able to produce fire. Not the same thing. — kwami (talk) 05:45, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

All that can be said is that officials from the Andaman Islands confirm that smoke sometimes rises from the islands. As for agricultural practices, from satellite photos it is clear there are no fields, but I don't have anything that resembles a source for that. -- Llehsadam (talk) 06:35, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

In reference 8 it is written: "... and if we may judge from the multitude of lights seen upon the shore at night, it is well inhabited...". I assume the lights are from fire? Tecfan (talk) 13:49, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

"cease" vs "ease"

I have to wonder if the change from cease to ease is valid since this is a quote rather than a description. Is "cease" a mistake from the original quote? Hue White (talk) 22:37, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Confusing length of arrows

Under the heading "Culture" the following sentence is found:

"The arrows are over 1 m (3 ft) long. The harpoon- or javelin-type arrows are nearly half as long again, about the same length as the bows (over 3 m (10 ft)), and can also be thrown or used for stabbing, but the latter probably only rarely."

There must be an error here. If regular arrows are "over 1 m ... long" and harpoon-type arrows are "nearly half as long again", that would make the latter about 1.5 m long. But that is not "about the same length as the bows (over 3 m (10 ft))".

Which measurement is right, 3 or 1.5 meters?

I have googled the phrase "harpoon- or javelin-type arrows" and found 43 results using the exact same wording, except that the harpoon-type arrows are in nearly every case said to be 5 feet long, which seems much more reasonable. Presumably, the copied text is from an earlier (and correct?) Wikipedia version and the 3 m claim is an error introduced later on, but without access to the original source (unnamed in the text) I cannot edit the article.

--Filursiax (talk) 16:33, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

In this video from the researchers that visited the island in the 80s, the arrows are stated as being 2.5m long. They also show one of the arrows. -- Llehsadam (talk) 06:25, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

The "arrow" shown in the video does appear to be at least 2 meters long, but it also depicts the Sentinelese aiming their bows at the researchers. They are holding the bows vertically, not sideways, and if those bows were much over 2 meters long they would not be able to use them effectively that way. If the arrows they were firing were 3 meters long, 2/3 of the arrow would extend past the bow when it was fully drawn (no matter how long the bow is the arrow can't be drawn farther than the distance between the extended arm and the opposite shoulder). It would make them very difficult to aim and there would be no benefit to the length of the arrow. I'm pretty sure that the "arrow" the researchers pull from the water is not an arrow but a stabbing or possibly throwing spear/harpoon for fishing. The Sentinelese would have to be 8 feet tall to fire that from a bow effectively. I'm going to edit the sizes to reflect this. 162.232.246.7 (talk) 18:42, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

"Slightly more males than females"

Is it not a bit ridiculous to state that "there appears to be slightly more males than females" when so little is known about the population that estimates range from 40 to 500? --2A01:E34:EE33:210:DC60:44A4:E3F3:CA65 (talk) 21:56, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, since the only Sentinelese that are counted are those that come out on the beach and it's clear that this is not their entire population (no children have ever been seen), this should be removed. 162.232.246.7 (talk) 18:43, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

There are children in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExdEHU02Zk0 , it's not a new vid either. 213.40.55.89 (talk) 13:35, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

If you do a google search for "Sentinelese Children" you can find some pictures that seem to depict them, but if you go to the site you can see these are pictures of other tribes of Andaman Islanders, who are related but not as isolated. 162.232.246.7 (talk) 19:01, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

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Marco Polo

"Describing the Sentinelese tribe of India's remote Andaman islands in his travel journals, the notoriously trite 13th-century explorer Marco Polo wrote: 'They are a most violent and cruel generation who seem to eat everybody they catch.'" [1]

Kortoso (talk) 18:26, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

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Negrito inter-relatedness

I removed the following recently-inserted para:

they don't even make fire. They are pygmy negritos, which means that they are related in race not to the modern day populations of Asia but closer to the Mbuti pygmies of the central African rainforests and the Khoisan peoples of southern Africa. They are assumed to be the descendants of the first modern homo sapiens sapiens to colonise the world, and most of whom have now been replaced elsewhere by later population migrations. Small negrito groups do exist in places such as Vietnam, leading us to the conclusion that these were the original populations of the area, later replaced by South Chinese settlers. The fact that only the Andaman Islanders have retained their own language, while other groups have been overrun by migrants at different stages of history, shows just how isolated these people are.

Apart from its awkward phrasing, while it has indeed been speculated that the Andamanese share some genetic heritage in common with various other widely-dispersed peoples who have been identified as negritos, and that they represent the remaining descendants of some "earlier wave" of migration, this has not yet been "proved". The idea does warrant mentioning, but IMO not in the form given above, needs to be more carefully portrayed (and also, referenced). I think it best that this text be reworked.--cjllw | TALK 22:58, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

"Negritos" are an apparently paraphyletic catchall, and any six-footer who waves a 4-foot barbed arrow at me with his flatbow surely does not qualify as "pygmy" in my book. Dysmorodrepanis 09:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a simple link to the Negrito article would suffice, which incidentally includes Andaman islanders within its definition. Kortoso (talk) 17:17, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

"Negrito" is a term that has no Anthropological or scientific validity, its an old word from the "Scientific racism" era of Anthropology that tried to stuff all 'black' folk into a common bucket or buckets without any regard to actual lineage or genetics creating absurdities like claiming Aboriginal Australians and Africans as closely related when its just not the case. Lets not use it! 2001:44B8:6117:B100:C0F9:7B48:AC7A:939C (talk) 02:39, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Incorrect. Please refer to the well-referenced article on the subject. 50.111.51.207 (talk) 18:56, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Death of John Allen Chau

Re: Death of John Allen Chau. Should this be a stand-alone article (with whatever appropriate title)? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 14:14, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I was bold. I created the article. Here: Death of John Allen Chau. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:18, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

And I have reverted and redirected this per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP1E that also applies to recently died people. this is an invalid and controversial CFORK that should not have been made without a proper discussion. --DBigXrayᗙ 20:11, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

John Allen Chau

Moved from Sentinelese

. His apparent desire to offer salvation to the tribe was poorly received, judging by the number of arrows in his corpse.

An IP had added the content above which I have removed, I have not seen any source stating the same. And it looks like original research to me. --DBigXrayᗙ 05:47, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Not to mention totally un-encyclopedic.50.111.51.207 (talk) 18:57, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Agree, but still a great attempt at humour. --DBigXrayᗙ 22:18, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I think it is worth mentioning John's family's response regarding forgiving the sentelenese and the fishermen https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-46300459. Also John was not just carryig a Bible, he had other gifts such as a soccer ball, fishing line and scissors https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/washington-state-man-is-killed-by-bow-and-arrow-on-remote-island-in-india/.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 05:35, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Remove passage about cannibalism

"As the bodies of people the Sentinelese killed have been found, it has been suggested that they do not practise cannibalism. But as their culture remains unexplored, it is unknown whether they practise cannibalism within their tribal group(s)." does not have a citation and in my understanding does not add any meaningful information; it rather seems like a forced mention of cannibalism. Remove this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.46.137.15 (talk) 11:00, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Done. Popcornduff (talk) 11:03, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Popcornduff, I have partially re-added that piece of information along with the citation. I think the first line is relevant to the subject. and is supported by reliable sources. --DBigXrayᗙ 18:49, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Age of Chau

Many sources mentions age of chau as 27. Providing [2] [3] Accesscrawl (talk) 15:38, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Accesscrawl, this piece of information is disputed and many sources I have seen also mention his age as 26. Not sure why that is happening. In any case whatever his age may be, not adding this information on his age does not harm the article in any way. Had this article been his WP:BIO then it could have been important, but on the sentinelese article, not so much. That said, I have no strong feelings about adding 26 or 27 or even skipping the mention of his age altogether.--DBigXrayᗙ 18:47, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Accesscrawl, see the video here [4] that states he was 2 months short of his 27th birthday, so technically he was still 26--DBigXrayᗙ 22:35, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

"who were more welcoming to outsiders and now interact with them regularly"

I removed the above words from "Unlike other tribes in the Andamanese Islands, who were more welcoming to outsiders and now interact with them regularly, the Sentinelese appear to have consistently refused any interaction with the outside world."

It mostly just seemed redundant - if the Sentinelese consistently refusing interaction with the outside world is "unlike other tribes", it seems to clearly follow from that that those other tribes must have been more welcoming and have interacted more with outsiders.

Any additional characterisation added by "who were more welcoming to outsiders and now interact with them regularly" is arguably misleading - some of the tribes have ceased to exist; and saying the Jarawa willingly interact with outsiders "regularly" is by my understanding something of an overstatement.

I feel like the important facts are there - the Sentinelese have consistently refused interaction; this is unlike the other Andamanese tribes. For more details, people can look on the pages about those other tribes. (Note that this text was in the lead - it might be OK in body text, but the lead should be concise and tightly focused on the topic.) TSP (talk) 19:58, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

TSP, thanks for sharing your detailed thoughts on this content. I agree with your justification. But understand that most of the Andaman tribes lead a secluded life, other tribes did not react so violently to contact by outsiders, I feel this should be clarified. I am open to further cpy edit of this phrase. altogether dropping this comparison is detrimental to the understanding of their peculiar behavior. --DBigXrayᗙ 20:19, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

OK. Can you suggest a draft that would be more helpful and less misleading? Currently I think it adds nothing, so an improvement should not be difficult. Otherwise it will continue to be my position that this text should not be there.

I've removed it again for now. Feel free to suggest a better draft that would add something to the article and be less misleading. TSP (talk) 23:41, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Discussion to cut down the Content

Version currently in the article

Death of John Allen Chau (2018) In November 2018, John Allen Chau, a 26-year-old American Christian missionary from Vancouver, Washington, travelled illegally to the North Sentinel island with the help of local fishermen in the hopes of making contact with the Sentinelese and converting them to Christianity. According to First Post India, he had made several prior visits to the Andaman Islands. On 14 November, Chau hired a fishing boat and crew in Port Blair, South Andaman Island, for travelling to North Sentinel Island. He had reportedly paid the fishermen ₹25,000 to transport him to the prohibited island. According to police, he waited and started his journey in the cover of the darkness to avoid detection by the authorities. On 15 November, Chau attempted his first visit to North Sentinel island, and the fishing boat took him to around 500–700m from the shore. Chau was warned by the fishermen not to go further, but continued his journey to the shore alone in a kayak, carrying a Bible. The fishermen saw him getting attacked by the islanders with bows and arrows as he reached the shore, but reported that he kept walking despite the attack. After his visit, he returned to the boat later on the same day with arrow injuries on his body. He wrote about his visit on 15 November and stated that the islanders were angry with his visit while he had attempted to sing worship songs to them. On 16 November he made a second attempt to land in kayak. According to the local police, before leaving the boat for this second attempt, Chau gave the fisherman a long note addressed to his family, saying that he believed Jesus had given him the strength to go to the most forbidden places on Earth and that "You guys might think I’m crazy in all this but I think it’s worthwhile to declare Jesus to these people." During this second attempt, his kayak was broken by the Sentinelese, after which he returned to the boat by swimming. Chau had told the fishermen that he did not plan to return from the island with them and instructed them to leave without him. On 17 November, Chau visited the island again but did not return that day. The fishermen who had transported him to the island reported that they later saw the islanders attaching a rope around his neck and dragging his body, whereupon the fishermen fled. They returned on 18 November and saw Chau's body on the shore. The fishermen who had taken Chau to the island then reported his death to a local preacher and friend, who called his family in the United States, and the family subsequently called the United States Embassy in New Delhi. Following this contact, Indian authorities arrested seven fishermen who, as of November 2018, may face a number of charges including being accessories to Chau's homicide. No charges can be brought by India against Sentinelese islanders. Human rights group Survival International said: "It’s not impossible that the Sentinelese have just been infected by deadly pathogens to which they have no immunity, with the potential to wipe out the entire tribe." References

summmarized version by JezGrove

In November 2018, John Allen Chau, a 26-year-old American Christian missionary from Vancouver, Washington,[29][30][31] travelled illegally to the North Sentinel island by bribing local fishermen[36] in the hopes of making contact with the Sentinelese and converting them to Christianity.[29][32][33] On 15 November he was taken to around 500-700m from the shore [37] and was warned by the fishermen not to go further, but continued his journey to the shore alone in a kayak, carrying a Bible.[30] The fishermen saw him getting attacked by the islanders with bows and arrows but reported that he kept walking [35] and returned to the boat later on the same day with arrow injuries.[37] He wrote about his visit, noting he had sung hymns and that the islanders had been angry.[38] On his second attempt the following day, before leaving the fishing boat Chau gave the fisherman a long note addressed to his family, saying that he believed Jesus had given him the strength to go to the most forbidden places on Earth [30] and that "You guys might think I’m crazy in all this but I think it’s worthwhile to declare Jesus to these people."[38] His kayak was broken by the Sentinelese and he swam back to the boat,[35] despite having previously told the fishermen to leave the island without him.[39] On 17 November, Chau visited the island again but did not return. The fishermen later reported that they had fled after seeing the islanders attaching a rope around his neck and dragging his body. They returned the next day and saw Chau's body on the shore [35] and reported his death to a local preacher and friend, who called his family in the United States. Chau's family then called the United States Embassy in New Delhi [35] and the Indian authorities arrested seven fishermen who, as of November 2018, may face a number of charges including being culpable of Chau's homicide.[40][41][42] No charges can be brought by India against Sentinelese islanders following its declaration as a sovereign state by the Indian government. Furthermore, Chau was in direct violation of Indian law, which dictates that any passage within three miles of the coastline is illegal, and is enforced by the Indian Navy.[43][44] According to local officials the islanders have lived in isolation for approximately 60,000 years, so the tribe lack the immunities to common human illnesses like the measles and flu. Human rights group Survival International stated of Chau's visit and contact with the islanders: "It’s not impossible that the Sentinelese have just been infected by deadly pathogens to which they have no immunity, with the potential to wipe out the entire tribe."[45][46] JezGrove (talk) 22:51, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Difference between the 2 above versions [5]

version by TSP

On 15 November 2018, John Allen Chau, a 27-year-old American[29][30] described variously as a Christian missionary and an 'adventure tourist',[31][32][33] travelled illegally to North Sentinel Island with the help of local fishermen to attempt to contact the Sentinelese.[34][35][36] He went from the fishing boat in a kayak to the shore,[29] where he was attacked by islanders with bows and arrows.[35] He returned to the boat later that day[37] and wrote that the islanders were angry with his visit while he had attempted to sing worship songs to them.[38] On a second attempt to land on 16th November, his kayak was broken by the Sentinelese, and he returned to the boat by swimming.[35] On 17 November, Chau visited the island again. The fishermen reported that they saw islanders attaching a rope around his neck and dragging his body. On 18 November the fishermen returned and saw Chau's body on the shore.[35] Indian authorities arrested seven fishermen for involvement with the contact attempt.[39][40][41] Human rights group Survival International linked the death to the 2018 lifting of some restrictions on foreigners visiting the islands,[42] and said "it’s not impossible that the Sentinelese have just been infected by deadly pathogens to which they have no immunity, with the potential to wipe out the entire tribe."[43][44]

Version by User:Jay D. Easy

In November 2018, John Allen Chau, a 27-year-old American evangelist was attacked and killed after traveled to North Sentinel island.[29] Chau was illegally brought close to the island's shore by local fishermen.[30] They reported they later saw the islanders attached a rope around his neck and dragged his body, whereupon the fishermen fled. They returned the next day and spotted Chau's body on the shore.[31]

summmarized version by JezGrove, annotated by TSP

In November 2018, John Allen Chau, a 26-year-old American Christian missionary from Vancouver, Washington,[29][30][31] travelled illegally to the North Sentinel island by bribing local fishermen[36] in the hopes of making contact with the Sentinelese and converting them to Christianity.[29][32][33] On 15 November he was taken to around 500-700m from the shore [37] and was warned by the fishermen not to go further, but continued his journey to the shore alone in a kayak, carrying a Bible.[30] The fishermen saw him getting attacked by the islanders with bows and arrows but reported that he kept walking [35] and returned to the boat later on the same day with arrow injuries.[37] He wrote about his visit, noting he had sung hymns and that the islanders had been angry.[38] On his second attempt the following day, before leaving the fishing boat Chau gave the fisherman a long note addressed to his family, saying that he believed Jesus had given him the strength to go to the most forbidden places on Earth [30] and that "You guys might think I’m crazy in all this but I think it’s worthwhile to declare Jesus to these people."[38] His kayak was broken by the Sentinelese and he swam back to the boat,[35] despite having previously told the fishermen to leave the island without him.[39] On 17 November, Chau visited the island again but did not return. The fishermen later reported that they had fled after seeing the islanders attaching a rope around his neck and dragging his body. They returned the next day and saw Chau's body on the shore [35] and reported his death to a local preacher and friend, who called his family in the United States. Chau's family then called the United States Embassy in New Delhi [35] and the Indian authorities arrested seven fishermen who, as of November 2018, may face a number of charges including being culpable of Chau's homicide.[40][41][42] No charges can be brought by India against Sentinelese islanders following its declaration as a sovereign state by the Indian government. Furthermore, Chau was in direct violation of Indian law, which dictates that any passage within three miles of the coastline is illegal, and is enforced by the Indian Navy.[43][44] According to local officials the islanders have lived in isolation for approximately 60,000 years, so the tribe lack the immunities to common human illnesses like the measles and flu. Human rights group Survival International stated of Chau's visit and contact with the islanders: "It’s not impossible that the Sentinelese have just been infected by deadly pathogens to which they have no immunity, with the potential to wipe out the entire tribe."[45][46] JezGrove (talk) 22:51, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

User:TSP, yes, I believe the section on 1880 expedition, needs to be expanded. I feel that 1880 section leaves the reader with too many questions about the incident. Regarding your comments on SPINOFF, what exactly are you planning to write on the SPINOFF article that you can't write here ? Chau is already dead so he isn't going to do any more notable works. His life so far was not notable. His death is only in news because of the notability of the tribe.This incdent provides the reader an understanding of the hostile behavior of the Sentinelese, so it makes sense to have decent enough details about the incident.

I personally feel version by JezGrove is a good approximation, keeping together all the relevant information and provides the reader necessary details about the incident and behavior of sentinelese. My only edit major edit to JezGrove's version will be to remove the line that says "declaration as a sovereign state" because there is no such declaration. --DBigXrayᗙ 12:42, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

What I'd SPINOFF is the majority of content in this section.

Again, you seem to think I am proposing an article on John Allen Chau; I'm not, I'm proposing an article on the event of his death; therefore whether he is going to do any more notable works, and WP:BLP1E and WP:BIO1E which you have repeatedly cited, are irrelevant. (BLP1E is also irrelevant because he's dead.)

I've just added another section above where I've gone through JezGrove's proposal (disregarding for the moment the exact wording, some of which is no longer up to date with the current article), and struck out everything that is either not directly relevant to an article about the Sentinelese, or should be covered by general sections of the article, not one about this particular incident. It's about 60% of it.

I think that the reasonable amount of content in this article is probably somewhere between my draft above, and Jay D. Easy's - it my in truth be nearer to Jay's than mine.

If you think really anything at all needs to be said about Chau himself, his motivations or his actions or even the events surrounding his death, other than what they directly tell us about the Sentinelese, then that is inappropriate in the article on the Sentinelese and can only be done if we fork a separate article. TSP (talk) 17:46, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

(I didn't actually look at my own previous draft while doing this, but on comparing, the result is almost exactly the same.) TSP (talk) 18:40, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

User:TSP, Yes, please be assured that I understood your proposal of FORKING his death article, right when you mentioned it the first time.

I understand that you believe this incident of his death is notable, While I strongly believe this death is only in news due to the Notability of sentinelese. so the death event also fails WP:NOTINHERITED. Accordingly the standalone death article will not survive an AfD.

I feel JDE's version is just too short to make any sense out of it. that kind of summary can be included in the article lead, which needs to have a para on these incidents that are covered in the article body.

I went through your annotated version and I still have the same concerns, this version leaves out some very important plot details that may confuse the reader. for example the reader after reading your annotated version will probably think that he canoed all the way from the main Andaman island to the Sentinel island.

Chau's section is currently 3KB of readable text which is not really a lot, considering the chain of events. While we can obviously cut down a line or three but sumarising it to a 2 sentence para will be doing injustice to this event. Whether we have another article on this event or not, Sentinelese article must have a reasonably descriptive paragraph outlining the chain of events that led to his death. --DBigXrayᗙ 19:06, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

OK. I can believe that you understood the proposal; but you keep giving arguments and citing policies which don't apply to an article about the event, so I keep telling you why they don't apply.

I think you're also misapplying WP:NOTINHERITED. That applies to arguments like, "All schools are notable", or "This song is by a notable band so is notable". The key phrase in it is, "Notability requires verifiable evidence." It is about cases where there are plenty of sources about something related to the subject, but not reliable sources establishing notability of the subject itself.

In this case, there are plenty of reliable sources about the event itself.

WP:NOTNEWS I think is the only policy that has been brought up that has any real relevance. But that is about giving too much detail about recent events, which applies at least as much here as it would in a separate article, because here there is also WP:PROPORTION to take in to account.

Regarding the cuts... for this article, I don't really care if people think Chau canoed all the way from Andaman to Sentinel Island. I think it's clear he didn't (as it says at the start he had help from local fishermen, and the fishing boat and fishermen are mentioned several times), but in either case it's not really relevant to the Sentinelese, who are the subject of this article. The only relevant things for this article are (a) the behaviour of the Sentinelese and (b) the enforcement of laws relating to the Sentinelese. TSP (talk) 19:15, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Somewhat condensed version of the original first version after edits by TSP and DBigXray

In November 2018, John Allen Chau, a 26-year-old American evangelist,[34][35][36] travelled illegally to North Sentinel Island with the help of local fishermen to attempt to make contact with the Sentinelese.[34][37][38] On 14 November, Chau hired a fishing boat and crew by paying them ₹25,000 (about USD384) in Port Blair, South Andaman Island, to ferry him to North Sentinel Island.[39] According to police, he waited until nightfall to start his journey to avoid detection by authorities.[35] On 15 November, Chau attempted his first visit to North Sentinel island, and the fishing boat took him around 500–700m from the shore.[40] The fishermen warned Chau not to go further, but he continued his journey to the shore alone in a kayak,[35] where islanders attacked him with bows and arrows.[41] He returned to the fishing boat later that day,[40] and wrote that the islanders were angry with his visit, while he had attempted to sing worship songs to them.[42] On a second visit the following day,[35] the Sentinelese broke his kayak, and he swam back to the boat.[41] On a third visit, on 17 November, before leaving the boat, Chau had told the fishermen he did not plan to return from the island with them and instructed them to leave without him.[43] Later the fishermen reported that they saw the islanders attaching a rope around his neck and dragging his body, whereupon the fishermen fled. On returning the following day, they saw Chau's body on the shore.[41] Subsequently the Police arrested seven fishermen for assisting Chau in reaching the illegal trip to the prohibited island.[44][45][46] Indigenous tribes human rights group Survival International said it was possible that Chau had infected the tribe with pathogens to which they have no genetic immunity, "with the potential to wipe out the entire tribe"

TSP lets finish the discussion first before touching the article. I do agree with some of your removals and disagree with some, here is the version that I finally left the article with. lets discuss more on this version. Please share your concerns if any with this version --DBigXrayᗙ 20:07, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

I was previously thinking that, but the article including that section are constantly changing.... and also you already undid both my and Jay D Easy's previous condensing, so I'm not sure it's logical to say you can change the article to your preferred version, but other people need permission to change it to anything else.

I think this is at least a big improvement from previously. Some of it is just a bit wordy - he to the island went with the help of some fishermen, so he hired a fishing boat, so he paid the crew money, because he wanted them to take him to the island. That seems like it says the same thing three or four times. "In November 2018, John Allen Chau, a 26-year-old American evangelist,[34][35][36] travelled illegally to North Sentinel Island with the help of local fishermen to make contact with the Sentinelese.[34][37][38] He reportedly paid the fishing boat crew ₹25,000 (about USD384) to transport him, and travelled after nightfall to avoid detection by authorities.[35]" I still think most of what is in that second sentence is irrelevant to the article, but I'm not that bothered if it's a single brief sentence.

But as I say, I don't care about the "plot points", because this article isn't Death of John Allen Chau - it used to be, and I think it should be; but right now it is part of Sentinelese. Which means that the "plot" is irrelevant except insofar as it tells us interesting things about the Sentinelese who are the subject of the article. TSP (talk) 20:31, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Further copy edits based on feedback above

In November 2018, John Allen Chau, a 26-year-old American evangelist,[34][35][36] travelled illegally to North Sentinel Island with the help of local fishermen to attempt to make contact with the Sentinelese.[34][37][38] On 14 November, Chau hired a fishing boat and crew for ₹25,000 (about USD384) in Port Blair, South Andaman Island.[39] According to police, he waited until nightfall to start his journey to avoid detection by authorities.[35] On 15 November, Chau attempted his first visit to North Sentinel island, and the fishing boat took him around 500–700m from the shore.[40] The fishermen warned Chau not to go further, but he continued his journey to the shore alone in a kayak with a Bible and some gifts, and was attacked by the islanders with bows and arrows.[41][35] He returned to the fishing boat later that day,[40] and wrote that the islanders were angry with his visit, while he had attempted to sing worship songs to them.[42] On a second visit the following day,[35] the Sentinelese broke his kayak, and he swam back to the boat.[41] On a third visit, on 17 November, before leaving the boat, Chau had told the fishermen he did not plan to return from the island with them and instructed them to leave without him.[43] Later the fishermen reported that they saw the islanders attaching a rope around his neck and dragging his body, whereupon the fishermen fled. On returning the following day, they saw Chau's body on the shore.[41] Subsequently the Police arrested seven fishermen for assisting Chau in reaching the illegal trip to the prohibited island.[44][45][46] Indigenous tribes human rights group Survival International said it was possible that Chau had infected the tribe with pathogens to which they have no genetic immunity, "with the potential to wipe out the entire tribe.

TSP, appreciate your constructive feedback. I did some more copy edits so as to include some of your suggestions and made this version. We have successfully trimmed the readable text of this section from 3.2KB to 1.8KB and the content still makes decent sense and doesnt leave the reader with too many questions. 1.8KB is quite decent for a subsection and I feel we should now focus on improving the other section that clearly needs some expansion. let see what other editors have to say on this version.--DBigXrayᗙ 20:50, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

To say he was an "evangelist" is clearly a distortion. He WAS and IS a MISSIONARY! You're now removing all mention of it! WobInDisguise (talk) 13:04, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

On a bit of a tangent, This article has some quite interesting details about the Sentinelese from Chau's letter - they initially approached with unstrung arrows; there was a man apparently in a leadership role wearing a white crown; he seems to have communicated with them to some degree, with them laughing in response to his attempts to communicate; the arrow shaft that hit his bible was 'metal, thin but very sharp'. All that is really relevant stuff about the Sentinelese, that is currently being lost in the focus on Chau's actions.

I honestly think that a well-balanced section here would go something like "In 2018 American John Allen Chau travelled illegally to the island to try to contact the Sentinelese. He reported that...." and basically the whole of the rest of the section would be what he said in his letter about the Sentinelese, then their eventual killing of him. I think even now the amount of detail about Chau's actions is dwarfing the relevant content about what he was actually able to observe about the Sentinelese. TSP (talk) 22:11, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

• TSP, yes, we can add these details you said above from Chau's notes, there is nothing that prevents you from adding them. The main point of disagreement here, is that you are removing vital lines that explain the sequence of events. Context is quite important here. "The plan to leave at night, to escape from the coastguard and navy" and "bribing the sailors", "ignoring the sailor's warning" goes on to show how determined Chau was to complete his goal to proselytize the tribals.All these go on to give an idea to the reader that he meticulously planned the illegal event. It is not as simple incident as you are trying to portray that anyone could take a canoe and reach the "off limits island" to meet the tribals. No one should get this wrong impression after reading this section. --DBigXrayᗙ 22:32, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Which would be very relevant in an article about John Allen Chau or his death. But this is not that article. This article is about the Sentinelese, and John Allen Chau was not Sentinelese, so his determination or otherwise is not relevant to this article. TSP (talk) 22:35, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Tsunami

Does anyone wanna talk about the tsunami? 101.178.163.19 (talk) 05:23, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Good point, there is already an existing section the North Sentinel Island article, where it is discussed in Geography and North_Sentinel_Island#Modern_period. I think we can add a new section on Tsunami here, if we have some more content. --DBigXrayᗙ 05:59, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Chau's motive of spreading Christianity

There are a number of references indicating Chau was trying to spread Christianity among the tribe, such as this , then why this is content is getting removed? CuriousPerson18375 (talk) 00:09, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

References

@TSP (talk · contribs), Why did you remove Chau was trying to spread Christianity despite a number of sources claim so? CuriousPerson18375 (talk)

Because this article is about the Sentinelese, not about him.

The article already described him as an evangelist (that is, someone who attempts to spread Christianity), as well as saying that he had a Bible and that he sang worship songs to them. I don't think it was left unclear what he was doing; but his motives are not all that relevant to this article, because this article is about the Sentinelese, not about him.

I've suggested above that this content could be split out into a separate article on his death (as it briefly was before), at which point all this content would be relevant; but while it remains in this article, the content needs to concentrate on the Sentinelese. Chau was not Sentinelese, so is really relevant to the article only in the context of the Sentinelese reaction to him. TSP (talk) 00:28, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

So if this article was not about him, then just remove his name. Its still valid source.101.178.163.19 (talk) 05:17, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Agree that this article is about the Sentinelese, but also note that this has a section about Contact. And Chau's contact with the Sentinelese is a notable contact which deserves its own section. @TSP I think you are going overboard here in removing the mention that Chau was "trying to spread Christianity" in the island. The article states that he was a missionary but that does not automatically imply that this trip was also for spreading Christianity. It has to be specifically mentioned as almost all the reliable source mention this fact. See the quotes and sources shared in the section Talk:Sentinelese/Archive 2#Whitewashing_of_John_Chau_as_a_missionary . A number of editors have tried to introduce this into the article and rightly so. This piece of information about "trying to convert the tribals" should stay in the article, regardless of the fact that we have a separate article on this event or not. --DBigXrayᗙ 05:59, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

That Talk section is on a different question: whether it is OK to simply describe Chau as a 'missionary', despite some sources saying he was primarily an adventurer. Although I still think this is misleading, I've largely left it alone for now as it was simply a one-word description and his motivations are not all that relevant; but the more extensively we describe his motives, the more problematic it is to only show one side of the sources. TSP (talk) 22:29, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Dear TSP (talk · contribs):

* The referenced article from SCMP clearly states Chau's motive of spreading Christianity.

* An evangelist with Bible visiting different places does not necessarily imply that the person is trying to spread Christianity. Chau was an evangelist, had a copy of Bible and might have visited other places. But we do not know whether he was trying to spread Christianity there. On the other hand, when he visited the restricted zone of North Sentinel Island, the main objective should have been spreading Christianity among the tribe. Will a person from a modern society such as the US travel to remote place like North Sentinel Island and undertake a series of illegal acts just to establish contact with the Sentinelese? Chau was not an anthropologist or a scientist for that matter who is trying to study the tribe. His main motive seems to spread Christianity there.

* It is likely that Chau had detailed information about the place - how to "pay" (bribe?) the locals to get what he wants to do, travel in the night to avoid detection by the authorities. In fact, he had made four prior trips to the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, starting in 2015.[6] He also must knew why the North Sentinel Island is prohibited to visitors and what risks the Sentinelese tribe can have upon contact with the pathogen brought by the tourists. Despite having all of these information, Chau traveled to the island to spread Christianity. What makes the story more remarkable is that nobody from the neighboring countries traveled to the island so far to spread the indigenous religions. CuriousPerson18375 (talk) 15:04, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Which is all very interesting, but:

a. Your reasoning about what is likely or what must have happened isn't relevant. See WP:OR. Only what is represented by the sources can be included.

b. Whether or not it is interesting information, it is not interesting information about the Sentinelese. "A Wikipedia article should not be a complete exposition of all possible details, but a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject." - WP:NOTEVERYTHING The subject of the article is the Sentinelese. TSP (talk) 22:29, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

“genetic immunity”

i’m confused by the line “may lack genetic immunity to common viruses like measles and influenza.” All humans lack this immunity unless vaccinated. And it’s not genetic, but rather vaccine-induced. The entry could use an editor with expertise on succeptibilty of isolated populations to infectious disease. Jeffreystringer (talk) 09:44, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

It's becasue they had no exposure over the thousands of years to build up immunity. Look at Europeans and Africans of the early colonial period, they were immune more so to certain diseases that practically decimated the Native Americans.137.118.100.86 (talk) 19:58, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

• yes, We Humans catch cold, but rarely does anyone die due to common cold. our body takes time but fights off these virus, but it does succeed in that fight due to the immunity we have, and that exactly is the kind of immunity these Sentienlese lack. So even something as harmless as common cold or Flu can be fatal to them. (the experience with Jarawa and other Andaman tribe proves this)--DBigXrayᗙ 00:15, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Having had a quick look at the various articles, I believe this sort of immunity comes from the adaptive immune system; rather than from the Innate immune system which genetic immunity refers to. The Survival International statement, which is the only one sourced in any sentence containing "genetic immunity", itself simply says "immunity". I'd be inclined to simply change this to immunity (medical) until we can find a specific source, or perhaps an epidemiologist who understands this better. TSP (talk) 01:14, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Possible contact with pathogen and deterrent to poachers?

• As per Survival International on killing of American man John Allen Chau by Sentinelese tribe

“It’s not impossible that the Sentinelese have just been infected by deadly pathogens to which they have no immunity, with the potential to wipe out the entire tribe.

is there any way to actually know whether the Sentinelese have been infected by pathogen?

• If such poachers are caught alive, should they be charged for serious crimes such as premeditated homicide to deter further poaching? — Preceding unsigned comment added by CuriousPerson18375 (talk • contribs) 18:36, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
• Yes, there is one sure and certain way to know that, it is called death. Tribals who came in contact with Chau may die if infected. Jarawa tribe from Andaman had a similar large number of death, so now the access is greatly restricted to them, so as to save them from pathogens. --DBigXrayᗙ 20:22, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Use of Fire and Cooking

Currently states the Sentinelese do not know how to use fire, which contradicts this recent article 129.78.56.231 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:56, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

References

Requesting comments on the line about the payment and plans to evade detection

Original content, restored here

On 14 November, Chau paid ₹25,000 (about USD 337) to local fishermen in Port Blair, South Andaman Island to take him to the island. According to police, he waited until nightfall to start his journey to avoid detection by authorities.

References

TSP seems to be removing this line. stating that this only belongs to a WP:CFORK and not here. TSP supports a CFORK, While there is clear consensus above that CFORK is not merited for death of Chau. There is a difference of opinion on keeping the above line in the article since I differ from TSP and I believe that this line is highly relevant in this article in Chau's section to give an idea to the reader about the meticulous planning that was done to undertake this illegal one man invasion of the island. I request comment (Support/Oppose) from other editors if this line is merited in this article or not. --DBigXrayᗙ 00:48, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Opppose. While the poll above opposes forking the article, it also strongly supports cutting down this section. (Every vote that does not specifically say to cut it down was cast during a period when it was already cut down; none says to expand it.) Giving an idea to the reader about "the meticulous planning that was done to undertake this illegal one man invasion of the island" is not relevant to an article about the Sentinelese, because that one man was not Sentinelese. TSP (talk) 01:01, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

To be fair, the poll was clearly outdated. While the poll was ongoing, the article had been cut down a lot (from 3.8KB to 1.8KB) since the discussion started.--DBigXrayᗙ 01:06, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

The longest version I could spot is 520 words. The current version is 460 words - about 90% of the length. At least one of the Cut Down votes was cast when the article was significantly shorter than it is now. TSP (talk) 01:17, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Re-Expansion of the John Allen Chau section

• My latest draft (278 words) (1.8 KB)
• DBigXRray's current draft (460 words) (2.8 KB])

What can we do about the size and balance of the John Allen Chau section?

There is a poll above in which almost every response says to cut down this section; with the exception of User:DBigXray's, and a few which were submitted when the section was far shorter than it is now. So I cut it down, but now it is as long as ever again.

DBigXray in recent additions of content says, "Restore quotes by Chau that are highly relevant for this contact"; "restore bribe and plans to evade coast guard, this is highly relevant discuss on talk".

So here I am discussing on talk. Neither of these things is highly relevant to the Sentinelese. This article is about the Sentinelese; Chau is only significant to this article in the context of his interactions with the Sentinelese. Whether Chau got to the island by 'bribing' fishermen, or exactly when and how he hired the fishing boat, and exactly what he mused about in his diary regarding his own reasons for being there, do not have a bearing on the Sentinelese islanders.

None of the added information is about the Sentinelese (I think in fact some detail about the Sentinelese has actually been removed, in the section about the first contact which previously related them approaching with unstrung arrows). Yes, some context is useful; but at one point it got to the point where less than 10% of this section actually related to actions of the Sentinelese. I added some more information about the Sentinelese from Chau's observations, and I thought got it reasonably balanced, but it's now back to the point where less than a third of the section is about the Sentinelese, and two thirds about John Chau, his family, the fishermen, the police, and so on.

How can we address this? There seems to be a clear consensus above to cut down the section, but some editors don't seem persuaded by it? Or think we need to cut it down, but somehow not like this? TSP (talk) 00:56, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

TSP, Please post your preferred version of the subsection on top of this thread, so that we can understand what version you want --DBigXrayᗙ 01:03, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• Update, TSP, thanks for adding the versions. The difference between the 2 versions can be seen here--DBigXrayᗙ 01:15, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

I think it's better to pare back unnecessary words rather than remove whole paragraphs, which can be contentious. For example, I removed Chau's words "you might think I'm crazy" and other extraneous stuff. I also think we can remove the amount of Chau's bribe as its size is not important. We can keep all of the important information but make the text more efficient. WWGB (talk) 01:12, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

That's what I've done in most cases - I noted that he travelled illegally with the help of local fishermen; I took out what he paid them and that they travelled at night. I think I left in the essential narrative, but avoided reaching the current state where over two thirds of the content is not about the Sentinelese.

But I just don't see what relevant information about the Sentinelese is contained in any part of, for example, the paragraph: The Washington Post obtained Chau's journal which stated that he had a clear desire to convert the tribe and was aware of the risk of death he faced, and of the illegality of his visits to the island. Chau wrote "Lord, is this island Satan's last stronghold where none have heard or even had the chance to hear your name?", "I think it's worthwhile to declare Jesus to these people. Please do not be angry at them or at God if I get killed ..."[48][49] - noting that we have already mentioned his journal, and said that he was a missionary there to convert the tribe, and that he had travelled there illegally. TSP (talk) 01:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

• User:WWGB I see that you have already trimmed this content, While I believe the amount is useful piece of information, I dont have very strong feelings against its removal. So I am still ok with the version that WWGB left.--DBigXrayᗙ 01:27, 27 November 2018 (UTC)